I order largely from Johnny'sSelect Seeds for veggie seeds and Wood Prairie Farm for potatoes. Johnny's has the option of organic on many of their seeds, but their plants (like onion family plants) aren't organic. Wood Prairie sells only organic, both veggie seed and seed potatoes (as well as some grocery staples and storage veggies.) They have some wonderful varieties of potatoes which put grocery store potatoes to shame. Both companies have great catalogues with lots of information as well as web pages. I don't know of anyone who isn't purely local who sells organic veggie plants, sorry.

In my experience, many heirloom veggies haven't really lit my fire. For instance, the heirloom tomatoes we have grown have often tended to need a longer season, are less disease resistant, and have not lived up to their flavor reputation, though there have been a couple of exceptions to this. I don't seem to be in the mainstream of opinion on heirloom veggies, so you will probably get differering views on them. I do realize that they have the advantage of keeping more variety in the gene bank and are open polinated, but on the whole I grow vegetables for my own consumption so their flavor and successful production is most important to me and so I grow heirlooms only if I like them better. I also tend to think they vary more with soil, weather and other growing conditions, so my recommending varieties probably wouldn't help you much.

As far as incorporating veggies into shrub borders and mixed beds, I have only done this with perennial crops. For instance I have rhubarb, thyme, lovage and horseradish all planted in mixed borders as well as cran- and blueberries. Because most veggie crops are annual and need insect patroling, harvesting, and other frequent intervention and tromping around, I've kept my veggie crops separate from the perennial crops. I have had separate beds of perennials and/or shrubs interspersed with beds of veggies, just not the two mixed. I've also seen images of veggie gardens surrounded by borders of purely decorative plants, especially hydrangeas and clematis, often grown on fences or trellises along the edge of the veggie garden.

I do think that a veggie garden by itself can be attractive, however. Decorative trellises and obelisks for the peas and tomatoes, varied foliage (mounding potato plants, long linear blue-green leeks, bright-colored kale varieties, those lovely clusters of grape tomatoes ripening in various shades of pale green, yellow, orange and red along with their larger cousins, colorful bean flowers (I love to grow scarlet runner beans) are attractive to me. One of my neighbors used to have a round veggie garden with sort of wedge-shaped beds and paths forming spokes and inner wheels. I always slowed down to look at that. Also, hardscaping, whether an adjacent patio, some nice chairs, a tall birdhouse or a surrounding picket fence can enhance the decorative value of a vegetable garden. I do leave volunteer annuals in my veggie beds, and annuals could easily be incorporated into a vegetable garden on purpose as well.

I tried companion planting for a while years ago, but didn't see much difference in productivity or fewer insects. Now I go out several mornings a week with my coffee while the temperature is still cool and remove pest insects by knocking them into a container of soapy water. It's a great way to start the day.

The main challenge for incorporating vegetables in a mixed bed is the big hole they leave after harvest, IMHO. I'd seriously consider a separate potager if I were you - it would be a formal element in your woodsy garden, and would therefore present its own design challenge, but sometimes being unabashed about something works better than the stealthy approach.

Leafy vegetables take a fair amount of shade, in fact you can extend the lettuce season quite a bit by planting late rows of it in part shade.

I know there are some much better vegetable gardeners on this forum, & I can't wait to hear what they suggest, since I'm thinking of reverting more of my garden to vegetables this year, too.

Babs & Nan,
If my response seems brief it is because this is the third time I have written it and it has been lost to the deep black GW hole.
Babs,
The Johnny's Select Seeds catalog seems down right yummy. I have grown potatoes successfully once before and want to try them again this year.
In my experience, many heirloom veggies haven't really lit my fire Interesting that you say that but it certainly makes sense.
As far as incorporating veggies into shrub borders and mixed beds, I think both of you are right that I would be asking for disappointment trying to incorporate annual veggies in a stable shrub border.
Interesting as well is your opinion about companion planting.
Nan,
I'd seriously consider a separate potager if I were you - it would be a formal element in your woodsy garden, and would therefore present its own design challenge, but sometimes being unabashed about something works better than the stealthy approach.
You make a very excellent point. Now if I were to re-arrange an existing shrub border and dig up some front lawn how much space do you think I would need to dedicate to a small potager for two?

KT - I'm giving you a link to the web album of one of my favorite garden designers, Michelle Derviss (AKA deviantdeziner) who is based in the San Francisco area. She has a front yard potager which is pictured in several shots in this album along with others, most or all of which she has designed. If you go to the index page of her albums, there are a couple of albums that have shots just of her own potager at various times of the year.

