is food safe when there is more head space than recommended

It depends on how much "extra" you are talking about. ;) An extra 1/2" of headspace is no problem (though not ideal) but several inches - no. Not only will it discolor but air is left in the jar that can encourage the growth of bacteria.

Insufficiently filled jars - a very different issue than loss of liquid during processing - shouldn't be processed but just be refrigerated as you said. OR just switch the leftovers to a smaller size jar and process it with the rest. EX: since salsa is done in pints if you have 1/2 a pint jar left over just pack it in a 1/2 pint jar and process with the rest.

Another alternative if only a small amount to fill it is needed is to make some extra juice to top it off with - just as one does with pickles by making up a half batch of brine. With salsa you can heat up 1/2 pint of tomato juice with 1 tsp. of bottled lemon or lime juice in it and top off the jar with it. It just makes that one jar a bit juiceier and can be drained off when opened if you wish.

Dave

I agree, use a smaller size jar if you need to.
I do hope you have not processed that salsa in quarts. It is not safe to do in quarts. Well, there may be one recipe that says quarts, I am not 100 percent certain. I would have to double check. Most all say 1 pint or smaller.
So, you are using a safety tested recipe from USDA ?
You can also freeze the extra salsa.

Head space isn't as critical as you may think. It can be slightly more or less than what is recommened. 'Slightly' means 1/8 to 1/4 inch differnces. Beyond an inch, and its headed to a level that may not be safe. I had a couple of quart jars with an inch and they plinked sooner than the ones that were 1/2 inch, so there was a good vacuum.

Slightly more or less headspace is OK, I sure don't measure mine with a ruler, but I've found that if there's too much my jars don't seal well anyway, or they come unsealed.

Like Linda Lou, I wouldn't try to seal half a jar of anything, I'd just use a smaller jar.

I've started doing all my salsa in pints, because my Extension Service recommended that. They can't tell me whether it's a quality or a safety issue, but since they are very "common sense" in such matters, I follow their advice. So, I recommend pints to anyone who asks me.

I can't imagine using a quart of salsa at a time anyway, LOL, we just don't use THAT much of it. Pints are a good size for me.

Annie

Annie,

We eat lots of salsa around here. Already eaten about 2-3 of the 13 gal. we've canned.

Thanks Ken for the advice. I do have a few jars with some slightly extra head space. From now on I'll make sure to eat those first. On jars that have too much head space, I've been pouring that into a bowl and putting it in the refrigerator.

This isn't a safety tested recipe from the USDA. I was worried about it at first, and posted my concerns on the forum. However, within the next couple days, I found a recipe in the USDA guide that has a greater ratio of low acid foods/tomato and uses the same amount of added acid, I've been using. So I think I'm OK on that part. I've also been checking the pH of the batches.

This isn't a safety tested recipe from the USDA. I was worried about it at first, and posted my concerns on the forum. However, within the next couple days, I found a recipe in the USDA guide that has a greater ratio of low acid foods/tomato and uses the same amount of added acid, I've been using. So I think I'm OK on that part. I've also been checking the pH of the batches.

Sorry but you can't compare recipes with any degree of safety and approval for one doesn't translate to any others.

What you are doing is just guess work and dangerous guess work at that. The pH testing, as it is quite unreliable and it doesn't remain stable over time, was explained in your previous post on this question in some detail.

As Linda Lou said then, you are playing Russian roulette with this salsa, especially so since it is eaten fresh from the jar. No recipe is worth that risk.

Your choice but definitely not something to be advocated.

Dave

I have to admit I am anal about head space. Don't use a ruler, but the screw bands on the jar. Plus I have a very old graniteware long neck canning funnel. I don't know why they don't make those anymore I love it, you can see the contents and see the head space no problem, plus there is literally no spillage on the rims.

I always prepare different sized jars.
If I am canning in quarts, I also prepare a pint or two and a 1/2 pint jars.
When I am processing pints I also have 1/2 pints sizes ready also.
1/2 pints I have 4 oz ready for filling if needed.
I ready the amount of jars recommended plus the extras.
Using the dishwasher, sometimes I use or not..so some jars are washed quite a few times before they are filled. Hey, they are glass and won't take on another life form shape after a few washings, lol

Dave wrote:

"What you are doing is just guess work and dangerous guess work at that. The pH testing, as it is quite unreliable and it doesn't remain stable over time, was explained in your previous post on this question in some detail."

