I tried fish heads under corn many years ago - used fish from the pond. Was not at all impressed - especially since the smell was strong enough to attract dogs, cats, raccoons, and God knows what else. I think one varmit noticed it and the rest followed suit. Even through the dirt the stink was a magnet (I couldn't smell it tho). We are in the country and have even seen coyotes within 20 yards of the house so it may not be an issue for others.

IMHO, old ways are not always the best ways. This was a good example of that for me.

Thanks for the feedback Taba, good to hear of your's and any other's experiences for comparison. Fortunately my fenced yard keeps most wildlife out. Neighborhood cats (and mine) don't seem interested so far. I buried the fish waste about 5" beneath the corn seed for that row and also the same 5" depth of the composted manure under the other 2 rows (used 2 different brands of manure).

Update.... day 12 after planting and the corn seedlings are 3" high on all 3 rows. With the recent heatwave it grew quickly and yesterday's additional 1" of rain helped also. All 3 rows look very healthy with about 90% germination (3 seeds/hole to be thinned out soon). Right now there are no visual differences in the 3 rows. The roots should soon be in contact with the fertilzers and I'll update again as/if changes occur. If nothing else, I'm geting hungry for fresh corn :oP vgkg

Update: All 3 rows are pretty much equal so far (2 rows manure, 1 row fish waste). Corn seedlings are about 6" tall in each row and the shade of green foliage color is also similar for each row of seedlings. I'd suspect that when the corn is about knee high that some variation in appearance should be apparent. Will thin out the seedlings later this week to 1 plant 10-12" apart. Updates to follow, vgkg

How far away from each other are the rows? If they are close, won't nutrients from the fish leach over to the others? If that happens, you won't really know if there is a difference.

Animals digging up my garden might be a problem, but as I mentioned to you before, I am willing to sacrifice a small corner to see if it does any good. Besides, what else am I going to do with that fish waste?

Kay.

Hi Kay, the corn rows are 3' apart. The fish waste was laid out in a straight narrow line down the middle of the row directly under the soaker hose. The corn plants are zig-zagged on both sides of the hose. Hopefully leaching will be minimal and I'm looking mainly towards the knee-high stage for the major effects, if any. By this time the corn tap roots should be well embedded into the fish and manure 5" below the surface and the laterial roots from adjacent rows should still be limited on knee height plants. I just thinned them out today, all plants still identically healthy. More to come, vgkg
PS, no critters have bothered with the fish so far, not even my cat.

Update: Well the corn in all 3 rows is now at knee high height. As far as differences go I can see a distinct color and bulkiness in the fish head row as compared to the two composted manure rows. The fishhead row is a shade darker green as compared to the two manure rows, and the fishhead plants are estimated to be about 10% more lush (thicker leaves) than the two manure rows.
Not saying that the manure rows look lacking, they also look very healthy and robust. No height difference in the 3 rows only color and slight lushiness in FH foliage is easy to see. Now it's time for their first side dressing and I'm not sure what to do, ha. I could get more fish waste but how do I side dress with that without distrubing the roots? The fish waste would need to be deep of course or else it'll be a real stinky mess and surely attract critters if too shallow. Or would the original buried fish waste take the corn all the way to maturity with large ears? May just opt for the 10-10-10 side dress for all 3 rows as I want this corn badly ;o). Never thought ahead and now I've backed myself into a corner, ha. I'll need to think this over, will need to side dress with something in the next few daze. Maybe I could side dress them all with 10-10-10 and leave it off just part of the fish row and see how that progresses on it's own? vgkg

Why are you sidedressing anyway?

Hi Sharon, I side dress because corn (member of the grass family) is a heavy feeder, esp for Nitrogen. Without the extra mid-season "boost" the ears would be smaller and the #ears/plant would be fewer. I try to be as organic as possible and am with practically every other vegetable in my garden (compost, cover crops, etc). Corn needs an extra "kick" but the slow release/low nitrogen of most organic methods isn't quite enough to get the best quality ears from my past experiences. Fish waste would seem to fit the bill here but I'm now wondering how long this previously buried waste source will last to feed the plant what it craves over the long haul up to harvest. I guess that's why I started this experiment and I should let it ride out to the end.

