Thanks for the info Lucas, I will definitely read up on that more.

So now that I know you're using an NFT system, I have a question. I saw a video today and they were using an NFT system, she said she recycles the water constantly, never wasting it. Is that normal for an NFT system? Do you still have to keep track of the EC and everything when doing NFT?

I'll keep it briefly cherry, because we're getting OT for sure here.
What "she" said isn't actually correct, even with huge setups you sooner or later need to replace and deplete the whole content of the (often 1000+ liter) reservoirs. What she probably meant, is that for 2-3 or even 4 weeks plus, nutrients get "recycled" as in recirculated actually. This isn't linked to NFT-technology, though - as we know this applies more or less to all kind of setups that recycle the nutrients. The actual frequency of nutrient changes depends on reservoir size and strategy, and is neither (nor necessarily) inked to the kind of system.

Some commercial high-tech "farm" systems, where not only PH- but also NPK-content is individually controlled electronically and adjusted, are indeed able to quite extend this period - but now and again, complete change is inevitable.

Still looks about the same as it did a couple days ago but there is some brown on the tip of the right leaf. My pH read around 7.5 so I imagine that the alkalinity of the water was the problem...

I actually ran an experiment last night to see first of all, the pH of my faucet water, and, second, how much pH down I will need to put into 6 gallons for my plants to grow comfortably. I ended up putting in about 1 mL of pH down solution to get a 6.0 pH from a 200 mL sample of water!

That is just crazy... my calculations are showing that I will need to treat the 6 gallons of water straight outta the faucet with approximately 95 mL of pH down every nutrient change!!!! Tell me that's not bogus... hah. I think that will get very expensive honestly. Any ideas? Lol, after buying everything else im about broke as a joke so please don't suggest anything too expensive.

Ethnobotony, I wouldn't add that much PH down. What kind of nutrients are you using? Depending on the brand, you might be able to add more nutrient to lower the PH, if your still at half strength.

The leafs show clear chlorosis now, on top of the brown tip, as I can see.
Could still be a combination of both: too high PH AND "wet feet" that prevents oxygenation of roots and adequate uptake. I'd do two things as suggested earlier: increase nutrient concentration slightly and (in case the rock wool is dripping wet) cycle your setup at longer intervals, even let drain the rock wool for a while, still avoiding it to dry out of course. Btw: do the roots exit the rock wool already and are rooting in the pebbles? Here you'd have a good indication to better localize the problem. In case they are rooting in the pebbles already, the problem is most probably not rock wool or wet feet related, but more like from too high PH only.

Btw: after a little research I found that Leonotis Leonurus is supposed to be very drought tolerant, in fact classified, semi-arid. Just to sustain the wet feet possibility.

Best is anyway to get better (mineral free and lower PH) water to start your future seedlings. This is a very vital thing and often underestimated parameter. If your water's starting PH is around 7, a nutrient strength of 0.8 mS(cm will most certainly bring the PH already down to acceptable for seedlings.

Did anybody ask if your using water straight from the tap without letting it sit a few hours. If you want a cheap method of lowering ph using vinger. You can use that on rock wool too. I don't use it myself ( just something else to throw away) As lucas said I'd bring your ph down to 6. You can use baking soda to raise it.

Hmmm thanks for the inexpensive suggestion georgiii. I may experiment in the future. The vinegar wont harm the plants in some strange way or cause the nutes ( I am using dry nutrients) to not dissolve completely I hope?

@Lucas I feel like the problem is both high pH and the roots getting too wet. Especially since your research points towards the Leonurus finding arid conditions more suitable. The tender seedling may in fact have its roots protruding the rockwool but I would rather not have to deal with making a mess with the hydroton to check. Also that might hurt some of the micro hairs or whatever you wish to call them.

One thing I think that you should understand about my setup is that there is no timing system for the irrigation manifold. There is a constant flow of nutrient water to the rockwool and hydroton. To allow you to understand the concept of my deemed "bubbleponic" system heres an "inside look"

In most cases letting sit the water doesn't actually help if your water is full of calcium and magnesium that buffers high PH. SOME chlorine may evaporate if water sits overnight if added at some pump station for city water, but not much actually. This is another MYTH of how to "cure" bad city water.

