The plant Nazis don't realize the original precept was to include natives not go to them exclusively. If we applied that same "natives" logic to our food think how restricted our diets would be. We live in the golden renaissance of gardening where more plants are available than ever before. Our forefathers would be overjoyed at these choices yet we attempt to limit ourselves. Every plant is native to somewhere on this planet. See an article on Native Plant Conference on the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cullowhee Native Plant Symposium

Eddie:

My Goodness, who knew what was available on the non-Rose, non-Container fora?

While I read your attachment, your response puts things in context just beautifully.

Thank you, very much. (Will you take me with you the next time you go to this symposium? My DH won't mind.)

Barbara

Barbara
I sympathize with your problem - it is not unique, but frustrating. I would suggest that you approach the Parks committee and get them to put into writing what the criteria for the garden area are. If they only wanted natives then they should have told you that. They will also need to define where native is - native to DC/mid-atlantic,USA in general - and WHY do they want to do just natives. The main reasons that I have come across include:
Low maintenance,
Hardy for the area,
They don't want exotic invasives,
Showcase for education on what you can do with natives,
They don't really understand what 'native' means and what 'non-native' is, but have heard that native is best,
Someone on the team has a bee in their bonnet about native plants and has convinced them that they are the only ones to work with.
If your rose can satisfy the criteria above for low maintenance etc, then you may stand a chance. If it is a powerful native-only advocate - forget it and comply or resign - you will not win.

Katy:

Thanks for your remarks; you make a great deal of sense. The value in not going ballistic from the first is that I've got the opportunity to marshall some facts and opinions from a wider group of people.

I know how quickly I can get valuable info from the other Garden Web fora. It's good to know that this holds true across the board.

Barbara

Barb in DC,
I have an, um, reputation at the Cullowhee Native Plant Conference. I go to symposia all day but when the sun starts to set I break out my bottle and my guitar and play and sing till I am the last man standing. That's the first night, The second night they have a real live band and I generally try to dance myself to death. You don't have to tell DH all that, just show up. Be sure to get your name on the mailing list through the link on previous post and when you get a brochure, respond immediately as some people don't make it once the quota is met. It is a very inexpensive symposium with friendly people and tho it's all about native plants, no one puts down exotic plants, with the exception of invasive plants that Katy Copsey mentioned.

Eddie,

Thanks for the info. I have NO problem with the breaking out of whatever favorite libations one cares to indulge in (I have my own preferences on that score). I also don't object to pickin' and singin' and dancin', although I am more likely to sit back and enjoy the show and let everyone else do all the work. I doubt, however, that I will be able to get there this year. I don't dare leave town until this situation is resolved.

Aside from gardening, I am also a foodie and hooked up with some local folk I met through eGullet.com. I was so stressed out over this project that I left DH at home while I bar-hopped with them and didn't get home until 2 in the morning. I haven't done anything like that in more years than I can remember.

It was wonderfully therapeutic.

Barbara

Well LOL (Laugh Out Loud for you newbies). My favorite is sweet wines (not dry) Shendley OFC and Crown Royal and sprite. But I will drink whatever is available except scotch or beer. Besides gardening I am into music and writing songs. I should have a CD out soon, look for it on my web site. I sometimes go to open mike night and a couple of times I didn't get home till 3 am. Haven't done that in a while but it may happen again when the weather gets better. I am drifting off the topic of native plants, sorry.

Well, Barb - I remember you'd said you posted here, so I just dropped in to see how you are doing. Looks like you're in good hands, receiving good info. & getting on nicely. Best wishes.

Al

Yeah, but anybody who dismisses Scotch has a problem. I used to think that there were bourbon people and scotch people until I went to a party at neighbor's place and asked for some scotch. My neighbor pulled me aside and told me that he some, but it was 30 years old. I said, "Never mind" and poured some MAKER'S MARK bourbon. My goodness!!! Wasn't THAT stuff delicious. 'Course, I had no idea that was real expensive and highly valued. So now, I'll drink anything--bourbon, scotch, whatever.

In fact, last night after going out to dinner with my Brother in Law and his girfriend (who were here in town for a convention), we went to bar for a nightcap. The selection was small, so I order a Dewar's scotch on the rocks and my DH had the Jamison's. I tasted his and it tasted the same as the Dewar's. Was somebody playing a joke on us, or are the differences really that minimal?

