Without looking, it must be Tapla's "Water Movement in Containers" thread.

That is the only thread I have ever seen that fundamentally changed the way I grow plants. Must reading for anyone growing plants in containers long-term.

CHC is a very suitable substitute for bark in all of these recipes. It has good CEC and it lasts longer than bark.

The one thing I intend to do, but haven't gotten to yet, is to try Turface MVP in the mix. I will substitute it for the perlite in my mix to start.

SB, I'm supposed to give Al a call tonight and discuss some of this with him. Any suggestions on questions that would be good to ask? I am going to try and place some wicks in some of the containers this weekend. I have a few that are always "heavy". I know you've experimented with this. What material do you use as your wicks?

Jay,

He is one of the most knowlegeable person I know on this forum especially when it comes to container growing. He is very helful and an all round "great guy". He will answer all of your questions, no matter how many times it's been asked or how many questions you have, always in a very nice way...

Jay,

Yes, I have some wicks in pots right now. I use old bath or kitchen towels torn into strips. Some wicks dangle under the tables, some just provide contact between the container media and the dirt in the ground beds. I have done some experiments with wicks in CHC (versus Promix) that were interesting.

Puglvr1 is right, Al is a really nice guy, very generous. If it is not too late, find out about Turface. What I know: fired clay product, holds it's weight in water, good CEC. Ratios in bark mix? Substitute for what, perlite or a portion of the bark? Any place not to use it?

SB

PS: we expect a full report.

I had a lengthy phone conversation with Al last night concerning soil and PH issues. A humbling experience to say the least. Troubling actually when I really think about it.

Let me start by saying Al is a terrific person. Obviously a patient man. And even more obvious...a very informed man. He definitely knows his soils and has the scientific data and the experience to back up his words. He offers his ideas and his explanations with no expectation that people will follow what he says. Not everyone will totally agree with him. But I believe everyone doing container gardening should be open to what he says. Even if you are skeptical, it wouldn't hurt to experiment a little.

I hung up the phone with lots to ponder. What he says makes a lot of sense. It also flies in the face of EVERYTHING I believed was correct about soils...container soils to be more exact.

1. Yard/garden soil concepts are not the same for container soils. Nite and day. Those types of soils or the things you do to amend those soils have no place for container soils. Forget the organics and the composts. They just lead to soil compaction and faster particle breakdowns. When you read soil requirements in web articles, they are talking yard/garden soil requirements.

2. Mixed particle sizes results in soil compaction. Fill up a gallon jug with those very large marbles. Fills up the jug and you have lots of space in between. Now add a bunch of smaller marbles. The work themselves into the spaces. Now add some BB's. Now add some sand. All of this occupies the same gallon jug but now what do you have? Where did all that air space go? 1/8" uniform particle sizes are ideal and will eliminate the perched water table completely.

3. MiracleGrow soil mixes start off supporting a 3-4" PWT in any depth container! You have a 6" deep container? You already have at least 50% PWT.

4. Worms are your friends...but only out in your yard and garden. They break down the soil to super fine particles and this leads to compaction. This concepts is sound for the yard/garden.

5. Peat. Will mostly collapse in one growing season or less. Will start to hold more and more water, less air. Eventually turning to mush. Roots cannot colonize in this. If it starts to break down "after" the roots are there and growing, that is fine. The timing of this is very difficult to achieve.

6. Perlite and peat. Good for short term plantings. Probably more suited to plants that grow fast and will need transplanted at year's end. I imagine that these plants grow faster than the peat can break down.

7. Pine bark. Swears by it. No real good substitutions here. The PH of pine bark starts around 6.0. Allows more air to the mix. Very slow to break down.

8. Turface. Again, no real substitutions here. Holds water well. Uniform size.

9. Reusing old soils. Perfectly okay to use the old container soils outside in your yard/garden plantings. Don't do it for container growing. Soil has collapsed, start to, or has turned to mush. Particle sizes not uniform.

10. PH. Here's the killer for me. Just forget about it! Yep. Monitoring PH in container growing is a waste of time/effort. It changes constantly and just about everything will affect it.. Keep with the basic mix that I've included below and things will do just fine. You can add vinegar to your water if necessary. Most fertilizers are acid forming.