For seedlings you don't actually need to get it down to 6, as 6.5 would be a great improvement and fair enough. If there is a high PH, any mild and (or cheap) method like using vinegar or citric acid will not stick to get it that much down. Anyway, you'll need to repeat, end up with burning the Ca-buffer out and finally have a messed-up acidic soup. If using lots of Phosphorus based PH-down, you'll also end up with Ca-precipitation and way to high P-content. The only thing that works with very high PH is using low nitrogen nutrients in combination with highly concentrated Nitric Acid. But that's the stuff that burns holes through a sherman tank's front plating or a 6 inch concrete floor - and if not handled right, blows up in you face and hallelujah - bonjour les dégats!

At least for seedlings and some time after transplant, simply get some clean and mineral free water or alternatively mix your tap water 50/50 with it. Full Stop.

Exactly what I "suspected" ethnobotany, - Too much of a good thing...
Don't get me wrong here! I understand your reasoning perfectly well, as my very first system was based on the same principal, except that it was top fed. Only later I understood that I overdid it somehow not only with the technology but with the actual irrigation. I strongly recommend to interrupt the permanent flow in order to giving the rock wool a chance to drain. I am confident now that the problem is even more "wet feet" related than of any other kind. Can't you get the tubes out of the rock wool and simply (somehow) let the jet of the tubes irrigate the expanded clay only? That would be what I'll do first and instantly - at least until you've figured out a more appropriate irrigation technique.

Right, don't go for the roots - you may indeed do more damage as you have already got.

Okay I have taken your advice and pulled the tubing away from the rockwool so that it is not in direct contact. Hopefully you have figured out the solution to my problem. I will update soon to show any improvements or progression of the erm.. ah, yes.. chlorosis : )

That's a lot of if's there lucas and here it's rare for calcuim or mag to be a problem other than as soap scum on the shower walls. In fact I encourge people to use hot water when making their mixes to add those micro nutrients. That part of your argument does't hold water. The rest is just opinion. Don't let these guys discourge you. Your going to fail. Everybody does. Thats how they can come on here and talk...they've failed. But they didn;t stop. Don't be afraid to fail. Once you get your first success it will really insprire you. So take it with a grain of salt or a shot of corn whisky. This is hydroponics, one of the hardest fields in plant, science everybody has problems with it.

Georgeiii, all you say here is again only rhetorical interference.

Where is "here" exactly? Or do you tell me you have the exact same water conditions from Yukon to the Everglades and from the Lakes to Southern CA? What else is causing PH problems (that so many people seem to experience) other than Ca and water hardness? You tell me please.

No-one is discouraging anyone here as far as I understand. But what about that failing thing of yours, georgeiii? I believe ethnobotany was right (in the other threat) when saying you were projecting a lot upon "us". Just a reminder: projection - the unconscious act of denial of a person's OWN attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world.- (us). I suggest to meditate about the meaning of the term f.a.i.l.u.r.e - and what it means to you. That could indeed bring some light in your "darkness"... ;-)

But will you actually listen to me, to anyone or are you willing to understand anything of it? I doubt it... I believe you don't even exactly read what is written here but already form your very own thoughts around the letters that are in front of your eyes, before you have understood what they mean.

I think using a little warmer of water may help me a bit with the dry nutes dissolving, that makes sense. I have to say I don't believe anyone here is telling me that I will fail other than Georgiii.

Anyways, I finally received my new light fixture yesterday. A 400 watt fixture which currently has a MH bulb putting off 38,000 lumens :D

Although the new fixture is exciting it is also putting off tons of heat. The heat its emitting and the high brightness gradient between it and my old fluorescent fixture is causing more trouble with my Leonurus i'm afraid. The new leaves appear to be fine but the old ones are now browning more than ever. Heres an update

Ethnobotony, I have a couple ideas that could help you out.

1. Fill your reservoir up to about 1/2"-1" from the bottom of the net cups, leaving a gap of air. Let the popping bubbles from your air pump, water your plants and soon the roots will grow into the water. This method will feed your plants a enough water, but not too much.

2. Make sure and keep the metal halide at least 18-24" away from your plants. Especially right now because they're small and a little bit stressed. You can eventually lower the light a couple inches at a time, until you get around 12".
-You gettin closer!

Do you let the tap water sit awhile before you use it in your system?

