No, you want it coarse.

I make mine in a metal trash can. I just kind of layer it in the can, two cans of this, one can of that...then stir. Then another layer of everything and stir again (with a hoe handle).
bkay

Excellent.
Off I go for a day of picking up the 'gredients....

Good luck with the aphids and their poop....

@bkay

I'm sure you've explained it a hundred times... but whats your recipe?

I've read some recently, on some recipes to increase drainage and prevent stark water... involving gritty mixes... crushed lava rock...crushed pine bark...etc..

Would be curious to hear your thoughts...

John

John, here is what Bkay gave me yesterday in another thread:
3 parts pine bark fines
1 part spagnum peat
1-2 parts perlite
garden lime (if needed)
controlled release fertilizer
micro-nutrient powder (or some very well composted manure).

She can elaborate or elucidate ....

I got it from Steve, who got it off the soil forum (I think). It gives the whole theory of water movement in containers, so is very informative, if a bit dry. (I'm sorry I no longer have the link. I just copied it and saved it so I could find it easily next time.)

I couldn't find anything called pine bark fines. The guy at the nursery told me to go to Lowe's and buy landscaper's mix. So, I did and that's what I'm using.

bkay

The article Steve shared with me:

The following is very long & will be too boring for some to wade through. Two years ago, some of my posts got people curious & they started to e-mail me about soil problems. The "Water Movement" article is an answer I gave in an e-mail. I saved it and adapted it for my bonsai club newsletter & it was subsequently picked up & used by a number of other clubs. I now give talks on container soils and the physics of water movement in containers to area clubs.
I think, as container gardeners, our first priority is to insure aeration for the life of the soil. Since aeration and drainage are inversely linked to soil particle size, it makes good sense to try to find a soil component with particles larger than peat and that will retain its structure for extended periods. Pine bark fits the bill nicely.
The following hits pretty hard against the futility of using a drainage layer in an attempt to improve drainage. It just doesn't work. All it does is reduce the soil available for root colonization. A wick will remove the saturated layer of soil. It works in reverse of the self-watering pots widely being discussed on this forum now. I have no experience with these growing containers, but understand the principle well.
There are potential problems with wick watering that can be alleviated with certain steps. Watch for yellowing leaves with these pots. If they begin to occur, you need to flush the soil well. It is the first sign of chloride damage.
One of the reasons I posted this is because of the number of soil questions I'm getting in my mail. It will be a convenient source for me to link to. I will soon be in the middle of repotting season & my time here will be reduced, unfortunately, for me. I really enjoy all the friends I've made on these forums. ;o)
Since there are many questions about soils appropriate for containers, I'll post by basic mix in case any would like to try it. It will follow the Water Movement info.
Water Movement in Soils
Consider this if you will:
Soil need fill only a few needs in plant culture. Anchorage - A place for roots to extend, securing the plant and preventing it from toppling. Nutrient Sink - It must retain sufficient nutrients to sustain plant systems. Gas Exchange - It must be sufficiently porous to allow air to the root system. And finally, Water - It must retain water enough in liquid and/or vapor form to sustain plants between waterings. Most plants could be grown without soil as long as we can provide air, nutrients, and water, (witness hydroponics). Here, I will concentrate primarily on the movement of water in soil(s).
There are two forces that cause water movement through soil - one is gravity, the other capillary action. Gravity needs little explanation, but for this writing I would like to note: Gravitational flow potential (GFP) is greater for water at the top of the pot than it is for water at the bottom of the pot. I'll return to that later. Capillarity is a function of the natural forces of adhesion and cohesion. Adhesion is water's tendency to stick to solid objects like soil particles and the sides of the pot. Cohesion is the tendency for water to stick to itself. Cohesion is why we often find water in droplet form - because cohesion is at times stronger than adhesion, water�s bond to itself can be stronger than the bond to the object it might be in contact with; in this condition it forms a drop. Capillary action is in evidence when we dip a paper towel in water. The water will soak into the towel and rise several inches above the surface of the water. It will not drain back into the source. It will stop rising when the GFP equals the capillary attraction of the fibers in the paper.
There is, in every pot, what is called a "perched water table" (PWT). This is water that occupies a layer of soil that is always saturated & will not drain at the bottom of the pot. It can evaporate or be used by the plant, but physical forces will not allow it to drain. It is there because the capillary pull of the soil at some point will equal the GFP; therefore, the water does not drain, it is "perched". If we fill five cylinders of varying heights and diameters with the same soil mix and provide each cylinder with a drainage hole, the PWT will be exactly the same height in each container. This is the area of the pot where roots seldom penetrate & where root problems begin due to a lack of aeration. From this we can draw the conclusion that: Tall growing containers are a superior choice over squat containers when using the same soil mix. The reason: The level of the PWT will be the same in each container, with the taller container providing more usable, air holding soil above the PWT. Physiology dictates that plants must be able to take in air at the roots in order to complete transpiration and photosynthesis.
