thanks for the link ... I bought some of these jars almost 20 years ago. Although used mostly for storage, I had been using them for my faux Claussen pickles, but have been unable to find replacement gaskets and one by one the jars had been tossed because of chips.
I saw some Ball 1- and 5- gallon bale closure jars, but they were labeled "not for food" -- LOL

re your pickles ... are they fully fermented after 8 days ... and do you keep them in the fridge or process them? after the month?

They are not fully fermented after 8 days even though might be quite tasty. The cooler temps after the 8 days allow other yeasts and bacteria to work their magic on flavor while increasing acidity.

I don't process, but keep refrigerated in a cold fridge. Personally, I think they could be stored in a cool basement for a couple of years, but we don't post unproven and possibly unsafe practices here w/o a warning. The fermentation will go on as long as the live bacteria have a food supply and the conditions are favorable. Processing will kill the bacteria and stop the fermenting. I have friends in the mfg end of fermented sauces and one of the fears of bottled sauce is that it will continue to ferment if improperly canned and explode into the face of someone that opened the bottle.

So, you don't start eating until a month after refrigeration? How fermented are they at that point.

I really like partially fermented (7 days at room temp and then in fridge) but am a bit concerned about the NCHFP study about this technique -- evidently some listeria survives after the 7 days. Fully fermented product seems to have killed off all the bad guys.

http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/papers/2004/04ift-picklesabstract.pdf

there's supposed to be a follow-up study but I can't get any info on when it's due.

incidently I recently ran across a recipe that used the heel from a loaf of rye bread with caraway seeds -- supposed to give a "mildly fermented flavor" \

Kay -- just trying to figure out how to get my favorite pickles without the 35-mile drive to my favorite deli in downtown Baltimore.

> So, you don't start eating until a month after refrigeration? How fermented are they at that point.

Kay,

I won't taste anything (ferments) that isn't at least 3.8 pH and I expect that is abt where the pickles will be at day 8 or even lower. Doing ferments like this w/o a pH meter is like playing Russian roulette. Must admit that I don't know diddly abt listeria.

jt

I think I read that the fermentation of cukes in brine produces lactic acid???

Listeria monocytogenes is generally associated with prepared foods, unpastuerized milk and cheeses made from raw milk. "L. monocytogenes can survive and grow in refrigerated foods with pH levels of approx. 4.0-5.0 and salt concentrations of 3-4%." -- NCHFP.

When you say 3.8 pH, do you mean you test the brine or do you test a puree of some of the cukes with brine? Do you know the brine percentage you are using?

Because of the drought here I haven't found any cukes worthy of all this attention, so I think I'll embark on some research this year... get a meter and hope for good weather and good cukes next summer.

Thanks for you info...

Kay,

Sorry, forgot abt this thread yesterday. Fermentation of pickles with or w/o a salt brine produces lactic acid.

I test the liquid part of the ferments. The salt concentration of the brine is not what I rely on to prevent unwanted fungi and bacteria from growing so I salt only for taste.

Bought a large bag of stringbeans for abt $2 and need to get them started fermenting soon. Stringbeans (not the French), sauerkraut and dill pickles are my favorite ferments by far. Today I hope to do a hot pepper and cantaloupe mash. I've yet to come up with a pepper ferment that I like as well as Tabasco sauce, but I keep trying.

jt

jt ... I know so little about this subject, I don't even know where to start ... is there a book?.. a web-site? or something that I can start from scratch?
Kay

Kay,

Mellyofthesouth & David in Colorado are the ones that got me started about a year ago and it was a quite a learning process especially because got so many weird ideas about improving things.

I have only 3 books on fermenting. "Kefir Rediscovered! The Nutritional Benefits of an Ancient Healing Food" by Klaus Kaufman, "Wild Fermentation" by Sandor Katz and "Making Sauerkraut and pickled vegetables at home" also by Kaufman.

And there are some painfully long threads here that I started on fermenting that pretty much chronicle my bumbling attempts and failures. I'm quite confident in my methods now and the only thing I want to do is get some university to test some of them.

jt

thanks, jt ...I'll see if I can find the Kaufman book on sauerkraut and pickles.
I hate to ask, but could you give me a step by step of the method you use for those beauties at the top of this thread.. I've order two jars just like yours just in case I find some worthy cucumbers.
-Kay

hey, jt there are two Kays trying to pick your brains about fermenting pickles ....