I you are changing various conditions now ethnobothany, and are fiddling around with even more parameters, (adding new and much warmer lights on top of it), you may 1. loose your plants for good and 2. still not knowing or understanding what the actual problem (or botanical schism) here was. It's your choice (which actually goes without saying), but I don't take any responsibility for what may happen in relation to what I have suggested so far. ;-)

Haha I know! So far so good though I have to say. The Leonurus is actually growing its third set of leaves now and the second set have literally no yellow spots on them. I think the problem was in fact the tubes being so close to the rockwool. As for my other plants, my marigolds actually started to bloom... strange.. was hoping they would wait till it got hot outside!

Sounds good - just take care that they get fed enough with the more intense light and "heat". About the early blooming: in some case it's just fine in some it's not always a good sign. In case of pepper plants for example, you may end up with dwarf plants, just having a few fruits. As soon as they build fruits (at small size) they often stagnate vegetative growth and that was pretty much it. Many plants have an internal clock and after a certain time, they go over to blooming no matter how developed they are. This "phenomena" is quite frequent with plants grown indoors under "artificial but not ideal conditions". Not sure about your marigolds, but could be that you'll have no giants there either.

Not cool. Would it be beneficial to cut the flower shoots to promote veg growth? Or would that not affect the path of growth, per say? BTW my marigolds are actually not in a hydroponic setup atm.

In pepper forums there was a lot of speculation and opinions on what to do in such case, - which mustn't necessarily concern marigold anyways. I believe any pruning or cutting off of fowers will not change much at that state. You have to look at the size of the plant also. All actually depends on all around growing conditions: if the plants are growing in rather mediocre conditions, those need to be improved firstly. They might as well make some shots and have more flowers eventually - yet it is obvious that the plant's energy will rather focus on flowering now if it isn't very developed yet.

This outcome isn't directly related to hydroponics but generally observed with indoor culture of any kind.

If we're talking about peppers yes cut off all the flowers. Their stealing energy from the plants growth. I actually do that for a number of plants if I don't have containers for them or it's too late in the seeason and I'm going to bring them inside. Or...Or you do it for Artistic reason.

[IMG]http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/ChristianWarlock/Fall%202009/Pepper9-5-09.jpg[/IMG]

I let that fruit stay on that plant from August of last year till it rotted off in January. It stayed that same size thru the winter. Soon as the light started to change it produced new growth.

For late season of peppers, especially for over-wintering it might in fact be a good idea to cut off flowers, but you actually cut back the whole plant then.

Here we're talking about the BEGINNING of the season, I believe. And, here we have a rather "poorly" developed plant instead. Hence I do not believe it will be of any advantage - or in other words, it will most probably not change anything. A plant has a certain potential at some moment in time, - if that potential is not amazing anyway you wouldn't improve it by cutting of one or a few flowers.

Btw: Ever heard of the myth, that cutting off the FIRST flower of a pepper plant would improve yield? And this famous test with A. cutting the first flower of a pepper plant and B. a control plant that grew almost exactly the same size and had the same yield? And wasn't it Dave DeWitt who indeed said: "breaking out the first flower of a pepper plant equals just one pod less!"...
Well, then let me say - if you'd only get one pod anyway, - that would mean zero then LOL...

But i grow plants all the time from begining to end of season that don't get bigger than seedlings. I have 16 seeds going right now from that pod. And still have the orginal plant in the picture. In fact I getting ready to make another Pod Squad up of Kale I planted at the begining of last season that stayed small all season and lasted thru the winter. There just happened to be five of them. And yes the pictures are under ChristianWarlock in Photobucket

When all you can think of is a hammer, everything else will eventually look like some kind of nail - right? LOL

Here is an update of my Leanurus: btw, now that I have my MH bulb in use the picture has lines running through it.... dk why but they do! Notice the old leaves practically dead but the new leaves look very healthy! I think part of the reason is that the roots have finally reached the nutrient solution. MAN, how fast it is growing!! Most of the problem here must have been due to high pH (measured at 7.5-8ish at start of problem) and then partially caused by too much water being fed to the seedlings roots located in the rockwool. Hopefully my thread helps others out who have similar problems with their seedlings...

I know this experience has taught me a lot on the importance of pH for your plants. Thank you everyone for helping!! Oh and mentioning the HID bulb "transition," the plants are starting to adjust and have lost some lower sets of leaves and new ones are growing with a very nice dark green, almost purplish color!! The only problem I have ran into with HID lighting is over spraying the foliar with water... it seems that spraying water on the leaves actually induces burning, much like a human getting burned worse at the beach if they are baking in the sun with water on them, rather than being dry.