Dave,

I'll have to disagree with you to some extent. Sure no instrumentation is fool proof, but we risk our lives to instruments all the time. Even in canning, we risk that the gauge on a pressure canner is accurate and calibrated. The low-temperature pasteurization treatment described in the USDA guide risks the thermometer is calibrated correctly.
True pH meters can be a little more finicky, and as such should be used with greater care. Things like never letting the bulb dry out, and calibrating with a fresh pH buffer packet before each test, are a given. When testing I also cross check the tester with a second known pH value as an added precaution. As far as the pH raising over time, I thought this was answered in the previous thread as well. Ken mentioned if it started out at below 4.0, it would probably be fine. Since I have the pH written down on each jar, I intend to re-test some jars after they've been sitting a while to know just exactly how much the pH will rise. My guess is it will rise very little, but I'll know for sure after several months.

I would like to know why one wouldn't be able to cross translate recipes somewhat. Not just safety rhetoric, but a logical reason why they won't translate. The recipe I'm referring to is the first salsa recipe listed in the USDA guide. It's the one that uses 5 lbs of tomatoes and a total of 3 lbs of onions and peppers. I'm using the same recipe, with less onions and peppers and adding two medium sized shredded carrots. But the total amount of low acid food is still less than 3 lbs. I'm adding the same amount of acidification, only using citric acid instead of vinegar.

Even in canning, we risk that the gauge on a pressure canner is accurate and calibrated.

Sorry but no, most of us use weight sets and regularly advocate that for all, not the gauge, for the very reason that gauges are notoriously inaccurate.

I would like to know why one wouldn't be able to cross translate recipes somewhat.

Logical reason - Because unless one has a background in food science and the attendant laboratory equipment one simply cannot anticipate and control for all the variables - and there are 100's of them.

In this case, one difference in the pH between carrots and that of onions and/or peppers (carrots have a much higher pH). The weight/amount of the vegetables is not the relevant issue here, the pH of the vegetables is. In addition to the tomatoes being low-acid so are all the other ingredients.

Also one has to consider the ranking of individual vegetables on the botulism scale - carrots like other root vegetables, being quite high.

Also where did you find a conversion table for amount of citric acid to use instead of 1 cup of vinegar? I wasn't aware that one existed outside of a lab. Which granular size of citric acid are you using as the acidity of the different types varies greatly? Are you pressure canning or BWB? How long? What size jars? Are your tomatoes peeled before use or included?

But we have no real way to compare your recipe, even if that were a valid approach, because we don't know your recipe. All we know is that it is an old, apparently incomplete, handwritten note I think you said, recipe from an unknown source. That is 3 red flags right there if I'm remembering correctly. Have you tried any of the legit salsa recipes for comparison? Perhaps you'd find some of them to be better?

Please understand that we have been though this debate so often here with those determined to use some old family recipe and there are literally 100's of discussions here on salsa safety. All we can tell them is that it isn't safe to do and why. They have the option of accepting that advice or rejecting it - OR submitting their recipe for formal testing in a food lab.

It's your choice of course but this approach to canning salsa simply isn't safe and others who might read this thread in the future need to know that.

Dave

Dave,

The specific information is closer to what I'm looking for, not the food safety mantra drilled into people's heads and repeated without any knowledge of the risks involved, or when exceptions increase the risks only nominally. In this case, I'm not only interested in the rules behind the process, but the why behind the rule.

In terms of using instruments. The USDA lists no prohibitions on gauge pressure canners. Neither have I reservations on the use of a pH meter that is cross checked for calibration each test. I know a guy on another forum who has a commercial kitchen license, and he has to trust a pH meter. If you personally wouldn't want to trust one, that's OK.

Of course I don't have to defend the recipe since you're not eating it, but some things come to mind:

Carrots are slightly higher in pH than onions or peppers. The relatively small amount used probably affects pH nominally. And again I'm verifying the pH.

Carrots may be more prone to botulism (I don't know how it compares to the other root vegetable, onions, but I'll take your word that carrots are more botulism prone) but my understanding is that botulism can't sporulate below 4.6. I found one reference that it can, but it had nothing to do with carrots. If you have references botulinus can grow on carrots at less than 4.6 pH, that's the kind of information I'm interested in.

The conversion table of citric acid to vinegar was found in the USDA guide. 4 tablespoons of vinegar = 2 tablespoons of lemon juice = 1/2 teaspoon of citric acid. The USDA didn't think it vital to specify a specific grade of citric acid to use, so I haven't concerned myself with it either. Our citric acid is food grade, Kosher.

Dave wrote:
"But we have no real way to compare your recipe, even if that were a valid approach, because we don't know your recipe. All we know is that it is an old, apparently incomplete, handwritten note I think you said, recipe from an unknown source. That is 3 red flags right there if I'm remembering correctly. Have you tried any of the legit salsa recipes for comparison? Perhaps you'd find some of them to be better?"