Still thinking about it. May get some more fish waste to treat 1/2 of the original fishrow (ha) leaving the other half untreated. Maybe do more composted manure on one of the original manured rows and just use 10-10-10 only on the 3rd row. Compare all 4 methods in the end.

To summarize the 3 rows side dressing:
One corn row = add all composted manure (continue with manure just as started).
One corn row = add 10-10-10 (was started using composted manure)
One corn row = 1/2 with new fish waste / the other half untreated (original fish waste)

Come harvest time I'll compare the production and ear quality of all 3 rows and all 4 methods.
Sounds complex but that's what happens with experiments at times, ha. Another trip to the fish market is near at hand. vgkg

Sounds a little "fishy" to me. ;) I've grown corn for years (not here, up north). Never used anything on it but some compost at planting and a grass clipping mulch after it got hot. Even with the racoons harvesting their share we could never eat all the harvest, and we had a very small plot.

Sharon, was wondering what corn variety that you grew up north? I freeze the majority of my corn (mainly se types) so there's no such thing as too much ;o). I would use compost as a side dressing but there's never enough to go around (esp for corn), never have done the grass clipping trick here, maybe that's an answer? I'm always looking for the optimum way to encourage max production from all my plants and experimenting helps. vgkg

What corn variety? This should not be a difficult question, but it is. We were always trying something new, and DH did the planting so I didn't pay much attention. One great favorite was a bicolor that was called something and something. I was just looking through a seed catalog to try to jog my memory, but I didn't see it.

I didn't think of grass clippings as a side dressing, but they break down fast and probably do serve that purpose. What about coffee grounds? We get about 30 pounds a day from one Starbucks. I'm very impressed with the response of the plants.

I'd bet on Peaches & Cream, Honey & Milk, or something similar (so many out there it's hard to choose ;o). My fav bicolor is Ambrosia but I'm trying a new one this year called "Serendipity", it's supposed to be 75% se + 25% Sh2 so that it doesn't require isolation from other corns. This won't be a problem for me this year since I'm cutting back to just 3 varieties and 3 separate planting windows. Hummm, coffee grounds, never thought of that one. Maybe an experiment in the making for next year? Hope you find that Fla is just as or even more productive for you as your northern gardens! vgkg

There are lots of ___&___. It just fits.

The Florida growing season is 3-4 times as long as that up north. Now if we just had some soil, and some rain.

i know it is not proper side dressing but what about fish tea so you could stay true to your experiment? the tea wont have the long term staying power but.... just a thought.

reg

Good thought reg, I hope to pick up some more fish waste today if the market has any. vgkg

I use a lot of regular fish emulsion (from a bottle) - the dogs and cats sure want to lick it up, yuck! no way!

Hi Gracie, I was a bit aprehensive at burying more fish, esp having to be careful not to distrub the corn roots. It was a more shallow burial this time around but my cat didn't bother it. I think one reason is that I took extra care not to spill any blood on the soil's surface when sloping around with it. A good rain that nite helped too. So far so good. vgkg

So Vgkg, hows the fishy corn?

Hi Taba, Corn looking Good! Right now it's at the peak of pollination stage. The ears are beginning to swell up and the tassels are almost exhausted of their pollen. I'd venture to predict that in 10-12 days it'll be near harvest time but this is my first try with "Sunglow" variety so I'll have to play it by ear (heehee....groan :+).

As far as appearences go, nothing much has changed. All 3 rows are quite healthy looking and the fish row (groan, again) is still a shade darker green than the manure and 10-10-10 fertilzer rows. Vgqn and I will do a side-by-side taste test all 4 methods once ripened:

Fish row (one application only)
Fish row (w/2 applications)
Composted Manure row (w/2 applications)
10-10-10 row (started w/manure, side dressed w/10-10-10).