Thanks for the update ethnobotany!
I don't know about others "involved", but I am not only glad about the improvement for your plants, but also to have a confirmation that all the hints and talk was indeed of good use and could actually help in solving the problem.

It also confirms what I believe is extremely important: taking care of giving you seedlings the best conditions is simply vital. Remember what they say? "You can already make out the winners at the start line"! ;-)

Heres a last update of my beauty. In embarrassment I will add that it is actually Leonotis Nepetifolia, not Leonotis Leonurus as the person whom I bought the seeds from had labeled them as. Anyhow, she seems to be doing great!!

Lookin good!!!

My plants are drooping! HELP! What could the cause be?? I don't believe its over-watering, right? Same with under-watering. So what is the problem? Too high of heat you think? My tent has a tower fan which blows fairly hard on the plants (it oscillates)so could that be the problem?

No over watering - they seem to have too hot indeed. Cancel the last change you have made or lower (cool) the temperature. Increase the distance of the light source.

Okay Lucas, I have raised the lamp to almost 30'' from the plants. Hopefully now my plants will be happy. I will keep posted... any ideas on a good way to keep the temp lowered?? My grow tent has the entire doorway open so you would think that it would be very close to the ambient room temperature in there but it just isn't. More like a heat box, even with both of those doors open!

Is there a possibility that the plants roots are lacking oxygen? I have 2 12'' air stones in my (bubbleponics or DWC) system but they are getting air from only 1 air pump.

Lack of oxygen in the nutrient solution will not make you plants that "floppy" in a short time. They simply look like having too hot. Are the watering cycles long and frequent enough? The plants will sweat and consume more water if growing bigger! What about nutrient temperatures, are they still constant (how many ° ?) What if you put a ventilation on top of the tent that sucks of the hot air, away from the lights and let stream in "cooler" air from below?

The temp in the tent is at 84 degrees F currently, and humidity is 55%. Not only is the Loenotis drooping more now but so is my goji plant. I put a couple teaspoons of H2O2 in the rez last night because the roots were looking a little sludgy. Could root rot cause my beauties to start drooping? Or could the H2O2 have made it worse? Maybe nutrient lockout?? This morning they are TERRIBLE looking ... in dire need of help

Hey ethnobotony, I have a lot of questions. The temp. isn't too hot at 84, is that the high, or average temp.? It looks to me like they aren't getting enough water(drooping), or it's too hot. Check the net pots to see if they're wet. Do you have a ventilation fan to exhaust the heat? What's your numbers: temp./humidity high and low, nutrient level, PH, ect. Can you send more pics of underneath in the res?

Here are some things to help with the heat:
1. If you haven't already, put the ballast outside of your grow tent.
2. Home Depot sells a inline exhaust fan for $30, that you can install in the ceiling duct of the tent, or the reflector, if it's air cooled?
3. You can get a dryer hose and duct tape it to the air conditioning register in the room, where the tent is.

80-84 is the average temp. The high HAS reached 90 a few times. Net pots were definitely wet. No ventilation fan, but I have a tower fan inside and my entire doorway is open.

Temperature: High-90 Low-80
Humidity: High-60 Low-40
I have no ppm or ec conductor so I do not know about nutrient level.
pH is at 6.0

From my understanding it can only be the heat or a lack of moisture, actually the combination of both. What about the nutrient temperature and levels (in the reservoir) which may be connected?! Haven't you checked it or have I missed (misunderstood) it? I told you that if you have changed something (including increased nutrient levels or anything of the sort) cancel it or bring it back to PREVIOUS asap. No nutrient lockout here, this would take time to show up and would look differently.

Do not add any (more) H2O2, as long as your roots do not "darken" or show any signs of rot, smelling ...

If nothing helps, dim or turn the damn lights off for a while, or take that tent away(I mean do something drastic here, otherwise they'll simply die). Desperate situations call for desperate means and actions, don't they?! Remember, what I said: if they grow bigger they need to take up more water for transpiration to stay "alive" under the heat. You have to ensure this, or drastically lower temperatures, the ambient or the ones of the nutrients, no matter how!

As your plants were recovering and looking perfectly healthy except they were what can be described with a transitive verb, nothing else, such as oxygen or nutrient levels pH, or whatever of these actually constantly STABLE parameters could be responsible for such acute symptom.

Heres pictures of everything. From the actual system, to my goji plant, to the leonotis, to leaves of the leonotis, to leaves on my ashwaghanda (which have weird white spots, whats going on there??)

