Shad,

I have purchased seeds from Knapp's once in the past and did not have a problem with the specific varieties I purchased.

The only thing about Knapp's that you need to remember is that the tomato varieties you buy from them are not the same hybrid seed sold by the manufacturer. They are saving their own seed from hybrids, which can give varying results, particularly in the earliest saved generations.

So, for example, if you bought Fourth of July, it is not an F-1 hybrid generation guaranteed to be identical to that same variety if purchased directly from Burpee, but rather is some subsequent generation from seed that the folks at Knapp's have saved.

So, if including it in the swap, it probably would be a good idea to label it as being from Knapp's, and if your Knapp's seed arrived with the generation written on the packet, (F-2, F-3, etc.), then I'd write that on the packet as well. That way, folks receiving the seed will understand what they are receiving and can make the decision for themselves whether they want to grow the Knapp's dehybridized version of a well-known hybrid or if they would rather stick with the hybridized version.

There's nothing wrong with sending out seed of a dehybridized version as long as people understand that's the version they are getting.

I'm glad you were happy with Knapp's. The one year I purchased seed from them, the varieties performed OK (some were better performers than others), but overall, the plants I grew from their saved seed did not produce as well as the hybrid seed of the same varieties I later bought from a major seed company in a different year. Since I didn't grow the plants from the dehybridized seed and the hybrid seed side-by-side in the same year, there is no way to know if the different performance in different years was because of the weather or other conditions, or if the Knapp's saved varieties just weren't as good as the original hybrid. Because of that difference in performance, I haven't purchased seed from Knapp's again. Your mileage may vary.

Dawn

Carol puts this disclaimer on her website:

"ALL seeds are my own saved seeds and NOT F-1 if it's a hybrid variety

"I have had people ask me how I can save seed from hybrid seed varieties. So I put up an info page explaining it all here. I have quotes taken from a book by Carol Deppe that explains why many of us believe many hybrid seeds are not really hybrids at all. I will put an F number indicating the generation from purchased seeds. F-2 = first seeds saved after purchased seeds. F-3 = second generation seeds after purchased seeds. Often F-4 and beyond are reasonably stable OPs."

I made the statement on one of the threads about ordering seeds from Carol Knapp. I am so sorry if you were mislead in any way. Everyone knows I have the adventurous spirit, and that is the spirit with which I chose/selected certain smaller or dwarf tomatos from Knapp's. These are more suited to container growing and I found that Carol offered several varieties that I wanted to try at least.

I'm not sure that I adhere to that school of thought - that hybrid seeds are not really hybrids - but I am anxious to see what happens with my grow outs. Not really ready to twist my mind around that yet because there is more than one way of looking at it, and I am certainly no expert.

I should mention that there is another seller, Remy, at The Sample Seed Shop, who sells small packets for lower prices, too. Hers. I believe, are all OP/Heirloom varities, in case you're interested in those. I ordered several from her, too.

Susan

Here is a link that might be useful: The Sample Seed Shop

I went back to Knapp's website, and it appears on the two newer listings, there is only one F2 or maybe F3 tomato seed variety listed, so she may be getting away from selling those seeds. There's a lot on the older listing, but not now. Mine are all OP/Heirloom that I ordered, which is what I thought, because I carefully researched them. So, I don't want the OP, who may have ordered from Carol's newer 2010 listing or her 2011 listing is receiving F2 or more hybrid seeds, cause they're not in all likelihood, except if they ordered the one F2 - sorry I don't remember the name.

Susan

I could easily believe that some of the oldest hybrids such as Better Boy, are seed being sold as hybrid when they are actually seed from an OP Better Boy, because they would be so much easier and cheaper to produce.

I may save seed from a Better Boy this season and plant a couple in 2012 just to see what I get.

Keith

Susan,

I am aware of how she saves her own seed at Knapp's and sells them, but since someone who received seed in the swap might not be aware of that, I suggested Shad be sure to label the Fourth of July seed as being a dehybridized version of a hybrid so folks would know what they're getting. That's all I was saying.

I think providing that sort of labeling on a dehybrdized hybrid is only fair because not all dehybridized varieties are the same in plant quality or performance or fruit flavor as the original hybrid. "Dona" is a great example of that. Most people who grew the original hybrid "Dona" back when it still was available in the USA have been very disappointed with the dehybridized ones currently sold by some US retailers. So, if I was receiving the dehybridized Dona in a seed swap, I'd appreciate knowing that it was the dehybridized one and not the hybrid. Knowing whether it was the hybrid version or the dehybridized version might influence whether I planted a given variety.

