Why don't you shop online? There are some great online nurseries (and some crummy ones, as well: caveat emptor), and most of them have good guarantees and fair prices. That way you could get the plants you want. My local nurseries sometimes get really wild and carry white impatiens (that's snide, I'm sorry), so if I want anything out of the ordinary in the smallest degree, I have to order, either by mail or online. I have never regretted it (knock on wood).

Joan

Have you tried discounters like Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Home Depot, etc??? This time of year, they sell fresh/healthy perennials in varied sizes for real cheap. You can get top varieties for $3/quart and $6/gallon. Of course, you need to shop now as the quality gets horrible once hot weather arrives.

I've been reworking a shady area -- last fall I dug out the ivy and tilled in good stuff, and now I'm planting hostas, tricyrtis, Gladwin iris and any number of other things. Much of my plant material I got online here at GardenWeb -- I swapped plain old vinca and foxglove seedlings for everything from fallopia to itea, and paid postage for callas, woodruff and hellebores. And JMLehrer is right; Wally World has lots of good plants. I found hostas Great Expectations and Wide Brim there in four-inch pots for less than $3, a range of (mostly unlabeled) perennials for about $4, and bags of trillium corms for $6. Do you have Price Club or COSTCO in your area? That's where my variegated iris pallida came from -- $7 for five plants, three of which I swapped for other things. I've spent a total of $50 on a 20 X 15 bed, and it's nearly full.

Lynn

For perennials you can't miss with Bluestone Perennials. Great plants and great prices.
www.bluestoneperennials.com

Think seriously about growing your own plants from seed. Check the "Growing From Seed" forum. All you need is a home-made light table, and some shop lights with cool & warm flourescents. You'll have fun all winter, and have too many plants to find homes for in the spring.

Also, look in your local weekly paper (as well as on-line at Gardenweb) for club plant sales. Large clumps of perennials can be had for $4 or $5 dollars, and swapping is free! (Just look around your property for plants that need division.)

I do go to the nurseries occasionally to see what the "new" plants are, and am astounded by the prices. Save the nursery buys for the items you can't grow from seed or swap for.

A couple thoughts,

Your local nurseries have to pay local taxes,

Local nurseries seldom sell plants that don't survive
in your growing Zone.

Local nurseries seldom have diseased plants.

If you are a regular customer at a local nursery they will find what you want, or make a recommendations.

Local nursuries usually have a Master Gardener or Horticulturiest(sp) on staff for plant questions.

I have to agree with a lot of what Slvr is saying. Part of the reason for the expense is the onerous cost of living and doing business is Massachusetts. I think the selection issue is a little more complex. I've asked around at nurseries on the North Shore for plants I've seen mentioned here and in magazines and I've been told that the reality is most people don't buy plants they are unfamiliar with. With the growth of gardening as a hobby I expect that to change. Still, I see what friends in the Chicago area can buy at their local nurseries and I'm really jealous! Slvr, you don't say exactly where you are, but over on the NE gardening forum people have been listing church, garden club, and other non-professional plant sales that are coming up -- I think these are great resources for less expensive plants (and helping charity at the same time). You might find something you like at one of these. I am donating my "surplus" seedlings & perennial divisions this year to my local animal shelter yard sale this saturday in Peabody. Drop by if you're in the area.

Massachusetts folks: Gee, one of my favorite mailorder nurseries is in your state, and their prices are very reasonable, their customer service good. I get beautiful and rare plants from Avant Gardens, in Dartmouth, Mass. And they have a retail business. Check out their web site.

Here is a link that might be useful: Avant Gardens

Money is the best manure. Outlets located in/near high income neighborhoods often have the most exciting selections. The general nursery liked the best by plant enthusiasts in my region is in the same community that Bill Gates lives in.

