They'll be fine.

Hostas are so much easier and more forgiving than roses! Yea, you may have to put slug bait down or spray Liquid Fence, but beyond that just add water!

I used to go through the same hoops with my roses.... bonemeal and a banana skin in each hole, spray every 3 weeks for blackspot, fertilize every month, spray inbetween for powdery mildew, etc etc etc.

Hostas you dig a hole, put em in, add water and enjoy.

Alexa

Dig them all up and carefully remove all of the bone meal, if not terrible things will happen. The main thing is root-node girdling, this requires getting all of the soil off the roots and digging little narrow holes for each root.

Or, leave them alone, go and sin no more you Rose Harlot.

Sorry, forgive me for casting the first stone.

EO is a card ...

THEY ARE HOSTA .... dig them up .. leave them on the driveway for a month ... they dont care ... and they probably dont care about a little bone meal ....

let me sum it up this way ... you could have bought another hosta with the bone meal money .... so next time.. just buy the hosta.. and walk past the amendment aisle ...

ken

I'm with Alexa,dig a hole, plant the hosta,water in,mulch and walk away. Phil

I think I am missing something here.Adding Bone Meal is bad?Its 6-12-0.Which gives a little added nitrogen for foliar growth and you got phosphates to promote added root growth.I am not sure where the negatives are.I am curious as to the negative effects of Bone Meal are. Phil

as i tried to say .... the negative effect is the waste of money.. you could otherwise spend on hosta ....

if you have a 55 gallon drum in the garage ... use it up .. everything in moderation ...

if you have to buy it.. skip it... add mulch as esther suggests ...

or just water the beegeebees out of it ... and skip even the mulch

ken

Oh, you guys, here we go again. A little analogy from sassy me . . .

If I made me a dress, it would be an OK dress, but if I added sparkles and ribbons and ruffles and lace, it would be a spectacular dress. So it goes with plants, feed them the N-P-K and minerals, they rise beyond good plants to WOW plants.

"I am curious as to the negative effects of Bone Meal are."
Pumkin

It is the lack of positive effect, those rose growers get pricked so often they need blood meal not bone meal. Many have demostrated that hosta need nothing but organic matter on the surface and it is backed up by University Research.

So it goes with plants, feed them the N-P-K and minerals, they rise beyond good plants to WOW plants.
Maryann

Most of the fertilizer knowledge comes from row cropping of cereal crops where we nearly kill a field so we can grow corn then we must feed the soil because we've taken away the soils ability to support life. And fight tooth and toe nail against pest and disease.

Poor soil has about 100,000 organisms per gram; a GRAM! While rich soil may have 3,000,000,000 organisms, I got the zeros right. It is counter intuitive that we could grab a bag of NPK and help a system this complicated. But the main thing is chemical NPK interferes with this system. Because one can keep a few saltwater fish does not mean we can create an ocean. The same is true of the soil.

Three things you lose with chemical fertilizer are health, vigor and money. You may interfere with the soil organisms it is the healthy soil that will lead to healthy plants that resist pest and disease.

I've shown pictures over and over of plants you can't jump over that have never had anything but organic matter to eat. Spent two years reviewing 2500 research papers done by the USDA, search USDA/humus knock yourself out. Every one concluded organic matter is the secret.

Much of the research has shown that plants with chemical fertilizer are not as healthy and disease resistant or drought resistant.

My wife is an excellent seamstress, just came back from Paducah where she won prizes for her quilts and she has never used fertilizer to make her needle work WOW? Apples and oranges!

Seriously I recommend that anyone who enjoys his or her gardens search "Soil Food Web", much to know, in fact too much for my little brain.

Shut up Butch they didnt sign up for this lecture! Ken could have said all this with 4 lines 12 words or less each sentence.

"It is the lack of positive effect, those rose growers get pricked so often they need blood meal not bone meal. Many have demostrated that hosta need nothing but organic matter on the surface and it is backed up by University Research."

esther opal

Can someone give me references or links to the "University Research" that says "three things you lose with chemical fertilizer are health, vigor and money" and supports a statement that use of fertilizer will show no positive effect?