A given volume of large soil particles have less overall surface area in comparison to the same volume of small particles and therefore less overall adhesive attraction to water. So, in soils with large particles, GFP more readily overcomes capillary attraction. They drain better. We all know this, but the reason, often unclear, is that the PWT is lower in coarse soils than in fine soils. The key to good drainage is size and uniformity of soil particles. Large particles mixed with small particles will not improve drainage because the smaller particles fit between the large, increasing surface area which increases the capillary attraction and thus the water holding potential. Water and air cannot occupy the same space at the same time. Contrary to what some hold to be true, sand does not improve drainage. Pumice (aka lava rock), or one of the hi-fired clay products like Turface are good additives which help promote drainage and porosity because of their irregular shape.
Now to the main point: When we use a coarse drainage layer under our soil, it does not improve drainage. It does conserve on the volume of soil required to fill a pot and it makes the pot lighter. When we employ this exercise in an attempt to improve drainage, what we are actually doing is moving the level of the PWT higher in the pot. This reduces available soil for roots to colonize, reduces total usable pot space, and limits potential for beneficial gas exchange. Containers with uniform soil particle size from top of container to bottom will yield better drainage and have a lower PWT than containers with drainage layers. The coarser the drainage layer, the more detrimental to drainage it is because water is more (for lack of a better scientific word) reluctant to make the downward transition because the capillary pull of the soil above the drainage layer is stronger than the GFP. The reason for this is there is far more surface area in the soil for water to be attracted to than there is in the drainage layer.
I know this goes against what most have thought to be true, but the principle is scientifically sound, and experiments have shown it as so. Many nurserymen are now employing the pot-in-pot or the pot-in-trench method of growing to capitalize on the science.
If you discover you need to increase drainage, insert a wick into the pot & allow it to extend from the PWT to several inches below the bottom of the pot. This will successfully eliminate the PWT & give your plants much more soil to grow in as well as allow more, much needed air to the roots.
Uniform size particles of fir, hemlock or pine bark are excellent as the primary component of your soils. The lignin contained in bark keeps it rigid and the rigidity provides air-holding pockets in the root zone far longer than peat or compost mixes that rapidly break down to a soup-like consistency. Bark also contains suberin, a lipid sometimes referred to as nature�s preservative. Suberin is what slows the decomposition of bark-based soils. It contains highly varied hydrocarbon chains and the microorganisms that turn peat to soup have great difficulty cleaving these chains.
In simple terms: Plants that expire because of drainage problems either die of thirst because the roots have rotted and can no longer take up water, or they starve to death because they cannot obtain sufficient air at the root zone for the respiratory or photosynthetic processes.
To confirm the existence of the PWT and the effectiveness of using a wick to remove it, try this experiment: Fill a soft drink cup nearly full of garden soil. Add enough water to fill to the top, being sure all soil is saturated. Punch a drain hole in the bottom of the cup & allow to drain. When the drainage stops, insert a wick several inches up into the drain hole . Take note of how much additional water drains. This is water that occupied the PWT before being drained by the wick. A greatly simplified explanation of what occurs is: The wick "fools" the water into thinking the pot is deeper, so water begins to move downward seeking the "new" bottom of the pot, pulling the rest of the PWT along with it.
Having applied these principles in the culture of my containerized plants, both indoors and out, for many years, the methodology I have adopted has shown to be effective and of great benefit to them. I use many amendments when building my soils, but the basic building process starts with screened bark and perlite. Peat usually plays a very minor role in my container soils because it breaks down rapidly and when it does, it impedes drainage.
My Soil
I'll give two recipes. I usually make big batches.
3 parts pine bark fines
1 part sphagnum peat (not reed or sedge peat)
1-2 parts perlite
garden lime
controlled release fertilizer
micro-nutrient powder (substitute: small amount of good, composted manure
Big batch:
3 cu ft pine bark fines (1 big bag)
5 gallons peat
5 gallons perlite
1 cup lime (you can add more to small portion if needed)
2 cups CRF
1/2 cup micro-nutrient powder or 1 gal composted manure
Small batch:
3 gallons pine bark
1/2 gallon peat
1/2 gallon perlite
handful lime (careful)
1/4 cup CRF
1 tsp micro-nutrient powder or a dash of manure ;o)
I have seen advice that some highly organic soils are productive for up to 5 years. I disagree. Even if you were to substitute fir bark for pine bark in this recipe (and this recipe will far outlast any peat based soil) you should only expect a maximum of three years life before a repot is in order. Usually perennials, including trees (they're perennials too, you know ;o)) should be repotted more frequently to insure vigor closer to genetic potential. If a soil is desired that will retain structure for long periods, we need to look to inorganic amendments. Some examples are crushed granite, pea stone, coarse sand (no smaller than BB size in containers, please), Haydite, lava rock, Turface or Schultz soil conditioner.
I hope this starts a good exchange of ideas & opinions so we all can learn.
Al

I think you will find ongoing discussions of Al's mixes at the Container Gardening Forum on GW

Here is a link that might be useful: Container Gardening Forum

Here's an even better targeted link to Al's presentation

Here is a link that might be useful: Al's mixes and explanations

thanks guys... ive read a lot of that already... its intense
john

"Do you seive/screen the ingredients before mixing them together?"