Another thought is...taking advantage of the exchange rate and buying plants mailorder from Canada. I tested this this year, buying perennials from Canning Perennials (Ontario). They have an excellent website. My plants arrived 4 days after they left Canning's, well packed and healthy. When a plant is $10 Canadian, it's $6 U.S., a 40% savings. AND some of their plants are rare enough to be offered by very few U.S. mailorder nurseries (Cryptotenia Japonica atropurpurea, for instance).

Here is a link that might be useful: Canning Perennials

Cryptotaenia japonica f. atropurpurea has become a garden center item in my area. The Pacific Northwest Plant Locator 2000-2001 (2000, Black-Eyed Susans Press) lists 12 sources for Oregon and Washington alone, including the mailorder companies Boxhill Farm, forestfarm, Heronswood, Highfield Garden, Joy Creek Nursery, Robyn's Nest, and Russell Graham, Purveyor of Plants.

Yes, this plant is not uncommon in my area, either. It also seeds about readily.

Slvr, what are you looking for? willy

Hi all,

Thanks for all the input on nurseries. This past weekend our temperatures in MA have been in the mid 30s at night. Then on Saturday we actually had SNOW. Since I was unsure how potted plants would survive, we ended up running in all the potted plants outside, into the garage and the house. over 50 pots, large and small. A nuisance. But, the plants that were in the ground seemed to survive it no worse for wear. So, since I have my hands full caring for what I have, I have stopped looking for more plants for the time being, but my responses to what has been posted:

Joan-Ordering online...this is a solution I may try. Especially for an unusual plant. NIce to know you have had good luck with it.

JMLehrer-I visited a local KMart yesterday and they actually had perennials for $2.50. They did have a few varieties that I would have been interested in, but they were not in good shape. I noticed plants outside the Stop and Shop that were in good shape at 4/$10. Not many varieties I wanted though. They did have mint and scabiosa that I could have bought. I am not close to any of the larger Home Depots, Lowes etc. so I haven't tried there yet.
Thanks for that idea.

Lynn-Wow with the $50. spent! Good job! OK, trading does sound like something I could do more of. I have traded seed before and enjoyed it. Plants I haven't, but I guess I could give it a try. Thanks.

MSgreenjeans-Sorry to say I tried Bluestoneperennials in the past and wasn't that thrilled with them. I actually do still have most of the plants I bought from them. But they were small and not in the best of health, they didn't just take off and thrive. I guess I didn't think they were that great. I did try them twice. They wouldn't be my first choice. But I would fall back on them I guess if I had no luck in other ways.

Cynthia-I have grown from seed lots of times and do pretty well with it. I just find it a lot of work that I don't have the energy for. I love to see the seeds come up, but keeping them growing indoors with lights is a lot to manage for me. I am thinking of trying to grow more from seed outdoors this year and see if that might be a little easier. With that thought, I tried to find some oriental poppy seed for varieties I would have bought as $8. plants at a nursery locally, and I couldn't find any. I did find a supplier, but they were out of stock. So, that might also be an issue. The common plants you can get from seed easily, but the more unusual and current are harder to find.

I did go to a local plant sale already this year and those plants were the best deals I have gotten this year.

Byron-I appreciate your support for local nurseries. I do understand that there are costs to do business. I do go to my local nurseries and give them first crack at my business. But my local nurseries have fallen down on the job. I could actually get into a rant about the number of different ways I am dissatisfied with them, but let me just focus on a few..

#1. I disagree with your point that you don't get diseased plants locally. The only disease problems I have had were from local nurseries. During the off season, when I am in the market for healthy houseplants, I can't even find a decent healthy houseplant. Some of these nurseries have huge greenhouses and tons of health problems, from mold on the soil, yellow leaves that could be forgot to water, or viruses or who knows, knats around everything, not enough ventilation in the greenhouses, plants packed in too closely. I haven't bought a houseplant locally in years.