Here is conversation I had with Dr Elaine Ingham Oregon State soil biologist about chemical nitrogen. When you finish this get back to me and well talk about mycorrhizal fungi.

Nitrogen is stored in the organisms in the soil, and in the organic matter in the compost. As Krasilnikov said, 75% of the nutrients in soil are stored in the microorganisms. We have to feed soil microbes, so they can perform their storage function. But by tying up nutrients in the soil bacteria and fungi, then these nutrients don't leach out of the soil when snow melt occurs. Or when irrigation events are performed in the summer, or in any event where water moves into the soil and past the root system. Inorganic forms of N are the most leachable forms of N. And therefore really stupid to have in soil, unless you really want to destroy water quality. . Nitrate, nitrate and ammonium are highly leachable. If the soil becomes anaerobic, then these aerobic forms of N are converted into the anaerobic forms of N, and lost by volatilization. I have to laugh at a number of soil scientists who have actually said that nitrate is not leachable in heavy clay soils that are saturated with water. First of all, in saturated soil, oxygen is likely limited, and the soil will be anaerobic. Nitrate is not present in these conditions, so of course it isn't leachable.
In anaerobic conditions, inorganic forms of nitrogen are converted to anaerobic forms of N, and is lost as ammonia (smelly!), or as nitrous oxide, for example. Nitrate isn't leached in anaerobic conditions, but it sure is being lost! But, back to Butch's question. In soils with good organic matter, N is retained in the bacteria and fungi, stored for later nutrient cycling by protozoa, nematodes, and microarthropods. These cycling processes produce plant available forms of N, in the place, time and amounts the plant needs. Hope this helps! Elaine
Nitrogen fixing plants are symbiotic with Rhizobium.

This bacterium fixes N using the plant's carbon. The bacteria in the nodule get the fixed N first. Once their N-requirement is met, then the plant gets the fixed N, but that N is not in the form of nitrate, nitrite or ammounium. It is given to the plant as a kind of protein usually.

The plant then has elevated N in it's tissue. It does not release that N as nitrate - it has spent way too much carbon to obtain that N, and so that N is retained in the plant.

And thus legumes, or even plants where free-living N fixing bacteria are present in the soil, will have higher than usual concentrations of N.

The C:N of a plant where nodules are active is 10:1 usually. Maybe 20:1. And so legumes can serve in the place of manure, or other high nitrogen containing materials.

Usually free-living N-fixing bacteria don't result in elevated N in the plant. When the bacteria are eaten by protozoa or nematodes, then the fixed N is released into the soil as mineral forms.

The key point is the last line which says is that even low levels of chemical nitrogen interferes with nitrogen-fixing enzyme system.

"One beneficial process carried out exclusively by soil microbes is called nitrogen fixation, the capture of inert N2 gas (dinitrogen) from the air for incorporation into the bodies of microbial cells. In one well-known form of this process, symbiotic nitrogen fixation, soil bacteria such as Rhizobium and Bradyrhizobium actually inhabit specialized structures on the roots of leguminous plants (soybeans, cowpeas, beans clovers, etc.) where they fix substantial quantities of nitrogen that becomes available to the host plant. Unfortunately, the root nodule system is not found in the grasses so we cannot rely on it for "free" nitrogen. Nevertheless, free-living (nonsymbiotic) nitrogen-fixing bacteria do associate with roots of grasses where they fix small quantities of nitrogen using carbon compounds (root exudates, sloughed root cells, etc.) produced from the roots as energy sources to drive the energy-expensive nitrogen-fixing enzyme system. Another factor limiting the utility of free-living N2 fixers is the fact that they will not fix N2 when exposed to even very low levels of fertilizer nitrogen".
David A. Zuberer Soil Microbiologist Texas A&M

Gees, all I wanted was a simple YES or NO.
But thanks for the information.
I would like to discus this , but another time.
I have also ran test of fert on roses. In 30 years of growing them I have killed my share of them.
Thanks again. phil.