I love that we are discussing booze on the MG site. HAH!

Well I am back from the 2005 Cullowhee Native Plant Conference. I have been kicked out as a vendor but not an attendee. Thursday night a bunch of attendees got together and played music. We had 3 guitars, one upright bass, one fiddle and one harmonica. We played a lot of different styles of music. I drank one of those litre sized bottles of wine by myself. I got to bed at 2:30am. The programs the next day were an excellent opportunity to take a nap. Friday night they had hired a professional band and we danced till midnight. About scotch, I just don't like the taste of it but if there were absolutely nothing else left...... When you mentioned Makers Mark, isn't that a brand of scotch? There were lots of good programs and exciting plants but I didn't buy any plants (don't you wish you had my self control?) because I wanted to focus my garden on named cultivars of fruit trees. Remember, we do this with about 400 people every year, that's a lot of potential dance partners.

Returning to the original question:
"My first thoughts were that (1) who can define "native" in this day and age, and (2) how can anyone completely dismiss the idea of using some of the new hybrids, especially when one is looking for long bloom periods, cold hardiness, and low maintenance? Anyone have any advice for me? I'm trying to marshall information and evidence."

This is an area where we (including myself) Master Gardeners are failing miserably. Hopefully, we will soon begin to pick up the ball. With embarrassment, I am going to tell you about myself, lack of information directly under my nose and the misinformation I had unwittingly been allowing to be freely spewed.

This year I began actively grooming a latent interest I have had in native prairie plants since I was in high school over thirty years ago. For years, I thought I knew a little something about native prairie plants. Much to my chagrin, by actively going on prairie plant walks and attending a prairie convention, I came to realize just how misled we have become.

I have learned that many of the commonly touted "native plants" do not even grow around here. Barb's question, "... who can define "native" in this day and age ... ?" is quite poignant. Citing but one example: For years, I have been told to plant blue baptisia (Baptisia australis) because, "It is a native plant, you know." However, now that I have finally gotten down to doing some actual research, I find that I would probably have to drive almost a thousand miles to the east to see it actually growing in the wild. Does that qualify as native? Citing Tony Avent, Baptisia australis is "Native to river banks from Vermont south to the Shenandoah Valley..." That is a long way from Iowa!

White (not blue) Baptisia (Baptisia leucantha) is found growing on the virgin prairie remnants in this part of the Midwest. With my own eyes, I have seen it growing in virgin prairie. I have NEVER seen the blue baptisia growing anywhere other than someone's "native plant" garden or occasionally in some well-intentioned but misguided prairie reconstruction.

An accurate listing of plants will vary according to the respective region. Yet, as Master Gardeners our mission statements typically say some thing to the effect that "we are to provide current, research-based, home horticulture information and education to the citizens." Can we honestly say that we are complying with our principle goals of Master Gardening when we idly sit back and allow the misinformation to be repeated over and over? Perhaps we all need to take a look in the mirror.

IronBelly

Lovely people:

I had almost forgotten that I had posed the question in the first place, until I received Eddie's latest post on this question and then got IronBellys's response in my email.

Al (tapla) has been a wonderful source for me vis-a-vis container stuff and has been a great help, so I thought I would catch up those of you interested in the latest happenings.

Because I had already received a promise of donations of "Pink Knockout" roses from Conard-Pyle (last September!!!), I was loathed to forego them. So, I asked on the Rose Forum for any pictures of Knockouts used in public spaces. You will not be surprised that the response was immediate and extremely helpful.

I had a meeting with the Parks people on April 15 and was able to present pictures of memorial gardens using them and was the most "knowledgeable" person there. LOL!!! At at previous meeting of the "working group," one woman showed up and said that roses were too much trouble, etc., etc.

The upshot was that I got permission to plant them at the April meeting. (They had already arrived as bareroots and were soaking in big tubs on the patio.)

Plus, I sent a list of plants that were accepted, but only in mid-June because of a bureaucratic snafu on our end--I have more than one layer of crap to go through.