Kay,

Sorry!!!

I'm about 10 min from nuking my meal of the day and crashing. Just made a salad using EVO and red wine vinegar from one of my semi-vegan chile-head friend's suggestions. I'm a meat eater myself.

Please forgive me for waiting until the morning to reply. I'm dead tired.

JohnT

John, I just wanted to say I haven't found your previous postings "painfully long." I've very much enjoyed following your journeys into fermenting, with all their trial and error. The pictures have been a pleasure.

I've learned a lot. I appreciate what you've shared. Keep up the good work.

Carol

jt ... at your leisure. I do not think there's any chance I'll find any cukes good enough to ferment before next year... The rain was too late and still not enough to bring us out of our drought.
I have the entire winter to learn and plan.
-- just thought it was interesting that two Kays descended on you at the same time.
--Kay

I'm so much more comfortable chronicling what i do than giving instruction on how to do something for someone else.

For example this batch of pickles got off to a very fast start because of high summer temps. 85° instead of the 75°-80° that I would have preferred. Should be no matter as will just put in cooler basement temps a day or two sooner. (yesterday) Will watch at 65° for a day or two and then put into a 45-50° fridge for finishing. Maybe a month.

I want the fast start for sure. If temps are cool then I'll just put in more starter to speed things up at the start. This fast start takes the place of weighting down the cukes beneath the brine with weight to prevent contaminated air from causing scum and mold. It works.

I wedge the cukes into the jar so tightly that they stay below the brine.

If you prefer to weight the cukes below the brine in the conventional way, you can buy glass beads at a craft store and put in nylon tule bags to weight down. Inexpensive and efficient. And the conventional salt brine in a plastic bag is hard to beat. I don't use but most people do I think.

So buy hard cukes (gherkins, kirbys etc)
Wash them and punch holes at 3/4" intervals maybe 1/2" deep and nip 1/4" off each end of cuke. Eliminates the blossom end enzymes and allows the salty LAB to penetrate and feed.

Make sure a nice bubbly start is going on before moving to temps in the 60s for a few days & then more even cooler after a few days if is possible. I have a 45-50°f fermenting fridge, but a colder one in the upper 30s will work albeit slower.

telling me what you do is just what I'm after.
I figured out long ago to wedge cukes to keep below the brine ... I usually do it a jar at a time, so jars with shoulders are a must. I usually use a bale jar.
is this what you mean by "closed system"?
does scum form in a closed system? if so, what do you do about it?
Do you totally fill the jar with liquid?
This hooch ... is that the off-color liquid that floats on the sourdough starter?
HOw much salt do you use "for flavor" and when does it go in.
When do you test for pH.
Wow ... I'm just full of questions

In another thread Melly mentioned you had a Harsch crock .. what size and do you still use it.

THANKS .... Kayskats

By closed system I mean the cap gets screwed on or bale put in place and I leave it in place (usually) from start to finish (about 30 days give or take). Because I can see inside the jar there is no reason to open it up and let contaminated air in and the CO2 out.

Hooch is the brownish liquid that forms on top of active sourdough. Yesterday I was short on hooch so used a nice bubbly sourdough that I have been feeding. Made 2 quart jars of hot peppers/canteloupe mash.

A tsp canning or sea salt per pint for flavor is what I mostly use. Cukes are different because I have to use a brine mixture to fill the jar and I don't plan to drink the juice so it can be more salty for all I care. A heaping tsp canning salt per 2 cups distilled water for that brine.

Headspace is determined by what it is. A pepper mash or sauerkraut for example I want to leave plenty of room for when it froths so I can shake and bang the mash to bring all the little bubbles to the top so they can escape w/o pushing liquid and mash out. I make those rather watery on purpose. I prefer the shaking and banging over weighting down the ingredients. Just a personal choice thing.

Now I test for pH just before I open the jar for eating.

So far I have never had scum or yeast mold using jars. Knock on wood!

Not sure what size my crock is. I think about 1 1/2 gals. Nothing wrong with the Harsch crock now that we know how to use it. But I think that I will always use jars from now on.

jt

Here is a link that might be useful: Crock thread