Gees, all I wanted was a simple YES or NO.
Phil

I don't know anything about roses but I "think" they are so removed from their natural element and they were hybridized down hill like the German Shepherd to the point that they needed specialized treatment.

I just returned from dinner with my grandson who told my wife, "PaPa talks to much"!

Just so no one is confused, Bone Meal is an organic additive.

M-A

Just so no one is confused, Bone Meal is an organic additive.

M-A

True, but my research says that almost no ones soil needs it. Alfalfa, corn gluten and other organic additives have glowing reports by some but I don't think the results are worth the cost.

"The key point is the last line which says is that even low levels of chemical nitrogen interferes with nitrogen-fixing enzyme system." ester opal

Oooooo-kay. I read all of your cut-and-pasted statements, and understand them, but they have NOTHING to do with my question, and are completely unrelated to the original poster. Further, none of them say that "chemical nitrogen interferes with nitrogen-fixing enzyme system."

By the way, what is "chemical nitrogen"? Your previous post indicates that nitrogen fixation occurs through nitrogen fixing bacterial systems (which is correct), not through some "enzyme system."

Seriously, if you don't understand what you are cutting and pasting, please don't post it--it's just confusing to people who are trying to understand.

Bone meal is fine to use on hostas. For an extra boost this time of year, a little epsom salts will cause a nice growth spike as well.

Homer, did you not know that it was clear from your first post that you were looking for a fight. If you like I will go over what you don't understand from my post off list.

If you will take these things to any soil scientist and report how I'm wrong. If you have credentials in this area then present them and give me the chemistry.

By the way are hosta feeding now? Are they able to use anything we give them now? You need to know this about hosta horticulture to prove your assertion that they will get "a nice growth spike as well", now?

"Homer, did you not know that it was clear from your first post that you were looking for a fight." esther opal

I am not looking for a fight. I'm just looking for support for the statement that you have been making for the years that I have seen you posting here (previously under the name wilddog) about all the "University Research" that shows that use of fertilizers destroys the soil web. I truly am interested to see the research that says that, and it is fair to ask for that if you are going to support your statment by saying the research exists.

"If you have credentials in this area then present them and give me the chemistry." ester opal

Why are we making this into a credential competition? If you want my credentials, why haven't you given yours?

"By the way are hosta feeding now? Are they able to use anything we give them now? You need to know this about hosta horticulture to prove your assertion that they will get "a nice growth spike as well", now?" esther opal

Actually, you don't need to know the answer to your question to know that adding epsom salt, magnesium sulfate, to the soil during active growth will increase vigor and color because magnesium is one of the rate limiting micronutrients required for production of chlorophyll. You can add some to the soil on one hosta and leave it out on another hosta and watch the difference. Unless your soil has a naturally large amount of magnesium, the extra magnesium from epsom salts will be much appreciated by your plants. (for support, see, e.g., University of Idaho's publication: Northern Idaho Fertilizer Guide by Mahler and Barney--"epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) or. potassium-magnesium sulfate. ... helps give the plants early vigor).

My point here is that the original poster wanted to know if adding bone meal is detrimental. Your first two posts say that it is detrimental. Your third post says it is not beneficial, but won't hurt, and your later posts are just gobbledygook unrelated to the question. Lots of people are indicating that they are confused.

I'm just trying to give a sensible answer, and trying to learn. However, your posts don't allow me to verify your statements, because your later posts do not relate to your first two statements, and you will not give me publications that I can read to understand where you are coming from.