Sorry, but that sounds like rhetoric to me. As I recall the philosophical term for this rhetorical device is called the genetic fallacy. Regardless of where the recipe came from, this issue is how close it is to a safety tested recipe. I understand your view is that if it's not an exact match, the recipe is no good, but this has nothing to do with the author, whether it was hand written, etc.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I actually like the texture and body, the shredded carrots add to the salsa. It also adds some nice color variation. Unless I come across new information that significantly increases the risk of food poisoning, I'll continue to use the recipe.

Despite all the horror stories, home canning appears to be very safe, even though a large percentage of canners do not follow safety tested recipes, and even a significant percentage use open-kettle canning. I won't go through the statistics, because I'm sure you've seen them before.
http://www.pickyourown.org/home_canning_statistics.htm

In spite of these risky practices there are approximately 25 food-borne botulism cases in the U.S each year. (http://www.medicinenet.com/botulism/page2.htm) Given that 60% of households home can, it seems to me some of the safety fears are a little over-blown. I probably take more risk getting into my car, than eating our non-tested recipe.

You really kind of drew me off-topic, but I'm glad you did, I've learned more about the process.

Well, for another thing, the vinegar is also needed for proper density. You cannot check the proper density at home in a product. All those are important factors and part of the safety of a food. You may have the salsa too thick. This is why we teach to not drain off the liquid in a canning recipe unless it states to do so in a tested recipe. You are playing with the safety messing with the density.
The conversion of acid is for canning tomatoes, not other foods ! It isn't to be used in salsa or other things where the density will change. Even Elizabeth Andress, who wrote the USDA guidelines has told us to not substitute even canned tomatoes for fresh when they are called for due to the change in density. This was Elizabeth Andress's reply in an email my friend, another MFP sent to Ms. Andress asking her about the canned tomatoes in a spaghetti sauce recipe. She said the recipes are tested with those ingredients for not only ph, but for the safe density that allows for proper heat penetration.
That is why quarts of salsa are not safe to can, Annie. It is how the heat penetrates the quart jars. Just like other recipes you will see where only half pints or pints are listed, it is for safety due to density.
Yes, the ph can change as the food sits. We do not suggest using a meter and doing your own recipes. Not one of the other Master Food Preservers I know tries to test their own recipes and neither do I.
So, you do as you wish, but it is not recommended at all.
Dave also has a very valid point the ph of different vegetables plays a big part in the safety of a food.
Some people just like to take more risks than others. Guess you are one of them.
We teach that cooking is an art, canning is an exact science. Also, that there are cooking recipes and those designed and tested for safety. The two kinds of recipes are not the same.
Just my 2 cents worth for now.

In terms of using instruments. The USDA lists no prohibitions on gauge pressure canners.

Actually they do. Gauge canners have to be used at higher number of pounds for safety and also have to be tested and re-calibrated at least annually.

The conversion table of citric acid to vinegar was found in the USDA guide. 4 tablespoons of vinegar = 2 tablespoons of lemon juice = 1/2 teaspoon of citric acid.

As Linda Lou said that particular conversion rate is only for plain tomatoes. It does not control for any other low-acid vegetables. There is no conversion info available for vinegar to citric acid for any other recipes - too many variables - so it would be guess work.

Carrots are slightly higher in pH than onions or peppers. The relatively small amount used probably affects pH nominally. And again I'm verifying the pH.

Unlike acidic pH, alkaline pH interacts exponentially, not nominally.

Sorry, but that sounds like rhetoric to me.

That may be. Rhetoric has its place when discussing scientifically tested results vs. hypothetical results. If for no other reason then that the "rhetorical" results can be and have been replicated time and time again while the hypothetical results can't be.

But since comparable safe results would be so easy to obtain, your responses to this issue sound more like someone trying really hard to justify their personal methodology, not their results. Methodology that deviates from the accepted norm requires a great deal of justification and its safety will always be questioned. The more it deviates from the norm, the more justification required to try to legitimate it.

I sincerely wish you and your family safe food and good health but I honestly believe that this isn't the way to get it.

Dave

Olpea,

Thanks for the link related to canning demographics and statistics. I agree we need to apply logic and data when assessing the risk of our personal decisions.