REz temp is currently at 76 degrees F. I had to hack up the Leonotis. The stem started curling along with the leaves and apparently that snapped the lower part of its once sturdy base. So I have rooted it up, cleaned out the net pot and hydroton and am now going to try and clone the top portion of the plant. I have a question,

@ Lucas: If the problem was just heat and had nothing to do with nutrient lockout or root rot.. Then the cause o black root tips (even ones that were submerged in water) was merely heat?

Ethnobotony, the new pics bring a whole new light to the situation. I'm going with too much water again. What kind of contraption is that with the hoses? Is it home made? The roots need to breath fresh air in order to grow. This is my opinion, so take it or leave it, it's your system.

1. Take out the hoses from the net pots and do away with them.

2. Fill the reservoir up with water, to 1" from the bottom of the net pots. Don't let the net pots rest in water. You need an air gap, between the net pots and the surface of the water of at least 1". The popping bubbles, from the air pump, will be enough to keep the net pots moist. It will also give your plants roots sufficient air to breath. I know this sounds like it will dry your plants out, but trust me it won't. This is the correct way to grow using DWC. Eventually, the roots will grow down into the water and you can have a larger air gap. As long as roots are submerged in water, at that point, they will take up all the water and air they need, for explosive growth.

I am really considering to do what you say. My system is not home-made, it is called Bubbleponics and is manufactured by a company called Stealth Hydro. That is their irrigation system and apparently it has worked for many other people; this system seems to be popular which I found out after surfing the web and read up in MJ forums. Supposidley they claim it works best during the early stages of Veg growth and actually gives you a week of extra growth when compared to growth in aeroponics during that time frame. So my question is... why would they even have the setup as it is if it doesn't work?? It seems that its not just my Leonotis, but also my Goji and even my rosemary! So the plant conditions are all the same is what im getting at... which makes me think there might have been some kind of root rot going through my system. What are the symptoms of root rot?

I am not trying to say any of you are wrong, it just doesn't seem right that so many others have used this system with success and for some strange reason MY irrigation system is actually hurting the plants. If in fact nothing improves by tomorrow I will remove the hoses and pump for the time being.

One last thing:

Did anyone take a look at the Ashwaghanda (first and second picture)?? What are the white dots on the leaves there... looks like bugs but it may just be some kind of salt, nutes, etc.

"This is the correct way to grow using DWC. Eventually, the roots will grow down into the water and you can have a larger air gap. As long as roots are submerged in water, at that point, they will take up all the water and air they need, for explosive growth"

@ urban: So you are thinking that the extra water which flows down the roots from the hoses is hurting the plants? My roots were well into the water as you could see which made it seem to me like neither under or over watering was the problem. You know what I mean? The 2 air stones in there should have been providing plenty of air while at the same time the roots were fully submerged (to the bottom of the rez) before the plant started drooping, so the plant had plenty of water. Could nutrient lockout cause the plant to not be able to pick up the water it needed through its roots?

Whatever happened, it happened quick.. My plants were A-OK and then overnight *BAM* they were pretty much destroyed from excessive drooping (the stem eventually gave in from the drooping of the leaves I suppose?). 3 days later the Leonotis is done for and the goji is hanging in there but is still very droopy.

You didn't tell you did stick back the hoses in the pots, actually close to the rock wool cubes. As I said, if you did do any change, cancel it. It's not over watering in a proper sense, but lack of breathing, suffocation. What about the difference between the plants that have these longer roots growing out of the pots and those which roots are still mainly in the rock wool? Do the ones with more extended roots look any better?

As urbangardenfarmer stated, it was my thought too that it is not a "proper system" and the problem is related to it. The guys who call it Bubbleponics, do they recommend rock wool cubes and the tubes going to- or inside them?

But we (you) may been missing something else here, that doesn't seem relevant but may be one of the causes...

Again, nutrient lockout typically happens when there is a chemical reaction followed by precipitation of some elements. It's often caused by inadequate handling of nutrient, as mixing components in too little amount of water or in reverse order, whatever causes a chemical reaction. Nutrient lockout shows as deficiencies in a longer run, as actual metabolism and vital functions aren't threatened in most cases. In some extreme case it may show in shorter term, but you didn't change or screw up the way you use and mix nutrients all of sudden, did you?