I agree with Esther_Opal on one point only. I am refering to:
Just returned from dinner with my grandson who told my wife, "PaPa talks to much"!
HostaManfred

Looking for info on bone meal, try Google: in the search line enter:
advantage +"bone meal" or cut and paste below:

http://www.google.com/search?q=advantage+%22bone+meal%22+&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

If you agree with wild dog then search for:
disadvantages +"bone meal"

Lots of references, lots of research etc.
All in all, I find only one negative aspect: Cattle bones from industrial countries like ours contain higher percentages of industrial waste, including mercury, lead etc. and should not be used in vegetable gardens. The hostas don't care. If the deer eat the hostas, them don't eat the deer.LOL
Manfred

Homer,
My main point in suggesting that additions are most often NOT needed and to add things without a LOT of careful analysis is harmful or useless. Much of the recommendations for amendments come from some cropping program like the Idaho guide.

Your Idaho reference is of course very precise and Im sure accurate but it is based on Northern Idaho, which probably has some specific soil profiles. They further give specific applications based on soil test for specific crops and state that the recommendations are only as good as the soil sample.

If the nitrogen-fixing organisms are working they will provide nitrogen.
To add chemical nitrogen such as ammonium nitrate interferes with this process, doesnt help and hurts.

The main source of phosphorus is fungi, the main one is glomales (Dr Sara Wright, USDA) and the VAM fungi and to add phosphorus will interfere with their symbiotic relationship with the plants.

Lime, Epsom salts, sulfur, etc may be called for but only after careful analysis of soil samples and those samples have to taken carefully and analyzed by a good lab to make recommendations.

There is a simple answer that works for the hobbyist, organic mulch on top of the soil will work and this is backed up by a lot of direct field trials at Universities.

For the amateur, who includes me to be adding things, is a waste of money, time and is more likely to cause harm than good.

If you care to take me to task then challenge the last sentence.

Looking for info on bone meal, try Google: in the search line enter:
advantage +"bone meal" or cut and paste below:

http://www.google.com/search?q=advantage+%22bone+meal%22+&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

If you agree with wild dog then search for:
disadvantages +"bone meal"

Manfred I took your post as honest and serious so I did search as you suggested and found many references banning the use of bone meal by the US and UK and Australia. I could not find any work recommending the use of bone meal.
So, I further searched the USDA+bone+meal and found the same cautions against using bone meal about mad cow disease so I searched USDA+bone+meal+agriculture and could not find recommendations for use.

Conclusions of this review of available material is I think you are screwing with me? So, I googled Manfred+screwing+with+esther which referred me to gardenweb where I found clear indications that you are in fact screwing with me without purpose or clear positive results

Sooooo,Phil from Ohio are you using bone meal or not? LOL
I feel like I just attended a bio chemist class that I didn't sign up for and I think I'd flunk the exam - if there was one.
Very confusing!!!
Personally I usually throw some (a very small amount) bonemeal in the bottom of the planting hole to help the roots grow (that's what the package says it's good for). Can't say whether it's useful or not but I don't think it's detrimental to the plant. So there. Haven't seen Ken weigh in on this post but he'd probably say "just give them WATER"

They are Hosta right? We are just gardeners, enthusiasts, hobbyists aren't we? Relax and enjoy this beautiful plant and others.

June

Sooooo,Phil from Ohio are you using bone meal or not? LOL
June

You get it, LOL, in the end it is all for a LOL, your own. I say what I think is so and why then laugh all the way back to the potting shed. Some that me more seriously than I take myself.

Is it a full moon?

SOOOOOOOOO......

did i waste my money by putting "shake and feed" on the whole garden???....

and PLEASE....only the "kindergarten" answer........cryminelly anyways......

jill

If it made you feel better, then no it isn't a waste of money. Did the hostas need it? Maybe not, but it didn't do any harm so sit back, relax and enjoy your beautiful plants.

Whatever you do, don't let the resident troll upset you.

Alexa

Don't you hate it when these posts go south?

Phil, I'm one who digs holes and plops them in. I must say, most of my hostas look lovely. But if I did add bonemeal when I planted them, I wouldn't worry.