Michelle also has a blog, and there may be something on potagers there as well, but I can't remember off the top of my head.

http://deviantdeziner.blogspot.com/

Here is a link that might be useful: Potager gardens

babs,
You certainly managed to jolt me out of a gardening slump one look at Michelle Derviss's potager in central Marin and a new project/obsession was born. As dtd pointed out a formal potager in my woodsy garden can be a challenge but now my juices are flowing and I can't wait to get out and start digging. Thanks

Runktrun, this is a great thread and the previous postings have been so informative for me. I agree that a separate potager might be the answer to your questions about creating a decorative veggie paradise! I've done this with wooden raised beds laid out in an octagon shape with paths in between.
Regarding companion-planting: I interplant my caged heirloom tomato plants with marigolds (low in height), basil (medium) and orange 4 0/clocks (taller.) There's some question as to whether marigolds really "protect" from pests but I like the effect!

KT - I just got an email from Garden Crossings, where I have previously bought small trees and perennials. They are now carrying organic veggie plants. If you go to "Browse all plants" at the left of the webpage, then where you can choose plant type, choose vegetable. They are listed by Latin name, so tomatoes and eggplants are under S and broccoli and cabbage both under B.

Here is a link that might be useful: garden crossings

Hi KT.

Now THIS is an exciting project! I, too, am seriously wondering if I could fill my front lawn with raised beds. I wonder if my neighbors would scream? I wonder if my spouse would notice?

At present, I have 8 4x4 raised beds in the back yard. WIth the new addition next door, they might not get so much sun anymore. 2 of the beds are for my daughters' cutting beds. 2 I try to plant according to Mel Bartholomew's Square Foot Gardening, but I lose track of what's where and rarely plant more than 1x.... This spring, I hope to be more organized (famous last words) and use these beds for veggies I don't get enough of thru my CSA and, especially veggies that store or freeze! I am especially hoping to do better with peas and beans this year. I also love growing garlic there over the winter, and want to try onions next year. I would be really delighted if I could extend my season (following Eliot Coleman's recommendations) -- but again, sun seems too limited. Wouldn't it be marvelous to be picking fresh greens these days for salad? Or beets or carrots or...whatever!

The last 4 beds are for perennials: 2 for strawberries and 2 for asparagus. We cannot get enough of these as a family! In fact, I could devote all 8 beds to strawberries and it still wouldn't satisfy our demand....

Like Babs, I usually buy my seed from Johnny's. They seem like a reputable organization that tries hard to meet both commercial and residential gardeners' needs, and they are in ME, which is almost local...

Keep us posted!
ML

Emily
I wish an octagonal shaped garden would work in my space very cool. Do you have any photos that you would be willing to share? How did you lay out the garden did you have it on paper before you began working outside?
Babs
Thanks for the link to Garden Crossings it's wonderful that someone is selling organic plugs. It's a pretty interesting catalog they have separate pdf files for different selections so you can print out their veggies selections without having to print out pages and pages of unwanted selections of perennials, annuals, shrubs, ect.
Mayalena
I thought of you today when our neighbor nailed the final shingle on their two wing addition project that has seemed never ending. They still have the separate garage to build which will block a big chunk of western sky...sigh...if only I could win the lottery.
Eight beds now that is a good sized potager. I like the idea of smaller single variety beds. It certainly would be wonderful to be picking fresh greens in the dead of winter, my only concern is whether I have enough non-gray days to meet winter required days of sunlight. I suppose I will never know unless I try. I wonder if there are any plants listed by required sunlight hours?

Hi again, KT.
I often ask Johnny's my questions. They seem to be great at making recommendations and offering appropriate advice. Why not ask them about your sunlight sitch, just to see what they say?
ML

Runktrun, we have a similar problem on the RI coast (windy cold spring, fog etc.) So I keep my hot-midsummer veggies in a separate fenced bed and I intersperse cool leafy veggies in the perennial deck border: Egyptian onions, regular and garlic chives, garlic, herbs such as rosemary, sage, mint and tarragon. They don't leave holes when harvested. But for the 1 or 2 holes created when I take the whole plant out, roots and all, I then move the spent (flowered) potted perennials off the deck and over the holes.

I like to keep the tomatoes, peppers and eggplants separate so I can protect them from the deer and bunnies (and dogs)with steel rabbit fencing. There may be ways of planting tall border veggies or vines to hide that fencing, but then you'd be losing sunlight for the fenced plants.

Mayalena,
I just got the Johnny's catalog which frankly is a bit coincidental as I've never gotten it before! I think before I sit down to peruse it I'll call and see what they say.
Carol
Brilliant suggestion to keep the midsummer veggies in a separate bed. Do your peppers have long enough to mature to a reasonable size? Offhand do you recall a pepper variety that you have grown with success?