Below are links to two other discussions from this forum on just this subject of botulism risk in home canning. It is amazing to me just how rare this disease is in spite of the millions of people who do not follow approved recipes and techniques. While I agree the "approved" methods are "safer", I am not convinced the "unapproved" methods are "unsafe". We each need to make our own decisions on the degree of risk we feel is acceptable, and facts are an essential part of these decisions.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/harvest/msg1211133824505.html
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/harvest/msg0314382417075.html

Also here is a link to a CDC published report titled "Foodborne Botulism in the United States, 19902000" which contains some very interesting statistics.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol10no9/03-0745.htm

TomNJ

Thanks for the links, read them and am even more scared. THANKS A LOT!! LOL. Really just kidding. My questions is, if you can not smell taste or see signs of botulism and you followed all of the proper procedures, what if you made a mistake and didn't realize it. What if a lid seems to be sealed and it wasn't just enough to let some nasty grow. I quess I could handle taking the risk if the worst was I might be in the bathroom for awhile, but death? I have canned a few things this year and I look at them and think I should just put them in the freezer just to be safe. Quite the dilemma.

In most cases lids will seal properly if the rim of the jars are wiped clean and the lids are taken from lightly simmering water. As most people know, the canning lids have a small dimple embossed in the center that will sink slightly concave, indicating a vacuum. If the jar was not sealed properly, the lid would be convex and the dimple would be more like a small round bump. Using added acids to otherwise low acid foods will reduce the risk of botulism. Just keep acid levels high and avoid cooking type recipes or any recipe that calls for more water than acid, or is very dense and lacks sufficient acid to protect it. My pickles all get the full strength 5% vinegar. Now, with the 20% vinegar, I can make a nice relish which I like as being thick. The 20% would raise the acid leevl quite high and not add more water to the relish. Some years ago, I had one peach pint that failed to seal. It had started a fermentation and leaked out some liquid, leaving a brown color mass inside. It was not realized until almost a year later. All the rest were fine. When I opened the leaky jar, I noticed a small chip in the glass at the rim sealing area. I tossed out that jar and its contents. Careful what you freeze, as the contents can expand and break the glass jars, no matter if there is a vacuum inside.

1) Use tested, approved recipes and follow the instructions. That way you don't have to worry.

2) If you are unsure of a recipe or if its steps aren't clear to you then ask BEFORE you begin or postpone making it until you can get the needed info.

3) Take a certified course in home food preservation.

Few seem to credit all of us who follow those 3 simple steps for the low incidence of botulism in home canned foods. Instead they use the low incidence as justification for deviating from the accepted practices.

Dave

If you followed proper procedures and the jar has its vacuum seal, you have nothing to worry about. You should always check for a sealed lid before opening the jar, and examine the contents for molds, off colors and off odors after opening. If the vacuum is lost the lid will pop up.

Botulism is very rare and the fatality rate is only 5%, so don't let a fear of death stop you from enjoying canning. Gain the necessary knowledge, follow proper procedures, and check for a vacuum seal, and you are good to go. You are in much much more danger driving a car.

That said, all home canners should be familiar with the symptoms of botulism poisoning. Botulism is a progressive descending paralysis that starts in the head and progresses downward. The first symptoms usually start with the eyes in the form of double or blurred vision, and then moves to the mouth with slurred speech, dry mouth, or difficulty swallowing. In severe cases it may then move into the chest with trouble breathing, leading to ventilatory failure and death. Other symptoms may include peripheral muscle weakness, abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. The gastrointestinal symptoms above are generally caused by other bacteria, which usually accompany botulism in spoiled foods and often lead to an increase in pH, off odors or colors, and loss of lid seal. Botulism symptoms usually begin 12-36 hours after consumption, but cases have been reported of onset from 6 hours to 10 days.

Untreated, the fatality rate is about 60%, but since the progression is relatively slow and the symptoms are quite noticeable and disconcerting, people tend to get to a hospital in time, which is why the rate is only 5% today. Treatment includes artificial respiration and an antidote to stop progression. Recovery can take months.

I realize any discussion of potentially fatal diseases can be scary, (almost as scary as the side effects stated in TV commercials for most common drugs :-), but again botulism is rare and should not keep you from canning. Just know the proper procedures and symptoms and have fun. If you just can't shake the fear, boil the food vigorously for 10 minutes before eating as this will destroy any toxin present.

TomNJ

Hi Dave,

"Few seem to credit all of us who follow those 3 simple steps for the low incidence of botulism in home canned foods. Instead they use the low incidence as justification for deviating from the accepted practices."

This forum, and especially you and Linda Lou, are a great and valuable source of information for the safest possible canning procedures, and certainly deserve credit for your efforts. But the fact is this forum reaches but a tiny fraction of the 20+ million home canners in the USA, and the majority of home canners do not take certified courses in home food preservation or exactly follow approved recipes and procedures.

The low incidence of botulism is not a justification for deviating from the accepted practices, but it is a comforting and somewhat confirming statistic for those who make an informed choice to follow methods they believe to be safe, although not "safest".

TomNJ

Tom - this forum is far from the only place to learn about safe canning methods. There are many other forums and discussion groups online and many of us here are regular participants.