Actually, yes you do...or can, but not to remove the coarse material. Its done to remove the fine particles which clog the flow of water (usually done though a widnow screen). There is less chance of a perched water table if the material is of uniform size throughout the media.

tj

TJ, I made a series of screens a year or two ago(1/2", 1/4", 1/8", windowscreen) just for that purpose -- to remove the silty stuff from various media. And, so what I was wondering was whether the hosta-in-pots folks were being that diligent in preparing their medium or whether they had not found it necessary. Doing what is necessary is good; more than that? not so much if you are me....:-))) or :-(((( (I'm not sure)

I dearly love science, but when it comes to mixing dirt, I have a laissez-faire attitude.

I take some of our native sand, add some 'barnyard dirt' from a nearby farmer, add some well rotted leaves from a pile we maintain by stealing from curbside in the nearby towns in the fall, a sprinkling of 10-10-10 or 12-12-12 or whatever was on sale at a big-box store 'cuz the bag was broke open, and then mebbe a dash of peat moss or top soil or potting mixture, again from broke-bag bargains, until everything looks and feels like what has worked for us over the years.

Often I end up with earth worms from the rotted leaf pile, good deal, huh?

Just go grab some dirt from a place where things are growing really well, then feel, smell, and 'handle' it. You'll git a 'feel' for what's good.

Reminds me of making hyper-tofa or biscuit dough. Ya just adjust the mix to git wot's right!

The Hillbilly Soil Mixer, posted in a 'Garden Tools' post earlier, helps a lot to alleviate arthritic sholder and/or elbow issues when doing the actual mixing ;-)

Concluding, I don't think many of us have the skill, scientific equipment, or time/patience to master home mixing of perfect soil, for potting or any other purpose.

I'm thinking that if you spend a little time to 'notice' what soil that's good is 'like' and spend a little time toying with what you have on hand or can get, you'll soon get a feel of how to end up; as the ol' NASA boys said, A-OK.

fwiw,
hh

I like that response HH lol.... our family farms beef cattle.. If you go dig where they have fed cows a few years back. Its a good 2 foot of black gold. They rotate their feeding spots to keep the ground from eroding. And when they rotate and the old spot(full of manure and hay scraps)sets and cures up... wow.. Better make sure to use seed germination inhibitor though lol.. Otherwise you'll be up to your knees in hogweeds =)
John

I've been very successful using small orchid bark. I totally flush the pot each time I water (about twice a week or less) and fert with 1/2 strength Miracle Grow about every 3 weeks or a month or whenever I think of it. Once the bark gets saturated after a month or so it retains a lot of moisture.

We have no rain during the growing season, so it is all hard water they get from my hose, hence the flushing to keep salts from building up. We get cold at night and not that hot during the summer, (plus the flushing part) so time-release pellets (both the temperture and moisture activated ones)don't work reliably for me here. I used to add a handful of organic compost and sometimes some rock powder, but I found that the finer particles of the compost would be flushing out the bottom too.

I HATE perlite. Once you have it in your garden those ugly little white dots are ALWAYS there. Even when I pot annuals I purchase a mix that has pumice but absolutely no perlite. In my early hosta days I used 50% perlite. Sure enough, after a couple flush waterings, it all came to the top of the pot and looked like snow and when it overflowed, it got caught in the cracks of the deck. Ugh!

In the end, you try a bunch of things and see what works for you under your own conditions.

-Babka

Interesting being advised to work it out for myself. And very liberating. Earlier today I went out on the back deck and knocked the soil out from a bunch of recently potted minis and added a few handfuls of sand to each to make the mixture less dense.....The "sand" is the kind that is smooth and about 1/8" in diameter, not like beach sand....really very similar to Perlite except heavy and beautifully colored. We will see how it all works. It just felt right.

I guess I won't worry so much and will just see what works. Thanks for kicking this around for me today.

Oh, John, you hit a note with us regarding 'barn yard dirt'.

For years we've used a local farmer's 'black gold', with no adverse affects.

Last year, however, we top-dressed all 2k plus of the plants here, and then a few weeks later found out that that years barn-yard dirt was weed-laden.

OH MY GOSH, what a weeding nightmare last year was!

Oh well, this year the Hosta et. al. are blasting big, so all was worth it.

BUT . . . don't wanna do it again,

hh

Yes, Babka is right. You have to work out what works for you. Hosta are very forgiving. They grow well sometimes and not so well other times. You'll find your own way.

They live, however, They hardly ever die. Sometimes, they look better than others, but they still live. They almost always look good in the spring.

Ken said something the other day when I was dealing with anthracnose - something like - You're pushing the climate boundries of hosta. Most of us havent' dealt with it so, you're going to have to write the solutions book.

He might be right.

bkay

What does "CRF" stand for in the article above?

And BKay, the higher numbers for garden zones are almost no-man's land where you navigate without a road map. I'm not the logical person that many of you are, and I appreciate very much being around folks who figure out what is going on.

I'm listening. I'm watching. Hopefully I'm learning.

CRF = Controlled Release Fertilizer i.e. Osmocote.

Steve