#2. Yes, they may offer what is safe to grow in your area, but there isn't always a balance of also offering new and interesting and keeping up with what is available. One of our largest nurseries here are really bad about that. I was just there a week ago, and I couldn't even find a flat of annuals I wanted. Marigolds, impatients, blah blah blah.
Year after year it is the same, not just an isolated year.
In the winter, african violets...pathetic looking pink and purple and that is it.

#3. Cost of doing business...why is it I can go to one nursery that is selling quart sz for $8. and less than a mile away I find another nursery with quart sz perennials for $2.50? Neither nursery has a selection beyond the common, but at least if I want common, I do have this one source for healthy, good sized plants for $2.50.

And my final point...

#4. My pet peeve. [g] If someone could explain to me, why a nursery cannot offer smaller sizes of plants? Gardening is expensive for gardeners. Way too expensive. I appreciate the work, equipment and time a nursery puts into raising plants. I have raised plants. But why is it they will not offer plants at a smaller size while they have less invested in the plant? I am sure it is true that many gardeners are looking for a larger plant, but I am also sure that there are LOTS of gardeners who would rather be able to buy a larger number of different plants at smaller sizes to cut down the cost of gardening. The nursery would still earn the same amount of money from my purchases. I have a budget and I will spend to my budget, but with smaller plants, I would get more of what I want for my money.

Once, I went through my local nurseries perennial section. A large collection of plants. I looked at every one, and out of that many plants, I could only find less than 10 plants that were offered in small sizes for $4. [and you will notice they were still higher priced than the nursery down the street offering quart sizes for $2.50. But for better variety in these smaller sizes, I would be happy to pay the $4.]

My conclusions...the best nurseries are the best, not because they are local, but because some dedicated lover of plants is doing what he loves and doing it well. Some nurseries may start out that way, but we have a number of nurseries here that have gotten too large to do a good job. Within a half an hour of my house I haven't found any really great nurseries. I don't think they are that common. I think you have to look for them.

Oh, and one other thought. Maybe these nurseries are okay for most people. Expensive but okay. Lots of people are just keeping up their yard and are not necessarily gardening. I have been gardening a long time and maybe I just need something more.

Plum--Thanks for mentioning the local plant sales..yes, I try to get to as many of these as I can. I think I am done for the year for now. I am going to plant what I have and regroup. I want to try starting seeds for awhile. But next year, I am going to find as many local sales like that as I can. Hope your animal shelter sale went well. :-)

MysteryRose--I just learned of Avant Gardens this year and haven't tried them yet. They are an hour from me. I will take a look at their website. Thanks.

RonB.--That would be nice, but not everyone can afford it. Offering smaller sizes would make it more accessible to more people.

MysteryRose--Canadian nursery sounds good too. I will have to look into that.

RonB.--Sounds like you have great access to garden material.
Pacific Northwest has a lot of gardeners don't they

Willy--Right now, about the only thing that would tempt me to buy any more would be a lily called African Queen. I would have liked to try that this year.

Well...thank you all for GREAT ideas and suggestions! I feel I have a number of directions to go in to solve my problems. I just discovered GardenWeb recently and I am really enjoying hearing how other gardeners are doing!

Slvr

Slvr...
i live in Boston and go to mahoney's in Winchester. Have you been there? Or is that the expensive nursery you are speaking of?
I find their variety is great!
Also, about the smaller size plants...some times (most times) nurseries guarantee their plants. If they sell plants that are not yet truly established, they will die. If they sell them once they get larger and more established, they are more likely to survive. (just a supposition)
good luck !

Actually, it's easier to find seeds for many plants than to find the plants!! Seed Catalogues from Thompson & Morgan, Jelittos and Chilterns are where you go for the hard to find seeds. You won't find much beyond zinnias (overstatement to make the point) on local racks.