I planted the roses in late April and dontcha know, that foolish woman came by early this month while I was out doing some work and wanted to know what kind these were because she wanted some herself!!!!!!!!!! I smiled, through clenched teeth, and gave her the information. But, I was in the position of having to buy plants in late June and early July for this space. The heatwave prevented me from planting everything because, until the Parks Department puts in a water supply, everything has to be watered by hand; i.e., carried in buckets from my apartment building.

Thanks to the advice I have received on several GW forums, I actually managed to plant things which have survived nicely without watering, other than what falls from the sky. The stuff that needs help has been manageable ("Endless Summer" hydrangreas and dwarf crape myrtles are the exception).

I had hoped to dedicate this park in late September, but that isn't going to be possible, thanks to the delays in buying and planting. And, there is still the subject of the hardscape which isn't done yet. No matter, next Spring it will all look just great.

I have just been fascinated about how the Parks Department caved on the "native" plants issue. It doesn't even seem to be up for discussion. The only "native" plants I have to worry about are the weeds, and aren't those a pain in the neck? The new hybrids are so extremely useful that I find it hard to believe that anyone in this day and age will ignore them in favor of "native" species. And, oh by the way, I haven't found anybody to explain to me which are Native and which aren't around here.

Updates will be available as they become available. In the meantime, I love you all. And Eddie, Makers Mark is BOURBON, not scotch.

Barbara

Thanks for the update, Barb. I had to chuckle at your realization of how little it takes to sometimes be "the most "knowledgeable" person there".

Unfortunately, I find your statement; "And, oh by the way, I haven't found anybody to explain to me which are Native and which aren't around here." Sadly, you have far too much company. Since I feel strongly that the most important endeavor for Master Gardeners should be educating the public, it is embarrassingly obvious that this is an area of weakness. We are pretty good about being able to tell you about NEXT year's perennial plant of the year but typically have not a clue about what actually (not just what we heard somewhere) has been growing for centuries in our respective areas.

And about that ubiquitous "native plant", the Purple Coneflower (Echinacea purpurea); although there are thousands of them planted in local gardens, I have yet to see it growing in local, native prairie areas. What I DO find growing is the Pale Purple Coneflower (Echinacea pallida). Yet, how many times have I heard or read that E. purpurea is "one of our natives"? Also of interest is the fact that on the Wisconsin State Herbarium website they declare the following information about E. purpurea: "Introduced - escaped erect perennial forb" How many of you Wisconsin Master Gardeners knew that? Native plant? ...Hmmm

There remains much work for Master Gardeners to do on this topic that has been steadily gaining wide public interest.

IronBelly

IronBelly:

The idea that one should plant what grows naturally in your area is a good one; how many of us have bought plants from a local nursery which turned out to be unsuitable for our particular climate? On the other hand, some things found naturally in one locale may thrive in a different one. I don't know this through any research, but the extremely wet Spring in the West made me think about this. Flowers bloomed in the desert this year which hadn't received enough water in decades to bloom before now. A perfect example of the way species have evolved to survive in a harsh climate. However, would some of those plants do better elsewhere in a wetter climate? I'm just askin'.

My other beef with the Parks Department is that I told them from the beginning that this was going to be an ornamental garden. I wanted stuff blooming from early Spring until the first hard frost. And, I wanted plants that were as maintenance-free as I could find. That certainly describes the Knockouts, the hostas and the dwarf crape myrtles. The hydrangeas are a new variety which blooms on both old and new wood. They do, however, want more water than most of the other things.

All this in a city reknown for its cherry trees which, as you know, came from JAPAN.

Barbara

That is great news Barbara.
As to native or not, survivor or not, I just read an interesting article on the accepted definitions of natives etc. Many of the natives were brought over by immigrants from 300 yrs ago or more - so what constitutes native. More important is survival in the locale with little maintnance. These plants do not set viable seed rampantly nor do they run across parking lots. In short they are not likely to become invasive, exotic/alien or otherwise.

You know, as soon as I posted my previous message, I was out watering the patio and realized that moving something from where it is only seen (the California desert, for instance) and moving it elsewhere is exactly what causes SOME invasive plant problems. I don't need to remind anybody here about the original good intentions for kudzu.

On the other hand, to ignore the possibilities would hardly be acceptable, either. Much of the food we take for granted was "hybridized" by our ancient ancestors, who simply took the best (or mutated) examples and collected the seeds for the following year's crop.