It wouldn't surprise me that Knapp's is offering more OPs. They are the "hot thing" now and everyone is offering more of them. Even some companies like Burpee that often breed and develop their own hybrids are offering "new" hybrids they say are improved versions of very popular, very well-known OPs. That's their attempt to capitalize on the popularity of OPs.

Dawn

If I had acres and acres of space, I might be willing to give some of those a try, but probably not. It takes a lot of time and effort to get a tomato from seed to a producing vine so if you get to that point and it isn't what you wanted, you not only have wasted that time and effort, but the location that could have had something else growing in it. There are just too many good ones out there to mess with a "maybe".

I understand and point taken. Thanks for the further explanation, Dawn.

I guess even with OPs, you can't be sure that a little garden hanky panky hasn't entered into the picture, unless close attention to preventing cross-pollination has taken place. Hopefully, Shad will get a nice plant from his 4th of July that is productive, tasty, and disease/insect tolerant.

I hope I didn't offend anyone. Just being observant. There are so many things to take into consideration when acquiring seed.

Susan

Carol, I agree that I would not be likely to take a chance with an "iffy" type that might not prove true to type. It takes so much work to amend every square foot of clay soil for me to experiment too much.

Susan, You didn't offend me. I just wanted to explain why labeling of a dehybridized type is very important. I've grown a few dehybridized varieties that were so similar to the original hybrid in every way that I could not tell any difference in any way. That, however, is the exception to the rule and most dehybridized types I've tried were disappointing compared to the original hybrid.

With OPs you can ensure no hanky-panky takes place if you either bag your blossoms and only save seed from the fruit produced by bagged blossoms, or if you grow in an isolation cage. (Picture something like a bird cage surrounding a plant, but it is made entirely of fine mesh window screem or a Reemay type floating row cover stapled to a wood frame.) Isolation cages are used in huge quantities by some seed providers who produce their own open-pollinated seed, including Baker's Creek and Seed Savers Exchange. However, bagging and building isolation cages can be a lot of work for one person maintaining a home garden. That's one reason I don't save many seeds.....I grow a gazillion varieties of all kinds of veggies and flowers and barely have time to maintain what I have and deal with the harvest. I just don't have time to run around bagging and unbagging blossoms on plants or building isolation cages. It is hard enough during the garden season at times for me to find time to eat and sleep.

You also can grow OPs by planting a tall barrier crop between two or more different varieties and in some years barrier crops work well, but in other years the pollinators navigate around them pretty much negating their effectiveness. Growing only one type of corn or one type of cucumber or whatever can reduce the chance of cross-pollination depending on how close the next closest vegetable garden or farmer's field is to yours.

Dawn

If the seed packages I received do not state what generation (F-1, F-2, etc) can I assume that they are OP? The fourth of july seeds I received says F-3 but the tomatillos (which are the ones I thought I would include in the swap) do not say anything like that. What can I deduct from that?

It has always been my understanding that a seed distributer was required to identify hybrid seed, so if it says nothing, then I always assume it is OP. Hope I am right.

I am not sure if they are required to do so or if they do so voluntarily. I looked through my seed crate and I have packets of hybrids that are not specifically labeled as hybrid or F-1.

There's also a lot of confusion in the labeling of open-pollinated varieties. Some seed companies and some people refer to all open-pollinated types as heirlooms or use the terms interchangeably when all open-pollinated varieties are not heirlooms.

There is a suspicion on the part of many gardening afficianados that many seeds described as hybrids may not, in fact, be hybrids and may be open-pollinated. That suspicion extends to some varieties introduced as hybrids this year. Some companies, and I won't mention them here, sure are introducing a lot of heirloom-like so-called hybrids, leading me to wonder if they really are hybrids, or just renamed versions of open-pollinated varieties. Perhaps those companies are trying to cash in on the current popularity of heirlooms and OPs. That is ironic considering those same companies have always touted their hybrids as being supeior to heirlooms. I think there may be a lot of dishonesty/hype in the seed industry. It is sad that in our country, honesty takes a second place to making a profit.

I do think that if you are a certified-organic producer (like an organic farm or market grower), you do have to buy seed clearly labeled as 'organic' whether is it hybrid or OP.

I think the seed companies rode the high profit road of hybrid while the interest was there. I think that now that more and more people are interested in taste, the table has turned a bit. I am sure that it isn't extremely comfortable for them to see all of the seed trading going on either.

I planted a few hybrids last year, but didn't notice that they produced any heavier than the OPs, but I know they are supposed to. I am going to plant more this year than last, but I am only looking toward production on them. I will still plant plenty of heirlooms or other open pollinated types than anything else. My theory is that if a tomato has survived long enough to become an heirloom, it must have something going for it.