As a nursery owner maybe I can answer a few of your questions but not many. As far as size for perennials: probably 90% of my customers shop for perennials the same as annuals, they only buy when it is in bloom, they buy color, we tried for two years selling in 4" and then quarts, we would end up transplanting twice to larger containers before they were rootbound. As far as price: it all comes down to what the market will bear, in high cost of living areas or high tax areas there will always be enough affluent customers to keep the high scale nurseries in business, here in southern Missouri I sell gallon size perennials for $5.99, most of them overwintered and 2 years old, I only sell well established plants, in 3 years we have only replaced 2 plants. As far as new varieties: it is not as easy as one would think for local nurseries to obtain the new varieties, first the garden writers are like any other journalist, they are looking for a scoop, so they get their stories from the breeders at the large seed companies long before they are available, most of the new varieties are patented and can only be obtained from licensed propagators, it takes them awhile to get the growers set up to produce enough volume to go around, I order cuttings in October normally and when shipping comes around in February many times they are backordered or substituted. As far as getting too big: I must agree that many nurseries are just too big for their britches, they rely on their most junior personel, the waterers to notify them of impending problems such as pests and diseases, that wont work. But at the same time, by deciding to stay fairly small, I can only carry so many varieties and so many colors each year, I will never be able to make everybody happy.

Bill

I have to reiterate that I have gotten excellent stuff from Bluestone at great prices. My order has been well packaged and they have a nice selection of some basic perennials and also some woodies...I can't think of one plant that isn't thriving. Also, I have ordered seeds from T&M and Chilterns and had terrible germination...these two companies for me have had really poor success rate. And the T&M catalogue is awesome and it's so hard to resist.

Hi Bill in MO,

Thanks for sharing your insights and experience. It is always helpful to see the other side of things. Well, now I understand why nurseries don't sell smaller sizes very often. It makes sense. I have grown my own from seed and have had to hold seedlings too long and know how that works. Trying it for 2 years is a good trial.

I also understand why customers want to buy when they are in bloom. If you are buying something you are unfamiliar with you don't want any surprises. But I guess it also seems reasonable to me that there has to be a proportion of plants that most people are familiar with and don't have to buy in bloom, and as a matter of fact, want to get them into the ground before they bloom.

Maybe part of it is that many customers are casual growers and are not as involved in gardening as I might be. I guess I will have to plan on growing what I need from seed more and saving my nursery purchases for those items that I don't have luck with or are not easily available from seed.

Thanks for explaining what is involved in trying to get the latest thing. I didn't realize that. Maybe you misunderstand me though. I am not exactly looking for the newest thing that I read about. For instance, there was an ageratum that came out at least 5 years ago, that was a tall variety. maybe about 12-18" tall. It was very attractive. I look for it all the time and no one has it. There was also a very pretty purple ageratum that I bought once then never saw again. They just have the same old tired ageratum. I can't understand why someone couldn't make available something that is at least 5 years old.

Also, I am not expecting everything to be new, but at least a percentage of what is offered should be new every year. It doesn't have to be this years's hottest item. I appreciate your problems and don't envy you your business issues.

There are often more solutions than people think though. I suspect that there may be other problems that get in the way. Nursery owners having the same suppliers and not wanting to change because of familiarity. The work involved making someone too tired at night to spend enough time thinking about the essence of their business and planning because of the overwhelming practicalities of their business. I understand.

And for the most part, most people may be satisfied with that, but I am not. I need something more and evidently need to seek out a nursery that suits my needs more. Maybe a specialty nursery that has as it's aim meeting the needs of gardeners like me. For the most part, I guess many nurseries are trying to keep the middle majority happy and I don't fit there.

So, I have already made up my mind to put more effort into growing my own. I am good at it and I have the time to do it.

Thanks for your thoughts and good luck in your business.
You are very brave to post here and subject yourself to customer opinions..lol.

:-)
Slvr

Slvr,

My thoughts exactly, after I typed that long post and was about to submit, I went, "boy, am I gonna get bashed here", thanks for being gentle.