Of course there are the introductions, such as potatoes and tomatoes from the "New" World to the "Old." It didn't take very long for potatoes to become the main crop in Ireland, a place otherwise unknown to natural potatoes. 'Course we learned the hard way the results of relying on a single crop for food.

I just wish there was some sort of "standard" for testing new plants for invasiveness. Just consider the zebra mussel and what that has done to the Midwest (eventhough it is an animal and not a plant, the problem is the same.) I recently read an article in the paper about a woman who has written extensively on gardening. She sort of off-handedly mentioned that her promotion of Loose Strife was a mistake because of its invasiveness. H-m-m-m-m.

Fortunately, my little triangle is sort of self-contained, and the only plants in it are things I have obtained commercially. Except the *&^% weeds, of course. I have no idea where they come from.

Katy,

I have never seen "native" defined in that way. I am not too comfortable with it either because I believe it is easily misconstrued. A much better way to define those plants is that they are Eurasian imports that have now become naturalized.

I am kind of a stickler for accuracy because it is simply too important. As Master Gardeners, I strongly feel that we should be setting the standard and helping to elevate the horticultural community at large. I vigorously resist the human tendency of acquiescing to the lowest common denominator.

I have nothing against plants that are not native. I grow and enjoy many of them myself. However, I don't want to be led to believe some perceived "expert" who is either misinformed or just plain sloppy with the facts -- and I don't care what the origin of the plant is if it is factual.

Just today, I saw some Carex buchananii, a striking New Zealand import, on the shelf at a local big box store. They were proudly displayed in the perennial section and the tags even said "hardy perennial". I live in USDA zone 5 (minus 20 degrees F). I have grown this sedge before as an annual and know that it is hardy only to zone 7 and perhaps into zone 6 -- certainly not zone 5. Boo ... Biz Bag! Accuracy is important.

IronBelly

Your right about Purple Coneflower, ironbelly, it is native farther east of you but has escaped into the midwest. You dont see many, if any, Echinacea pallida in the ornamental garden because some think its not as 'ornamental' as the other. Humph! I think its a wonderfull plant and will be incorperating it and black samson (E. Angustifolia) into my garden next year in replacement of purple coneflower. natives planted outside their area of occurance can become invasive too! Just look at trumpet vine and caltalpa!
But its also okay to have collections of various wildflowers native trought the contenent, as long as you dont proclaim they naturaly belong in the area you live!

"The new hybrids are so extremely useful that I find it hard to believe that anyone in this day and age will ignore them in favor of "native" species" Are you suggesting we should forgoe natives for something as unatural as a humman-made hybrid? Id rather have pale purple coneflower than any of the fancy hybrids. It sounds like you are suggesting that we should ignore natives infavor of hybrids? why? are native plants really so inferior to those that they should be ignored?

Fledgeling:

This thread was started because my local Parks Department initially rejected the Pink Knockout roses which had been donated for this volunteer project, and I need some advice on how to deal with them.

I wasn't suggesting ignoring native plants at all. Rather, I wondered how "native" could be determined in the first place and why any new hybrids should be rejected out of hand. I don't see this as an "all or nothing" issue.

There are as many types of gardens as there are gardeners to create them. In my case, I was asked to create a garden, in what is essentially a traffic triangle in the middle of an inner-city neighborhood, to commemorate a close friend who died very suddenly almost two years ago. She had been a well-respected community activist who many people wanted to remember in this way. She was also a gardener.

This triangle had been long neglected by the Parks Department, so this was an opportunity to turn an eyesore into an ornamental space undreds of people walk by on a daily basis.

Because this is volunteer-driven and will need to be maintained by volunteers for the forseeable future, finding plants that provide a long bloom period combined with easy maintenance is the challenge. For these reasons, I am extremely grateful for the new hybrids which have recently become available. The Pink Knockouts are a case in point: they have remained completely disease free so far, which is a real rarity in a rose. One can hardly spray toxic chemicals in a space like this to prevent black spot and powdery mildew; so, having a rose which is resistant is required. Unlike most roses, they are also drought-resistant which has been a real boon to me this year because there is not a water source, yet, in this space and this summer has been exceedingly hot and dry. The roses have required very little additional watering. Other plants have proved to be quite drought-resistant as well, and they are all hybrids. I found dwarf varities of several kinds of plants--also a requirement in this particular space.