Linda Lou teaches likely 30-40 classes a year, maybe even more, as do most all other county extension offices across the country. In addition, any county extension office answers phone questions and makes safe canning info sheets and books available at no cost.

State land-grant colleges and AG universities also teach certified courses and publish numerous books and pamplets on the process.

The 4-H, Girl Scouts, and the Future Farmers of America just to name a few organizations have provided certified canning courses 2x a year since I was a kid.

And of course NCHFP is readily available and free to anyone who is reading this. They also offer a free online course.

The educational opportunities are out there for anyone who wants them and most are free or for a nominal charge. So anyone who wishes to learn how to safely can food at home can do it. But it is a choice they have to make.

Dave

Thanks Dave, I had no idea such vast educational resources were available, and I don't doubt this has contributed to safer canning. Unfortunately surveys show most home canners continue to follow unapproved recipes and outdated procedures passed down from grandma or learned in older books.

I am a prime example. Having learned canning from an old book in the mid 70s, I proceeded to can a tomato salsa made with 10 times the amount of onions and garlic as currently recommended in approved recipes, and often added bell peppers and olive oil as well. For over 30 years I canned this recipe in a BWB with no added acid, and no spoilage ever. I found this site about three years ago and learned that I could improve safety by adding citric acid, eliminating the oil, and using a pressure canner. I made those changes, but I still use high onion and garlic portions because I like it. I now can it for 25 minutes at 15 lbs pressure and feel very comfortable that this severe processing is safe - maybe not safest, but safe.

There are still millions of people like me out there, some by choice and some by ignorance, yet botulism cases remain stubbornly low and steady for decades, especially for tomato products. This contributes to my belief that my methods are safe. Nonetheless I applaud your efforts to teach the latest knowledge and beliefs for maximum safety.

TomNJ

Tom, at least you are honest with what you do and you know there are risks. I do appreciate your honesty. It is your choice as to what you do in your kitchen. At least you have heard there are resources available. That is our goal, to reach as many as possible and help them out.
You would not believe the crazy things I hear ! Seems just when I think I have heard it all, then someone else comes up with something else.
With all the different strains of bacteria, food borne illness in even our fruits and veggies, varieties of different foods, etc. I am more concerned about the safety of our foods than years ago. So, just because things have worked in the past doesn't insure safety for today or tomorrow.
Some weeks I teach 3 days a week. I had to finally say no more for now. They wanted me to go up north and teach again. We could just keep going and going with lessons due to the higher increase in people wanting to learn to can. I am happy so many more are eager to learn, but I have to get my own food canned. Working on sugar free sweet pickles and beets today. Glad to see my pantry getting full again for another year.
Made some zucchini candy, too. Yep, zucchini candy. It is good, too. Like gummy fruit snacks. Cheap, as well.

Thank you Tom for the references you mentioned in an earlier post. Very informative.

While I too am thankful for proper canning techniques provided by folks on this forum, it is troubling there was no balance of risk assessment (at least in my case) until I was able to read the previous posts and statistics referenced by Tom.

In the little time, I've been on this forum, I've learned the pat answer for anyone seeking advice on a non-tested recipe is "dump, dump, dump", without any real assessment of the risk involved. In my case, I noticed of the 70 cases of of botulism reported in the ten year period referenced, only one involved salsa, and it was made with RAW VEGETABLES.(If you know of another case or two where someone was poisoned by processed salsa, no need to share it, the statistical probability is still zero) Sheesh folks, at least give us "newbies" all the facts before you tell us to "dump", so we can make an assessment of the risks.

It doesn't do to tell someone you're "unsure" of the risks. Newbies expect the more experienced folks to give them the straight dope. To tell a neophyte that you're "unsure" is the equivalent of telling a young child, "this peanut M&M may kill you if you eat it, we just don't know." What is a child supposed to do with that? (There are, in fact more peanut related deaths than botulism cases) As mentioned in one of the previous threads, this type of approach breeds cynicism.

I suggest a more complete picture of the risks be given, and allow the individual to make a more informed choice. A statement like, "As a disclaimer, I can't guarantee your salsa is safe, statistically, you have a much greater chance as being struck by lightening, than being poisoned by your salsa, but there is still a one in a 100 million chance your salsa isn't safe."

I'm not talking about obvious canning blunders, like the lady who inquired about a recipe she got off the Web telling her she didn't have to water bath peppers in vinegar, but issues about the "type" of citric acid, carrots potentially being slightly higher in pH, or that a small amount of citric acid changes the density of the product to make it unsafe, these are quibbling over non-issues. Yes, researchers like Elizabeth Andress may make a point of it, but many times experts are the first to make a mountain out of a mole-hill. Why? They're passionate about their jobs and there is frequently an emotional connection with what they're doing. Naturally, they want to feel the specific parts of their research and knowledge are valuable. Again, I'm not referring to dumb things like canning green beans in a BWB.