And I've found that if a hosta isn't doing well, it's usually due to it's location. I move it, and taa daa! that's all it takes.

hosta need water in decent soil ....

man/woman need hosta ....

walk by the amendments at the store and buy more hosta and water them ...

if you have mulch add that to the mix ...

EVERYTHING ELSE is gravy ...

my analogy ... i like cheesecake... i am a purist ... i want plain old good cheesecake ... i don't need berries.. i don't need chocolate.. i don't need spices.. etc ... just give me plain old cheesecake ...

and another .... i don't amend.. my SS will only grow to 4 feet high .. van wades to 6 feet ... do i really need the extra 2 feet ... or can i buy another hosta with the money from the fert ... i wont even address planting dead animals under it .. lol ...

IMHO ... use the money to buy more hosta .... and use up whatever you have left in the garage in moderation ... and dont replace it.. just buy more hosta .... ken

Hey Butch! You forgot to search for the advantages! And screwing with you ? NO. Rattling your cage ? YES. Please just answer peoples questions on this forum and don't try to snow them with unsubstantiated "facts". A random sampling from 106,000 hits on: advantage +"bone meal"
(had to reduce URLs to plain text)
Hewitts_Home/You_Cant_Beat_Bone_Meal :
The steamed, sterilized phosphorus in bone meal is not a chemical fertilizer and is not soluble at all. Bone meal MUST be mixed into the soil at planting time so the roots of the plant will grow into and through the bone meal. This provides the plant with a source of phosphorus that the plant can use as it needs.
Extreme Green Gardening :
Considered the best natural source of phosphorus, bone meal also contains calcium and some trace minerals. Steamed bone meal (1-13-0) is a non-feed grade product made by steaming ground bones for 1.5 hours at 260 degrees F. The fats and tallow melt out and some nitrogen is lost. The extremely slow availability of nutrients from bone meal make it a very safe fertilizer, especially when planting of potting very young or new plants Bone is used as a long-lasting source of phosphorous as well as low levels of nitrogen, potassium and calcium.
innovations-report.:
Meat and bone meal (MBM) contains mineral elements essential for all organisms, typically 6-8% Nitrogen (N) and 5-6% Phosphorus (P). Phosphorus is essentially short lived and non renewable.
Mid-Hudson Vegetarian Society :
Bone-meal is a slaughterhouse byproduct. In addition to being non vegetarian, we hear that now organic growing is on the increase, bone-meal is being imported from South American countries where cattle ranching is helping to destroy the rainforest!
arizona edu gardening :
When using horse, cow or hog manure before planting, mix in a minimum of 25 pounds of manure per 100 square feet. For best results, supplement each 25 pounds of manure with 2 to 3 pounds of ground rock phosphate or raw bone meal. Poultry and sheep manure should be applied at the rate of 12 pounds per 100 square feet, and supplemented with 1 pound of rock phosphate or bone meal.
plantanswers - earthkind :
Bone meal is a good addition to the compost pile because it is high in nitrogen.
juniperandsage garden : Phosphorous is important for strong root growth, brighter, more beautiful flowers and good growth in general. Plants lacking this element show small, thin, purplish, stunted growth and have sterile seeds. Organic supplements include rock phosphate, bone meal, cottonseed meal, and cover cropping with sweet clover and alfalfa.
mimi gardening phosphate :
Incorporate 1 handful of rock phosphate or bone meal per peony to be planted. If the soil is acid, apply some limestone several weeks before planting.
mastergardenproducts : Before Planting: Cow, horse, hog ? A minimum of 25 pounds per 100 square feet (about 5 tons per acre) of garden soil. For best results, supplement each 25 pounds of manure with 2 to 3 pounds of ground rock phosphate or raw bone meal. Use up to 1 pound per square foot.
motherearthnews Gardening Tips-for-Where-You-Live
Many soils in the eastern mountains are acidic, which is easily modified by mixing garden lime into the soil. Rock fertilizers, such as lime, need time to become integrated into the soil, but theyre so cheap and long-lasting you might want to include them in your first dig-in. In addition to lime, you can add gypsum (for calcium), bone meal or rock phosphate (for phosphorus) and granite dust (for potassium).
professorshouse - organic-gardening
My formula that replaces purchased fertilizer is a combination of blood meal, bone meal, and dolomite (or agriculture lime) in equal proportions. I mix it into the soil at the time of setting the young seedlings or planting the seed.