Native plants are not "inferior" by any means, but finding ones which can perform like the hybrids requires a depth of knowledge I simply don't have, nor have I met anyone with that knowledge, either.

I did a search for natives in the DC area. Alot comes up..below is one of the places....

Here is a link that might be useful: natives

Terryr:

I thank you for this. I have done a quick look at some of the various links in your original link and have been quite blown away. I had no CLUE that the Bradford pear was considered a problem. One of my neighbors, many years ago, planted a Bradford pear tree in another traffic triangle across the street from our building. I'm sure she had no idea this was a problem. Likewise, I have two Spirea Japonica I bought several years ago and have in containers on the patio. My beef is that they are supposed to have red, white, and pink blossoms and I have NEVER seen a red one on either one of them. I was considering transplanting these to the triangle, but I think I won't.

The upside of this is that you have inadvertently proved my point. Many of these parks and other spaces have been taken care of by volunteers who live nearby. But, even the pros don't know everything--I noticed spirea in a little space in front of a public library branch in Tenleytown. This, clearly, was deliberately planted. I have been diligently (I thought) researching what I thought were appropriate plants, but even my best efforts can't avoid all these problems.

The cost of being extremely knowledgeable and avoiding the worst plants is prohibitive. There are simply too many green spaces in this city for the Parks Department to care for them all efficiently and no way to stop the "well-meaning" from doing the wrong thing. The history of my triangle is quite instructive (before I took it over, that is).

On the other hand, most of these spaces are like the one I am dealing with; i.e., self-contained. I wish I knew where all the weeds come from--dandelions, crab grass, etc. Fountain grass would be a much better alternative than the crab grass and mile a minute stuff that pops up in most of the neglected tree boxes.

I suppose what I am suggesting is this: one can spend a lifetime researching all this stuff and still be faced with a completely ignorant populace who will go ahead and do something completely inappropriate--without a "by your leave" from anybody. There doesn't seem to be a way to stop this. Besides, the "pros" often have a hired labor force which doesn't know very much, either. I will refer you back to the multiflora rose and kudzu. Neither of those was introduced by amateurs and they have cause more problems than anything the "ignorati" have come up with, IMHO.

It's kind of like pushing the ocean back with a broom.

Barb,
You are exactly correct. The pro's don't know it all. But I believe the real "pros" around now, will do their homework to find out what it is before they do any planting. I don't remember hearing why multiflora rose was ever introduced, but I know kudzu was intro'ed because it "supposedly" would stop soil errosion. In that case, I just think they didn't know the destruction it would cause. Ditto the japanese honeysuckle. Kudzu and the honeysuckle stop errosion quite well. They also cover buildings, cars, anything in its path. I'm in the process of doing my own little space all in natives or mostly natives. You have to have something for sentimental value, right? :)For me, natives mean not much care. They've been here for a very long time and survive without any babying from anyone. It's also my way of putting my little ecosystem back in balance to the best of my ability. As for weeds, the more plants you pack in, the less weeds there will be. I look forward to all the butterflies, birds and critters that want to show up. I think also, if you inform yourself about the use of natives, then it doesn't much matter about anyone elses opinion. My friends think I'm crazy. They want to give me all sorts of pretty perennials, and I'm not interested. I had to chuckle when I read of Ironbelly's dismay over the Echinacea purpurea and the Echinacea pallida. My chuckle is that I know the pallida is native and am on a search for some. I can find plenty of the others, but no pallida. And right outside my town is a parkway with all native meadow plants. I see pallida is in there, yet I can't find any! I'm also not a native "nazi", it's want "I" want to do. Regarding the Bradford Pear. I've never cared for them. Then I read all the troubles with them. We also lived in TN for 17 months, moving back last Dec. In the spring, in the mountains, were tons of Bradfords. My heart sank. In addition to all the kudzu, now they have to deal with the pears? Did you know that the butterfly bush isn't a host for any butterflies? Nope. Now plant butterfly weed, and watch the caterpillars turn to butterflies (I believe monarchs). Reading up on natives is really an eye opener. I hope you continue to read up on them and begin to see the benefit they carry. But knockout roses really are lovely! :)

Terryr:

Thanks for your comments. It's obvious that there are all kinds of gardens out there. I suppose inner city "green spaces" are a whole 'nother category.