As has been brought up before, the "better safe, than sorry", just doesn't always work, when there are costs associated with safety. Risk assessment has to come into play. Do you eat red meat? Statistically, you're risk of death from e. coli is much higher than from eating a non-safety tested salsa recipe. I've seen it too often, where people will arbitrarily pick one area (though generally an area of interest) and advocate a zero tolerance for risk, while ignoring much greater risks in other areas of their lives. (I suppose there's even risk of food poisoning from ketchup left out on the table at restaurants, if it's uncapped and recapped and allowed to sit, but that generally doesn't stop people from grabbing it for their fries.)

Recommended dumping from non-tested recipes may make one feel like they've saved lives, but that should be balanced with the misery and despair they've caused in having someone dump their hard earned work down the drain, when in some cases, the statistical probability of the food being tainted is zero. All I'm saying is to give a "full" picture, and let the person make as informed choice as possible.

Lastly, please don't dismiss me as someone who is a big risk taker. I wear my seat belt, avoid going in areas of high crime, use safety equip., when operating power tools, etc. My 15 yr. old daughter took the initiative to can some spaghetti sauce, without my knowledge(she's an ambitious little lady). She had seen Dad do it, and wanted to get in on the fun. When I walked in on the process, she had her first jars in the BWB, and some sitting capped on the counter cooling. She had used canned tomato paste as her base, and added various things to it. It was also unclear how much citric acid she'd added. Nope, too many unknowns for my comfort level. That batch ended up going in the freezer.

Thanks Linda Lou. I truly respect the efforts you and Dave make to teach food preservation and improve safety. I have learned a lot from you both, even though I do take somewhat more risk than you teach. The selfless time you dedicate on this forum alone is commendable!

I am more fearful of other bacteria than I am botulism, and I'll bet most of the so called "24 hr viruses" and "stomach colds" that people suffer are caused by mishandling common foods in their kitchen. As a retired chemist I frequently lecture my wife to put food in the refrigerator quickly, and I set our refrigerator so cold it freezes milk on the top shelf. I also wash my hands before every meal and thoroughly scrub all vegetables before canning. It is easy to avoid food poisoning with a little knowledge and care.

Wish I had the land to grow enough veggies to can as much as you do. Right now I grow mainly tomatoes, garlic, onions and peppers to make tomato sauce, salsa, and soup. I hope to buy a small farm in southern Virginia in the next year, and then I can really pursue my gardening with vigor.

Tomorrow I'll make some nice roasted tomato marinara sauce, which I'll freeze since it will have lots of olive oil in it. Learned that from you guys!

TomNJ

Hi Olpea,

Excellent post! Very well worded and exactly what I have been trying to say for some time. A full and accurate perspective on risk will allow us to make our own personal decisions on safety, and statistics are a vital part of these decisions. A trillion-to-one risk is a thousand times safer than a billion-to-one, but that doesn't make a billion-to-one unsafe. The failure to prove something safe does not make it unsafe - just a basic law of logic.

Unfortunately most people don't have enough understanding of probability or feel for mathematics to be able to assess risk, and in such cases it may be better to put a little fear into them. For these people a precise set of detailed instructions from which they cannot vary may be best for their own good. Somehow we must shock them away from truly unsafe methods gleaned from outdated and unscientific sources, such as grandma. But for me, I've studied probability, mathematics and logic, and am more comfortable making my own assessments based on a full perspective of facts and statistics.

This forum allows multiple points of view, from which we can each take what makes sense to us. That is the beauty of the open and honest exchange the internet allows. This kind of discussion expands perspective for everyone.

TomNJ

Olpea - I fear you are expecting far more than is possible from a simple discussion forum about home canning. We are not trained food scientists here nor, as Tom said, trained in formal risk assessment. We aren't statisticians either though I can attest to how easily one can manipulate them to their advantage, whatever it may be.

A couple of folks here are professionally trained and several more have taken some courses and taught others, and many more have years of experience - all based on the USDA/NCHFP guidelines and the publications that result from them. None of that qualifies us to provide you with any scientific data or an assessment of the risk involved beyond what we have been taught or has been made available to all by USDA/NCHFP.

We don't just say "dump, dump, dump" and we do try to explain to the best of our abilities why and I regret that you find it to be "quibbling over non-issues". But since we rely on and cite the USDA guidelines and all the research they have done that's the best we can do. And thankfully most participants find it sufficient.