Manfred

All this time I thought Esther Opal was a ladies name and thast your were a lady. My mistake.
I was beginning to take you serious until you stated that garbage about roses. Then I knew you were just a lonely old man with nothing to do but irritate people on line.
And you really don't know any thing about roses. And I doult if you know much about Hosta.
Ohio phil

And you really don't know any thing about roses. And I doult if you know much about Hosta.
Ohio phil

You are half right, I've never grown a rose in my life. They are way to difficult for me.

I'm not even going to try to grow a rose......I'm the woman who can kill three trumpet vines. I'm not sure how I did it.

Yes it's true - the dreaded trumpet vine can be killed - by someone who is not even trying!

Hhmmm...My question has nothing to do with amendments...I don't do them...never have...nor do I use >chemical

"especially when planting of potting very young or new plants"
Manfred

I did over react, point taken! As to not answering questions I do attempt to.

This 1st point is one of the things I'm talking about, much of the fertilizer recommendations refer to pot culture or row cropping. Bone meal, lime, gypsum are seldom required in most soils. If you look at the area around your garden and plants seem to be growing well then the NPK and Ph are ok and will not need help. The nitrogen-fixing organisms are working and fungi are delivering the phosphorus unless we interfere. Organic nitrogen and slow release phosphorus will be taken down slowing by the soil organisms as needed by the soil by the process called selection.

I'm saying again that many of the things we do "for" our plants are not required and I AM saying that chemical fertilizers are often more harmful than helpful. Bone meal is not chemical fertilizer and I'm sure will cause no problems unless you have the REALLY unusual soil that is very high in phosphorus. A healthy soil system is a bit of a closed loop with nothing else really required except maybe organic matter in the form of mulch. I prefer the product from recycling centers because it is so varied that one can expect it to have everything the soil may need.

I did in fact google as you suggested and only found the problems reported about bone meal and "mad cow disease", I skipped the commercial sites because they are selling something and may be just hawking their wares.

All you say is true and we are talking about apples and oranges, I think.

Butch, thanks for response. You know, regarding soil amendments, like so many other things, if you believe in them they work.
Soil chemistry is much beyond most of us, we don't have a clue what goes on below the surface, and we don't care. Please don't laugh, but I used to put neutra lime, alfalfa, green sand, spagnum peat, shredded leaves, sand, 12-12-12 etc. etc. into every freshly tilled bed. My hostas grew, but don't ask which items I safely could have left out.
Manfred

Manfred,
Let me try to give a brief history of my travels down the soil path over about 15 years.
I owned a community recycling center so I talked to many in that business and learned a lot about "compost"
Then I spent 2 years studying the work of USDA researchers working on humus, where I encountered Dr Sara Wright�s work on fungus. 2500 or so field studies about humus.
Then searching all over the net about the soil.
Then spent a year or so following Dr Ingham�s work on Activated Compost Tea, which started with her work on the soil food web.
Then a bunch of tree huggers working on organic gardening.
There is much in between but these are the high lights.
Everywhere I went I found one common thread that the soil is unbelievably complex and capable of growing without our help.
Then of course, HOW?
Then what helps and what hurts, many many have shown that our intrusion into the underworld hurts more than helps.
Finally, I�ve come to don�t do much of anything unless you have clear proof you need to.

Wow, I see I missed out on a lot since last I checked. Esther Opal, unfortunately, I still do not see any references or links to verify statements you have made, which I was really hoping for. I think I can get behind your statement that "the soil is unbelievably complex and capable of growing without our help," and some of the more moderate statements you have made since the original post.