FYI, there is a Consulting Rosarian on the Rose forum who has developed an e-book on Rose Rosette Disease (RRD). As an almost perfect example of the Road to Hell Being Paved with Good Intentions, R. multiflora was a wild rose of Asia which was introduced to North America in the 1800's. Both the USDA and several state Agriculture Departments merrily planted multiflora everywhere. It was thought to be ideal for soil erosion, as bird food and bird sanctuaries, and as a living fence. It was certainly cheaper and less dangerous than barbed wire.

However--cue the theme from "Jaws"--it is readily infected with RRD. For a while, some "experts" thought RRD would serve as a weed control, since multiflora was now considered a weed and actually promoted the idea of intentionally infecting multiflora with RRD. The problem is that RRD spreads to other ornamental roses along with other plants such as blueberries. Blueberries, as you know, is an important cash crop in quite a few places (besides being delicious and nutritious). It's getting quite out of control.

My biggest fear is that, despite all the research and time you and others spend on planting appropriate native plants, some fool is going to come along and in blissful ignorance undo all the good by planting something really damaging.

Hey, it happens. And you are right, those Pink Knockouts are just terrific and have been holding up very well in this hot, dry weather we've been having.

Barb,
Thanks for the info on multiflora roses. I learn something new everyday! My dad has 15 acres with 3 cleared for their house. He has a lot of multiflora roses and is forever trying to rid his land of them.

I'm not going to worry about some fool coming along. Because it's not an if one comes, it's when he comes. I can take care of my space to the best of my ability. That's really all I can do. On a side note...there was woman on another forum here on GW that wanted to know about getting a cutting or seeds from kudzu so she could plant it. I believe she was from California. Needless to say, she pretty much got blasted for her "ignorance". But, hopefully, she did listen to what others told her.

Another rose that's doing beautifully in this heat is a shrub rose by the name of Bonica. She's another pink one, and is by far my favorite! I'm glad your knockout is doing so well...alot of things aren't.

Terry

Hey Barb!
There's a lot of good info on natives available. Have you tried Sally Wasowskis's book "Gardening with Native Plants of the South"? The Virginia Native Plant Society has an excellent brochure titled "Native Plants for Conservation, Restoration and Landscaping".
Our MG definition of a native plant is any plant that was on this continent before Europeans arrived, easy to say but can at times be hard to determine. Lots of plants have been naturilized so long they seem native. Then there are the plants that collectors took back to Europe and played with genetically and they have been reintroduced here. Many of these reintroduced plants are now too aggressive, the Rudbeckia cultivar "Goldsturm" comes to mind. I guess technically you could call it a native but it's over aggressive and often doesn't bear the seeds that are one of the drawing points of the native plant.
Native plants are often crucial host plants for butterflies and moths. These insects need specific plants in order to complete their life cycle, some are very specific such as the Monarch. Without native host or nectar plants many insects can't survive. Too often nectar plants such as Butterfly bush (Buddelia) or Lantana are planted without consideration of the caterpillars. Be aware that putting in plants that" attracts butterflies" or is a "butterfly magnet" should be offset by ensuring that host plants are also located nearby. Unfortunately the host plants are often not as showy or pretty as the nectar plants and are not planted as much as they should be.Try to plant more host plants than nectar plants, those caterpillars are hungry!
Mixing native plants in with nonnatives and keeping a garden attractive to the average eye can usually be done with the 60-40 rule. Use 60% natives and 40% other, hopefully well mannered nonnatives. You may find that eventually the non's give up the ghost and the natives just get better looking.
When buying plants at the big box stores keep in mind that they contract their plants from all over. They're looking for the best deals not necessarily the best plants. Although if you're fortunate you'll find one that actually has a knowledgeable person running the plant department. Try submitting requests, one of our local big boxes is starting to respond to our MG's asking for better plants and pointing out the problems with some that they bring in. So don't give up on them, just be wary.
Good grief. I guess I got on a roll here!