But if you find their research or data to be unsubstantiated then I'd suggest you take it up with them. Dr. Andress's email is available on the site and she has corresponded with us on several occasions.

If what you seek is a full picture of the risks involved and the scientific underpinings of the reasons for the existing guidelines then NCHFP and not this forum should be your source. They provide an extensive library of publications that will "allow the individual to make a more informed choice".

Dave

Tom and Dave,

You bring up some interesting points. Despite the subtleties in Dave's last message that seem aimed at trying to get me to go away, I thought there are some things that bear more discussion. There may be no more interest in this topic, if that's the case, the thread will die, as would be fitting.

First, Tom, your point is valid that extraordinarily large numbers are hard for anyone to conceptualize, as well as extremely small numbers. That's why it's hard for someone to get their mind wrapped around a probability of 10 to the minus 8. However, if someone is told many more people die from choking on home cooked food than from being poisoned by it, that's something people can sink their teeth into (no pun intended).

I think people are smart enough to be able to distinguish from things like canning corn in a BWB, from something like slightly altering a salsa recipe. I don't think there is a need to scare them into submission. There are plenty of people on this forum to sound the alarm, if they are doing something truly dangerous.

Dave, it doesn't take a degree in statistics to do risk assessment. We do it all the time, either subconsciously or consciously. I choose to do it consciously (when I can). Even when you advise someone to dump their food, they are making a risk assessment of the cost/benefit ratio. They when they go out to a restaurant, they subconsciously make another risk assessment of the safety of the restaurant food. (a real risk, by the way. I know a girl who contracted e coli from a fast food hamburger. While she did survive, she was on life support for some time, and suffered brain damage, never made a full recovery) My problem is the risk to an uninformed person may be wildly exaggerated in some cases. Even a seemingly well-intended disclaimer that, "your food may be safe, or it may not be" leaves one with the subtle impression that there is a 50/50 chance their food is dangerous, when in the case of salsa, there wasn't a single food poisoning in a probable sample size approaching hundreds of millions of jars of home canned salsa for the decade reported.

The manuals may teach that canning is an exact science, but the statistics simply don't bear that out. The surveys show that a significant number of canners do all kinds of "risky" things and aren't poisoned. The report by the CDC shows less than a handful of poisonings from canned acid foods. I believe the report showed only 4 poisonings from acid food for the ten-year period. One has to wonder if in those cases ANY acid was added to the food. Did you notice the cases that were described? People doing things like leaving uncanned salsa out on the counter in closed plastic containers, burritos left out at room temperature in plastic packaging, people opening up food that smelled and tasted bad, but eating it anyway. These people are being poisoned from doing completely idiotic things, not from slightly altering an acid food recipe.

Finally, as a point of interest, my salsa recipe (which deviates from a tested recipe in that it adds a few carrots and decreases a few peppers and onions, is still measuring below 4.0 pH. As a contrast, the tomatoes I canned yesterday have the same amount of added acid, and measure 4.34 pH. I canned this strictly "by the book, with a tested recipe. No, it's not a mistake in my meter. I check my meter with a fresh pH buffer packet before the test, to calibrate it, and again after the test, to make sure it's still calibrated. I also cross check it on a known pH solution, in my case, I cross check it with bottled lemon juice (my bottled lemon juice measures 2.6 pH, but I imagine there is some variation, depending on the brand.) One may wonder how tomatoes could be significantly higher in pH than the salsa which has added low acid foods. The answer is the tomatoes are canned in water. Our water has a very high pH (runs 9.4-9.6). Again this is not a mistake in my meter. I get an annual report from our water district that verifies these numbers. I wonder if the researchers have taken this into account? I'm not concerned about my salsa recipe, but I'm actually a little concerned about the safety tested recipe of the tomatoes. When I canned tomatoes today, I used distilled water, even though the tested recipe doesn't mention it.

the subtleties in Dave's last message that seem aimed at trying to get me to go away,

No, not at all. Just trying to point out that your apparent expectations aren't in line with what is feasible on a casual forum such as this where the focus is canning, not statistical analysis and such.

So just as someone with severe chest pain had best go to the ER rather than his neighbor, rather than writing off what is offered because it fails to meet your expectations, go to the source for more detailed info.

Honestly, most of us who are aware of them are happy to abide by the existing guidelines, within reason, simply because they have done all the research, done all the risk assessment so we don't have to and our food safety is assured.

But I also recognize that there are always those who for whatever reason want to push the envelope. That's fine. What isn't fine is to disregard or critique what info is offered here simply because it disagrees with what one "hoped" to hear.