Right now it appears that the second fish application has made no differnence in growth of the plants as compared to the one fish application (this row was split in half).
Hope this isn't too confusing as it sounds complex as I'm typing it up. Anyways, updates and conclusions aren't far off. Stay tuned!
vgkg

Seems to me that the value of buried fresh fish parts would be delayed by super bacterial decomposition processes early on. My experience with green manuring crops is that the nutrient values of the materials are not readily available until 6 weeks after incorporation into the soil.

Somewhere in my files is a study of organic fertilizer availability over time under cropping conditions. As I recall, nearly all materials reached maximum availability within 12 weeks of incorporation, mostly from bacterial activity, regardless of "availability" of the material. Teas and liquid/emulsion materials were not included.

I band organic fertilizers at 6-8 inches down between the rows and sidedress after hilling up. I use fish and kelp meals followed by banding blood meal and foliar feeding with bat quano tea at flowering stage.

Marshall, it would seem to be true, Organic "stuff" being broken down first by soil organisms beforehand. That's probably the better avenue. My usual practice with clover cover crops is to till them in at least a month before seeding, a longer 6 weeks if cold soil. Someone recently posted (not on this thread unfortunately) a site that showed a diagram of how the Native Americans did it. They would place a whole fishhead in the ground (face up) and put one corn seed in it's mouth, covered with soil. I thought that hard to believe and wish I could find that thread/site now.

Anyways, from my observations, the fish row corn was a darker green in foliage and a bit bulkier overall compared to the other rows, this was first evident just after ~4 weeks post sowing. Now, all the plants appear equally robust and equally green so it's now the taste/production factors which come into play. I'll try to keep meticulous notes on this as harvest time nears.
I wonder if (compared to vegetable matter like clover) raw animal matter breaks down faster? Might depend on how "active" the soil is with organisms? vgkg

Manures are already partially "digested" compared to raw organic material. Chopped greens decompose more quickly than whole greens because of greater surface area exposed to bacterial action.

Maybe plant material which is mostly cellulose takes longer to break down compared to flesh? Animal cells lack the tough cell wall that plant cells possess. Still only guessing on my part, vgkg

True, but then plants don't have bones, scales and other persisting parts! But I get your point. However, in my experience in testing the notion that meat scraps persist under composting and attract rodents, I have had meat persist for months in compost piles. Go figure.

Ya know, after looking closely at the corn today I'm beginning to think that the second addition of fish waste isn't having any effect (not positive or negative). This makes me think that the first treatment at planting time is well sufficient enough for a good crop, plus, that it is a slow process which releases nutrients over the long haul. If true, this is Great news! The second addition is rather tricky and not easy to do, and being able to avoid any side dressing at all is good.
Ears getting bigger, no sign of pests so far but will apply mineral oil soon. vgkg

Ha! I hate to be an I-told-you-so, (now you know that's not true) but I did question the need for side dressing. ;)

Good news.

Sharon

\*chuckle*/ Ok Sharon ;o)
But with the quick release fertz like 10-10-10 I'm still not sure yet. This corn (Sunglow) is a short season 62 day corn and a one time fish waste amendment may work for this variety ok. Next year I'll try to use fish on my other long season/large plants corn like Silver King, 82 days. It's odd seeing 5' corn out there with ears, Silver King gets up there at 7-8'. vgkg

Ok folks, the final observations are in:

Plant vigor/producton
All 3 rows (at ear picking time) were identical in overall health and ear production (~1.5 ears per plant). Ear sizes were comparable too, so not much difference noted between the fish heads, manure, or 10-10-10 applications in separate rows. Also, the 1 vs 2 fish waste applications seemed to make no difference with this early variety of corn (Early Sunglow).

Taste:
Again there were no surprises as each row of differently fertilized corn all tasted similar. Actually, Early Sunglow (an su type) does not taste all at remarkable to me & vgqn. A good corny taste but not that sweet to us. Tenderness is average too.