"Emily
I wish an octagonal shaped garden would work in my space very cool. Do you have any photos that you would be willing to share? How did you lay out the garden did you have it on paper before you began working outside? "
Runktrun, I ordered my raised beds from the link below--they have many shapes available, which can be organized into whatever space you have. I ordered "Garden Nine," as I recall--

Here is a link that might be useful: cedar raised garden beds

Our yard has limited sun too. Has anyone tried the tool called sun calc that looks like a meat thermometer?

noticklish,
I smiled when I saw that sun calculator. When I was a younger more methodical gardener (but sorely lacking experience) I simply made a sun calendar: walked around the garden at 10, 1 and 3 and noted (on paper no less) what the exposure was like. You know, terms like: dappled shade, light shade, shade from a building vs shade from different kinds of trees, full sun from .... to ..... Then I realized that for much of August as the sun was getting lower in the sky, that my mostly sunny garden was in considerable shade which might account for some plants' decline instead of needing a fertilizer boost.
OT from vegetable gardening, but it did make me a much more observant gardener and I was more aware of the subtleties of garden enviroments.

KT - The 'April' Fine Gardening now on the newsstands has an article on making a veggie garden ornamental . . it reminded me of this thread.

Thanks babs, I just started a subscription to Fine Gardening (and it comes in a manila envelope??), but I have not received the April issue yet. I will certainly make a point of actually taking the time to read the article. I can't recall if it was on your recommendation but I just received the Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds catalog and have literally been drooling over some of the veggies. Are there any other veggie seed catalogs folks might recommend?

"Finally I would appreciate any veggie advise you have to offer regarding companion planting."

Check the link below for Companion Planting info - It is very effective but not always in the way people think. The link is to a long list that also explains the how & why each works.

Like nhbabs I keep annual veg seperate. I have perennial asparagus, rhubarb, blueberry and others mixed into the borders though.

Here is a link that might be useful: Veg Gardening 101 Companion Planting Long List

>I just started a subscription to Fine Gardening (and it comes in a manila envelope??)

I just got that. Funny! Does anyone at your house dive for the manila envelopes that arrive in the mail? My DH's BMW club mag comes in a plain brown wrapper, and I could never decide if that was because there were actually some subscribers whose significant others don't know they had bikes, or so the centerfold wouldn't get mussed up. Maybe some of each.

I was in your position 3 years ago when we bought this house, with almost no yard. "food not lawns" is a big movement, as is edible landscaping, but the thing that took me from never having gardening experience to growing lots of food in an attractive manner on very little land, was the Square Foot Garden method. Also do a search on this site for "front yard potager" and you will see one woman's front yard suburban edible paradise, which should be an inspiration to all.
Looks like a modified SFG to me but how wonderful.

Anyway, this is my 3rd growing season, and I'm so glad I started with SFG. Although I would use coconut coir instead of peat in the soil mix, from environmental concerns if I were starting out today. With the SFG, it's easy to visualize and plan, a hand trowel is the only tool needed, and after the planting is done, it's almost no work. Very little weeding, and I get to go out in the afternoons and early evenings, just joying in it. Or with a basket over one arm, browse and pick what's for supper. It was the greatest, like my own fresh grocery aisle right there.

This year I am branching out on a relative's land, planting asparagus, strawberries, and lots of cabbages, brussels sprouts, rutabagas and sunchokes, and other things like rhubarb and horseradish, that take up space, because we are building a root cellar to hold "winter keepers" so we can extend the $$ we save on groceries throughout the year.

But that SFG wrapping around the outside perimeter of my tiny bit of green is a pleasure that my daughter enjoyed as a toddler, and will be helping me to plant this year, at 4. The neighborhood kids always come around, curious about it, and I show them how things grow and pick little samples for them. Their mothers would probably be amazed that they will eat raw snowpeas and sugar snap peas, pod and all, if it's part of a neat experience like that.

As for season extending, this year is the first I will be trying "hoop houses" using PEX (crossed polyethylene) pipes rather than the PVC which is so bad environmentally, to curve over my raised beds and throw plastic over in the early season, then mesh to keep pests off (taking it off for pollination of course) or adding a little shade for certain things in the hot season. So that's a new learning curve for me.

The SFG website has pics of my SFG in Maine (I am still the only Maine entry in the neighborhood gardens section) from that first year, so I welcome you to come check it out at:
http://www.squarefootgardening.com/

Here is a link that might be useful: Square foot garden website, official