So if what is provided here isn't enough then go to NCHFP. If that isn't enough and you want even more detailed explanations for why you shouldn't do something - ask the ones who did the research, the ones who developed the guidelines - contact Dr. Andress directly.

Dave

Again you've suggested I go someplace else. Against the backdrop of our highly disagreeable dialog, I can only assume it's more of a personal matter with you. Whatever gave you the impression I wasn't learning something from this forum? As stated earlier, I thought Tom's information was very informative. I've also learned some things from you, although it is difficult to get past your ego.

You continue to state I'm challenging the information, because it's not what I want to hear, a charge I deny. I try to submit to logical well reasoned arguments.

However, you may do well to ask yourself, if you don't like the information you offer "critiqued" is it because it's not what you want to hear? I thought forums allowed a diversity of opinion.

I'm sorry olpea as I honestly don't mean it that way but apparently that is how it comes across to you. All I'm suggesting is that you review of all the USDA/NCHFP literature available on salsa canning and that you may want to write to Dr. Andress directly for even more info.

Perhaps this info posted by annie today will be of interest to you.

Dave

Dave, I was just going to mention that article, which specifically addresses the pressure canning of non-tested salsa recipes, something we've discussed many times. Hopefully, it is as helpful to others as it was to me.

As I've stated before, I'm an advocate of giving everyone all the information and then letting them make their own decision. As intelligent and independent adults, we choose the risks we care to take every day, I think canning is just one of many.

So, I take the information I'm given and make my own choices, based partly on the recommendations by the experts and partly on the risk level. If I'm told that it's not recommended and I do it anyway, that's my choice. I'm just happy to have all the information available to me so I can make that independent and fully informed choice.

Thanks for the explanation on the quarts vs pints salsa question, LindaLou. I trust my extension agent to the point where I know she wouldn't tell me to do something without reason, so I did it. LOL Don't tell her that, she'll get a big head!

Annie

Olpea,

I just looked at the USDA approved salsa recipe you referenced and was astounded by the low ratio of tomatoes to low acid vegetables (onions/peppers/celery). This got me looking at various approved salsa type recipes.

Discounting salt & pepper and focusing only on the tomato to low acid veg ratio and the added acids, there seems to be some extreme variations allowed in approved recipes, even though each emphasizes not to change their recipe.

For example, the tomato/low acid veg ratios for three approved recipes are:

USDA/NCHFP Chile Salsa............5:3
USDA/NCHFP Chile Salsa II........1:1
Minnesota Tomato Mixture.............6:1

None of these recipes specify the variety of tomatoes to use, which can vary significantly in pH.

None of these recipes discuss how finely the low acid vegetables need to be chopped, so presumably they can be anywhere from very fine to very coarse.

None of these recipes specify whether you should use meaty paste tomatoes or juicy slicing tomatoes, so apparently different sauce thickness is also allowed.

The varying levels of low acid vegetables along with the varying chop size and varying tomato type makes for varying densities in the finished product.

The added acid for each recipe is the same per pint:

2 TBS Vinegar or
1 TBS Lemon Juice or
1/4 tsp Citric Acid

However, another version of the Minnesota Tomato Mixture at a different site even says that you do not need to add any acid provided you do not use tomatoes with a pH "near or above 4.6".

And all three can be processed in a BWB, in spite of most people calling for a pressure canning only of such mixtures with high levels of low acid vegetables.

With this much variation allowed among approved recipes, it seems to me that we have a reasonable degree of flexibility in making some sensible modifications to suit our individual taste.

TomNJ

Question Tom - both the Chili Salsa recipes have been lab tested but both call for 1 cup of vinegar (or bottled lemon or lime juice can be substituted since they are 2x the acidity of vinegar) so I can't follow your math. Can you clarify it for me please?

Please note that the Minnesota Tomato Mixture is a heavily disputed recipe when it comes to safety - many discussions here about it - as only U of MN Ext. tested it and it deviates from the norm. The closest USDA tested recipe to it is the BBB Stewed Tomatoes which does require pressure canning.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Both recipes call for one cup (8 oz) of vinegar and yield 8 pints, which is one ounce per pint = 2 TBS vinegar per pint. This is equivalent in acidity to 1 TBS of lemon juice or 1/4 tsp of citric acid.

Yes I see that the University of Minnesota recipe has been disputed on this forum, but I still have no reason to consider the U of MN Extension to not be a credible source. Or perhaps better stated, as a home canner seeing that a state university has tested, approved and published a canning recipe, I am apt to accept it as safe, as I'm sure are most people.

My point was simply that there are a lot of meaningful variations among approved recipes, yet each insists that their recipe cannot be altered.

TomNJ

Oke doke I see what you meant now. Thanks for the explanation.

Dave