Your plants don't show signs of long term deficiencies, but of acute and constant life threat. That is why my guess was heat and lack of humidity first. Now it's more like suffocation - if "we" are not missing something even more important here that I can't anticipate even if I wanted.

'The guys who call it Bubbleponics, do they recommend rock wool cubes and the tubes going to- or inside them?'

Yes they do recommend rockwool and they instruct you to soak the rockwool in a pH neutral liquid overnight. The tubes are directed to be placed directly underneath the rockwool cubes.

'but you didn't change or screw up the way you use and mix nutrients all of sudden, did you?'

Whenever I changed my rez I put in full strength nutes instead of half strength as I had used before. Honestly, I believe that was the source of my problem. The more I reflect the more I realize... for such a crippling thing to happen so quickly.. I think the culprit is over-fertilization. The leaves drooped for a day, then bounced back. Thought the plants were fine, just some kind of heat spell. Then soon after (2-3 days) the plants really started drooping and stayed that way.

The other thing is of course what you have been saying all along, its that they are getting too much nutrient water in constant motion at the rockwool. I am going to pull the plug on my fancy pump which is a main reason I bought the system... sometimes the truth hurts ya know? If you guys would like to check out the website where I purchased the system I am attaching the link. Watch the video, it looks appealing but its nothing but a scandal I suppose..

I really do appreciate the help here guys. I have been getting frustrated with all this failure and have been spending what my gf says 'way too much time' with the plants. BUT I HAVE TO FIX THE PROBLEM!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Stealth Hydro

In that case go back to half and (perhaps) a drop plus nutrient strength asap. Over fertilization and "heat", that's fatal.

Don't completely "trash" the system you went for, it might have been working fine with tomatoes or some other veggies that do not mind wet feet and are generally more forgiving! It perhaps is a matter of a unlucky combination that you couldn't anticipate or avoid in the first place.

If you change back to "normal" nutrient strength, you may save it all and you'll have the advantage to have learned a lot by trial and success. If I remember well I was also mentioning the fact that "half" or "full" nutrient strength is really too vague - well, it really isn't good enough in case it definitely is too much of a good thing. But don't give up, things can only improve after you went through a set of consecutive worst case scenarios.

Sorry for sometimes sounding a bit blunt and straight, - but that's a bit how I am. It keeps things going though, ain't it.... ;-)

One more thing!
To speed up things: simply purr lots of water in the reservoir to promptly dilute that nutrient strength! After that prepare and do a flush of the pots. But still be gentle, they barely alive...

: ) your straight-forwardness can be inspiring lucas. Thanks for the help.

As an update I have changed the rez out and put in half strength nutes (which is a vague meaning but its about all I can do with the pre packaged dry nutes with no instructions!). I added a fish tank bacteria killer tab plus a tiny bit of h2O2. The plants are starting to perk up VERY slowly. Gojis top leaves are curling upward but hey, thats better than dropping dead!

As for the Leonotis, shes a survivor!! I cloned the top of her using the right precautions, cutting the stem properly, using root gel and a fresh rockwool cube that was left in water for some hours. The portion I planted looked like an "S" shape yesterday....

Much to my amazement the "S" has straightened out bringing me hope! After all this I think I have learned a lot of valuable information. Despite all the failure I think this has been a good experience.. After all, "ponics aint easy"!

Feel free to quote that any time.

Ethnobotony, it's not a failure, unless you give up. Like lucas said, the "bubbleponics" probably will work for plants that like wet feet. MJ falls into that category and I'm pretty sure, that's who steath hydro is targeting. Just look at their name!lol BTW, "bubbleponics" is the same thing as DWC, if done right. The popping bubbles from the air stones are used to water the net pots. In my opinion, they serve that function better then they do, aerating the water itself.

Anyway, I think your on the right track now. I believe more then one factor caused this mishap though. The over watering started the domino effect. Then the heat and full strength nutrient just added to it. You live and you learn brother.

One more thing, don't give up on that octopus aerator aka bubbleponics.lol Try it on a new system with some veggies like lucas said or even some MJ :~)

Lol! thank you very much for the inspiration urban : )

Not that I would get my feet wet with MJ, and I am certainly no expert - but I believe MJ doesn't like wet feet either ;-)

There are many quotes about success and failure I believe, and even if I am no fan of quotes, here's one I like pretty much: "Success consists of getting up just one more time than you fall." by Oliver Goldsmith (1730-1774)