Being a gardener much like yourself is how I ended up in this business. I was a market vegetable grower for many years. I got involved in the Master Gardener program and my wife started touring some of the nicer gardens throughout the midwest and wanted a "real" flower garden, I said no problem, show me where you want it and I'll go warm up the tiller. Well, she staked out about 1/2 an acre and said "right there". After touring the local nurseries, I too would come home with only a couple of plants on a list of hundreds she wanted, plus the expense of $8-9 each. That is when we built our first little greenhouse from PVC and plastic and started learning how to grow perennials from seed. We now grow about 150 varieties of perennials with about 90% from seed.

So the moral of the story is, don't get too good at growing them from seed, or you may end up way over your head like us!

One thing that we do is keep a running customer request list up front all season and try to have it for them the next season. Also, we probably have a very unusual working relationship with several other greenhouses and nurseries in the area. We not only send customers to our competition, we call for them and see if they have something I don't carry or have run out of. Most of them really seem to appreciate that.

Bill

Bill - thanks for speaking up about the size issue! Smaller generally equates to less expensive for the buyer, but means more headaches for the grower. Smaller sizes narrows the window of opportunity to sell it before it gets overgrown or potbound, they require more frequent waterings, and they are more likely to be killed (with kindness of course) by the customer.

Hi,

Thanks for all the tips. Yes Allison, I have been to Mahoney's. They used to be very good a LONG time ago, but over the years, I think they have really let things go. They got too big and it often appears they are having a hard time keeping things on track. They are very expensive and I have not always had good luck there.

Msgreenjeans, Bluestone, is okay. I have only ordered two times from them and had to have part of my order resent as it was in bad shape.

Thanks for the names of the seed company Cynthia, I will look them up.

Bill, thanks for sharing your story of how you got into the business...love it! Well, there is little chance of that happening in this house. I am the only one interested at all in gardening. :-( I wish our local nurseries would be interested in customer requests. thanks again.

Slvr

The best place to get affordable plants here in NYC is a greenmarket that sets up twice a week. They have other things besides plants, but the plant selection and prices make it worth the trip.

Slvr,

If you are looking for more rare or unusual plant species than you may give Blanchette's in Carlisle a try. He carries very healthy plant material and has an incredible selection of the more uncommon. The extremely rare are costly but that speaks for itself. The prices for most of his plants are more than reasonable and if you are a member of the NEWFS than you receive a 10% discount on plant purchases. Speaking of that, have you visited the NEWFS (New England Wildflower Society)? They offer some hard to find selections as well.

Here is a link that might be useful: Blanchette's

No lie. I have gotten some VERY nice plants (on their own roots, too) from Miniforests by Sky, Evergreen Nurseries, and tube starts from Forestfarm. Bonsai folk need good, small plants to start with, so Bonsai starts are a great way to get, say, that Toyo Nishiki flowering quince you have been lusting for; or that purple-from-another-planet maple you dream of at night. Time is all you need. Also, you can make them do what you want! Need your name spelled out in weeping mulberry trunks? Hey, just retie the saplings to the letter-shaped stakes every couple of weeks. You can't do that kind of insanity with a big plant.

I've never tried www.gmtransplants.com but I read good reviews on them somewhere and they sell perennial cuttings (?) by the flat I believe. You might check them out.

>>I got involved in the Master Gardener program and my wife started touring some of the nicer gardens throughout the midwest and wanted a "real" flower garden, I said no problem, show me where you want it and I'll go warm up the tiller. Well, she staked out about 1/2 an acre and said "right there".Bill_Mo,
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!! I've got tears rolling down my face! That is TOO funny! Thanks for the laugh!

Tibby

Most of your NE plants come from a Wholesale grower in Sudbury, IIRC Griffin Bros.

If your in the mood for a couple hours on the road, A place in W.Wilton NH on rt 101 "House Beside of The Road"

T&M seeds has been added to a major complaint list..