Next year I may repeat the experiment with a long season se type corn (se types are what we usually grow).
It's been fun doing this "experiment". Conclusions appear to be to side dress (early varieties) with whatever is more favorable to the soil itself, composted manure is easy enough (compared to fish waste) and better for the soil tilth over the 10-10-10. Sunglow is depenable but there are better tasting and more tender varieties available.
Until next year, vgkg

Good and honest (-sounding) conclusions.

what corn varieties would you recommend for the semi-desert of northwest l.a. county? even though it's now getting down to freezing at night, in the heat of the summer, it can be 100+ for days on end. you people seem to know your corn...

I just finished reading the whole tail (or tale)and enjoyed all your hard work, vicariously. I have not tried using fish on my corn crop, and as you know the PNW does not enjoy your hot nights, so we need to take advantage of any help we can get--can you give me a better idea of how much fish per seed you use? A fish head can very in size by quite a bit. Are we talking the equivalent of 1/2 cup trout head or a salmon head of 1 1/2 cup size??? Or are you convinced that side dressing with 10/10/10 is more efficient?--I spent New Years day reading gardening catalogues and watching the football game! Happy New Year

Fascinating!

Here's a very easy fish-waste experiment you might try before next year's planting. Pick a spot in the garden, and plant a quantity of fish-waste at the same depth as you would beneath the corn. Wait 4 weeks, dig it up, and see what you've got.

My hunch is that the majority of it will be gone, replaced by worm castings. I further imagine that you would find those castings at least 3 feet away from the cache in all directions.

I'd bet that your buried fish heads fed all three rows of corn.

I think that the fish may have a longer term effect and that
that row may be more productive than the rest next year.
Once the bones and tougher tissues start to decompose.

Swanz

My apologies to you last 4 folks, I haven't visited this old thread for a long time. Thanks for taking an interest! Although this "experiment" was 3 seasons ago I still haven't followed up on it, we moved 2 seasons ago and still in the "regular" gardening development stages. When I retire I will surely get back into this stuff and more.

Adamsid, I'm sorry not to have a good variety in mind for you, can only speak for z-7 growing conditions. Probably a short season variety is best, many to choose from.

Caroljm, as I recall it was about a 1.5 cups of fish guts/bones per plant. 10-10-10 is easier of course, espically when side dressing the plants when hip high. If not buried deep enough (and not distrubing corn roots) the fish may attract critters, esp digging critters.

Donn, no doubt the worms loved the fish guts! The rows were 30" apart so there may have been some spill over. You make me now wonder what the corn roots were doing - all heading towards the more tastie fertilizer? ;0)

Swanz, Fish bone is a great slow release P & Ca, + minors, slow enough for the lasting effect you mention.

Thank you for this thread. I have just planted a japanese maple and tossed a whole slamon carcass into the hole, covered it with a bit of soil and then proceeded with planting the maple in a gopher basket. The maple is a five gallon, so it is relatively well-established.

I don't know why I chose to try this fertilization method on an favorite, relatively expensive, somewhat fussy tree.

Does anyone think I should dig it up, take out the fish, and experiment in a different area of the garden? That will be so gross because it was pretty stinky...the fish sat in the refrigerator for five (yes, five) days until I was forced by the smell to go for it. (My poor husband.)

I'd say it fine, no need to dig it up (even though I'm late to reply, ha). vgkg

Veg King, do you have an opinion on Serendipity? I grew Honey Select & loved it. Honey Select is the yellow, Serendipity is the bi-color, and Avalon is the white, all three are the same type Triplesweet/synergistic (75/25.)

I have all three this year and don't know which to plant or all of them. While they supposedly don't require isolation because of their se heritage, they will cross pollinate color-wise. So I'm considering planting the Avalon upwind of Serendipity so it stays white. Didn't decide on isolation or timing between Serendipity & Honey Select though.

I'm starting my corn indoors today & tomorrow. If you have comments on Serendipity or any other Triplesweet/synergistic, please let me know. Thanks.

Mark

Hi Mark, sorry to be 14 years late but no I have not tried Serendipity, Ambrosia, se. bicolor is my top choice of corn.