However, the main issue I have with some of the statements you made earlier, and some of the additional statements that I see, is that you have a strong opinion on gardening philosophy that shades your forceful responses . . . many of which you cannot back up with citation to the research you say supports them.

I think you very aptly point out where our difference in opinion/philosophy lies when you ask me to take you to task for the statement, "For the amateur, who includes me to be adding things, is a waste of money, time and is more likely to cause harm than good."

For me, what is a waste of money may not be a waste of money to someone else. That is purely a judgment call and an opinion. Some people want the biggest and fastest growing hostas, and others just want to plant them and not have to ever touch them again. It is entirely a difference in gardening philosophies that people should be welcome to have without being criticized or blasted about.

Further, I do not believe that using fertilizers or organic amendments in moderation is more likely to cause more harm than good, especially with the guidance of a decent soil test from your local extension office. While I agree that there are nitrogen and phosphorous fixing organisms in the soil, that does not mean that they can produce nitrogen or phosphorous at the highest levels that can be used by plants. Plus, we do not exactly have a wild ecosystem in our gardens . . . these are maintained properties with much of the organic matter (dead leaves, etc.) being removed each year, so nutrients will be carried away and will have to be replaced in one fashion or another--and we are planting plants in our soil that are not even native to our continent.

I know you have serious problems with modern agriculture and some of the practices used, and that you believe we are making things worse in the world because of it. I have some reservations about some of the practices myself, but you also have to admit that without the advancements in agriculture that you are eschewing here, much of the world would starve. Things are not always black and white.

Current agriculture is all about maximizing productivity with the least amount of land, labor, and cost. Think about that . . . it is not completely foreign to what many of us do with our gardens, as we have limited space, time, and money, but we want the biggest, most floriferous plants in that small space and time with the least amount of work.

There should be room on this forum for people to discuss fertilizing and sharing their practices without having far-out comments made about how they are wasting money and harming their plants, and the soil, particularly when the posters calling those people out cannot come up with any peer reviewed research to support this proposition. Let's try to present information in a way that does not involve name calling, preaching, and enjoy our common love of gardening, shall we?

Oh, except for you rose harlots. (just kidding)

I never really thought about what bone meal was made of. Poor cows! I don't usually even wear gloves when I handle it. I'm not going to end up with mad cow disease from inhaling the dust am I? Totally grossed out here! Thanks for letting me know hostamanfred!
Erin

Homer, let pick some of the points that you question or disagree with, it seems more that you feel my statements are to strong or I havent supported them sufficiently to justify my strong position.

Quick definition; difference between chemical fertilizer and organic fertilizer. Chemical mainly petroleum based versus things like alfalfa or say Milorganite and bone meal.

The references to the conversation I had with Dr. Ingham when she went into detail about why not to use chemical fertilizer because it is a waste of money in many cases and interferes with the soils nitrogen-fixing organisms. I also gave the reference to Dr Zuberer, which supported Dr Ingham. To Dr Ingham, I studied at her feet for over a year and did not and may not be able to quote everything I once knew. Since Im not writing a book I didnt keep everything I read on the subject but I went to all manner of sources to support the things I was being told. A good source of information is Terra Preta "black soil" where the University of Ga found adding chemical fertilizer to their test sites reduced growth.

I think I told you that I spent 2 years reading everything I could find at the USDA about organic matter, some 2500 abstracts where I found many test sites where the main thing was organic matter and chemical fertilizer was a problem or expense of limited value.

"For me, what is a waste of money may not be a waste of money to someone else."
It is either a waste of time or not, now I may not know but I say it is and why. "used in moderation" would only mean less of a waste.

I expected you to look into when hosta start to grow and need fertilizer which would show that early fertilizer would be a waste even if they need it.