If you really have all day, visit Comstock Ferre in Old Weathersfield Conn, They have been selling plants since the 1770's and seeds since the 1820's

Visit Arnold Aboretium, They have plant sales.
Watch local High Schools for plant sales.

FWIW

Why not check out local or regional botanic gardens and other public gardens for a source of plants? Many sell surplus plants or have a garden shop associated with them or at least have a special plant sale or two a year. That's good source for the hard to find or more unusual and they probably have it growing in the garden so you can see how it looks in a garden setting. If they don't have what you are looking for, maybe they can tell you where to find it.

I always use the Garden Entrance whenever I visit my local Home Depot, Walmart, or other local discount stores that have a garden section. The prices always beat the nurseries by far. Wal-Mart, especially always has the lowest price. Lowes or Franks Nurseries and Crafts are another great place to try if you have any around you.

I was so disappointed to find that my father had planted a 8 ft high pear tree in his NC yard that he had purchased at Walmart that looked exactly the same condition and health wise as the one I had just planted in my own MA yard but which I had paid $75 at Mahoney's. I've had good luck finding things at Home Depot and Lowes when I'm not looking for anything in particular. If you get what just came off the trucks they can't be beat. Right now Home Depot has some beautiful healthy, large sedum autumn joy for $7. Their rhododendrums however (what I wanted to buy) should be put out of their misery. If you are looking for something in particular, however, Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, etc. are completely hit and miss, more often miss than hit, and too much trouble for me to go to with three small children. I've decided to stay home and try mail order. I know the plants will be small but at least they will spend most of their lives acclimated to my home and not pot bound.

oops, i meant that I was disappointed that my same tree could be found elsewhere for MUCH cheaper (dad paid $8!), not that he had planted a tree.

Have you tried your state dept of natural resorces? They have list of nurseries that are in your area. Some state even give you trees if you don't sell them.

Slvr, forgive my confusion but you mention that you were disappointed with Bluestone and one reason was that the plants were small then you wonder why nurseries don't carry smaller plants?? I've ordered from Bluestone and Greem Mountain Transplants for years. It's worked for me because we are in the 3rd year of building our house. By the time we get the yard ready, all those little plants that are growing happily in my nursery beds will be ready to go into their permanant homes and make a big showing. LOL!

I have the same complaints about local nurseries. There is one very small nursery that carries some unusual perennials. It's only 25 miles away. The annual selection around here is like you said, the same old stuff. So I grow from seed and am trying Winter Sowing for the first time this year. Check out that Forum.

If you have problems with places, post consumer reviews. A good place to frequent for customer reviews of garden companies is the Garden Watchdog which contains a database of nearly 5,500 garden vendors around the world.

People like you and I can post feedback based on our experiences. According to their Jung Seed Co Ratings, Jung has room for improvement with customer satisfaction. I haven't ordered from Jung mostly because I personally find their selection to be a bit mainstream for my taste.

I'm accustomed to seeking out heirloom varieties from places like Baker Creek (which charges just $2.50 per order no matter how large within the US), Sandhill Preservation Center which has about 93 varieties of Sweet Potatoes, and the Seed Savers Exchange (which offers over 24,000 varieties of heirloom vegetables to all members) there's little left that other sources can provide unless it's Evergreen Seeds or Kitazawa Seed Company for Asian vegetables. I do like to have the Cook's Garden and the Kitchen Garden Seeds Catalogs on hand. And many here like to order from Fedco Seeds.

But even with all the sources, I've found that most of my varieties come from the GardenWeb Seed Exchange Forum. It's much more economical. If you're starting out, many offer seeds for the cost of postage. I used to send out close to 20 varieties of heirloom vegetables for well under $1.00 to newbies. And when you trade heirlooms, you can really discover some great finds.

If you want plants, use the GardenWeb Plant Exchange Forum. I would sometimes send 30-50 plants for under $15.00 to one person.

So you should absolutely utilize the exchanges.