"Plus, we do not exactly have a wild ecosystem in our gardens . . . these are maintained properties with much of the organic matter (dead leaves, etc.) being removed each year, so nutrients will be carried away and will have to be replaced in one fashion or another"
All true but once the plant is planted we can do little to change the soil the plant is planted in except add organic matter on the surface.

It is entirely a difference in gardening philosophies that people should be welcome to have without being criticized or blasted about."
Who and how did I criticize or blast, quote it, If I did I didnt intend to, which doesnt mean they didnt feel that way and if they felt that way then I have a part in it.

"I have some reservations about some of the practices myself, but you also have to admit that without the advancements in agriculture that you are eschewing here, much of the world would starve."
I think if we dont change our agriculture practices we will starve and many of the advances are short-term gains for long term loses. If you take the time to look into Terra Preta we may have a real answer. The entire system is carbon neutral!

"but we want the biggest, most floriferous plants in that small space and time with the least amount of work"
And, Im saying chemical fertilizer interferes with just that, negative not positive effect.

"without having far-out comments made about how they are wasting money and harming their plants, and the soil"
From my study your position is far-out and Im not preaching since Ill say clearly what I believe and tell you why, which is the same as a preacher who says believe and here is the Biblical reference. I cant say different because of what I have studied, you dont give me research that refutes what I understand, you have said that I dont give sufficient references to prove my point and you havent given any to disprove it.

I think in the end you want me to be nicer about what I say not so much that you disagree.

Hey, Butch, you still have not once given a single citation to support anything you say. You are correct in one thing, though, I believe that a lot of people would appreciate if you were nicer in the way you approached others.

Just to clarify, being belligerent and mean does not make you right. Since you cannot support the first statement that I have asked you to support, and since you continue to waffle on exactly what it is that you assert, I can only conclude that you really don't know what you believe.

So, in the end, I do believe that I disagree with you, but I cannot be certain because you are constantly changing what you have to say.

Help me out here, which one do you really believe:

Esther Opal Post 1: "Dig them all up and carefully remove all of the bone meal, if not terrible things will happen. The main thing is root-node girdling, this requires getting all of the soil off the roots and digging little narrow holes for each root."

Esther Opal Post 2: "'I am curious as to the negative effects of Bone Meal are.'
Pumkin
It is the lack of positive effect, those rose growers get pricked so often they need blood meal not bone meal. Many have demostrated that hosta need nothing but organic matter on the surface and it is backed up by University Research."

Esther Opal Post 3: "Three things you lose with chemical fertilizer are health, vigor and money."

Esther Opal Post 3: "Much [not all of it?] of the research has shown that plants with chemical fertilizer are not as healthy and disease resistant or drought resistant."

Esther Opal Post 4: "My main point in suggesting that additions are most often NOT needed [so sometimes they are?] and to add things without a LOT of careful analysis is harmful or useless."

Esther Opal Post: "I'm saying again that many of the things we do "for" our plants are not required and I AM saying that chemical fertilizers are often more harmful than helpful. Bone meal is not chemical fertilizer and I'm sure will cause no problems unless you have the REALLY unusual soil that is very high in phosphorus."

Let's play a game and see how many inconsistencies we can find just in those quotes above. Oh, and why do you have so many different user names on this site?

What is going on here? I'm fairly new here and I'm a little suprised that there is so much tension in this thread. I think that everyone is entitled to their own opinion but that we need to be respectful of each other too. It's really hard to tell if you guys are kidding or not but this thread just seems hostile. I appreciate the advice from everyone because you are sharing what works for you. Lets all take a deep breath....
Erin

"So, in the end, I do believe that I disagree with you, but I cannot be certain because you are constantly changing what you have to say."

You said that "those who agree with E-O etc" I'll continue to say that hosta are really easy to grow and beautiful and to over complicate hosta culture is a waste of time and money and you can keep chasing everything I say around if you like.

"I believe that a lot of people would appreciate if you were nicer in the way you approached others."

I'm going to use the rule of thirds, one third agree or like what you do and how and one third do not and one third don't care.