11. Wicking to lower the PWT. Those flat, nylon ties you find on those large onion bags are the best. Rayon is good. Some shoestrings work. 1/8"-3/16" thick. To see if something will be a good wick: Dangle the end of it in a cup of water. If it pulls water up 3-4" inches in a minute or so, then it will be suitable. Make sure it makes contact with the soil in your container and the ground your container is sitting on. However!! If your soil has collapsed or broken down too far, this will not work. It's already too late.

12. A soil mix to keep the PH around 6.0. Equal parts Turface, Granigrit(crushed granit), pine bark. Add STEM or other micronutrient products to the mix. You can learn to adjust the pine bark/turface ratio based upon your water holding needs. Remember...more aeration means more watering. This mix should last approximately 5 years.

13. CHC. I was not aware that many manufacturers of this product process this in salt water. So it does retain the salts and must be rinsed several times to remove and render safe. He does not care much for this product. It does hold water, maybe too much. His trials showed that his plants performed better with the pine bark and didn't respond as well in the CHC.

So there you have it. I'm not going to rush out and repot every single plant I have. I am going to repot some and see how it goes and see what modifications are necessary. This is all a very new concept for me. It makes sense once you open up to the explanations. So sit back a while and ponder.

i am hoping to have 4 lychee trees in spring and i intend to grow 2 using Al's soil mix formula and two using North Tree Man's formula- I'll report which trees do better. did AL talk about any general rules for container size for fruit trees

my initial thoughts are that alot of the science behind plant growing ( see the incredible mumbo jumbo that goes on in the growing under lights forum) may only have minimal actual impact on the plants. look at north tree man's lychees- they r doing phemominally well without any fancy lights or any other fancy gear.

Speaking of lychees- I emailed Jenes tropicals to ask what was the largest size lychee trees she would ship- she emailed me yesterday and said she could ship 6ft trees in 14 inch diameter containers. Im waiting to hear what the cost will be and which other tropical trees she can ship in larger size. i am not expecting a response in a hurry- she takes about 3 weeks to respond to emails- but hopefully i'll hear by early april.

im in cancun and it has been raining the last 2 days. just 1 day of vacation left- feeling very sorry for myself.

Jay,

One question comes to mind as I read through this. I'm assuming this mix is for plants and not a seed starting mix. correct?

I would assume so. Seed starting is just temporary anyway and that soil would long be changed/replaced before it deteriorated.

Lycheeluva, I'm with you on the Growing Under Lights forum. Holy Cow, they make it complicated.

A few general observations...with the CHC, several rinses are required, even if the CHC come prerinsed. The folks who used to populate the citrus forum here at GW swear by the CHC. I have been thrilled with the figs I grow in CHC. I grew my citrus in CHC as well, but this last summer, I left the CHC root ball and potted them up in some of the pine bark mix. They grew better. I'm not sure if it was because they were outside or if it was the pine bark mix. My bottom line: CHC is great for figs and orchids, not so sure about other plants. My citrus will from now on go into screened pine bark mix (4:1:1 with peat and perlite) and not CHC. See below for some interesting charts on CHC.

The turkey grit is a great additive to the basic mix. Anything that likes a well-drained soil (cactus, succulents, plumerias) will do well with 1-2 parts turkey grit added to the 3-4 parts pine bark and 1 part perlite basic mix. I buy a 50# bag and the farm supply store, cheap. Also useful for adding weight to pots that will be outside.

Regarding seed starting, Jay is right. This discussion is mainly for long term plantings.

The smallest particle size is found with compost. Don't use it in containers, it clogs the micropores.

Five years is overly optimistic. Three years maybe. I look carefully at the mix in the bottom of the pot and often in a year it has broken down quite a bit.

Nice post, Jay.

Here is a link that might be useful: CHC charts.

can someone post a link to the type of pine bark product you are referring to. thanks

SB, what are you using to screen the pine bark? Do you feel it is absolutely necessary? I realize that uniform particle size is ideal but...

The turkey or chicken grit will probably be found without issue. However, I'm not finding any sources so far for Turface. Al contacted his contact with the bonsai society here in Columbus to see where they purchase theirs.

i found someone on ebay selling turface for $20 inc shipping for 2 gallons but as i would need somehting like 30-40 gallons of the stuff, the ebay source does not seem viable.

jay- what type of pine bark is being referred to as I have seen many types of pine bark (mulch, nuggets, chips)- do any of these works or is a specific type of pine bark supposed to be used.

I've been using the shredded pine bark...the finer stuff. If you have a local bonsai chapter in your city, contact them and see where they purchase Turface. They probably use gobs of it. We have to find it locally or it will be cost prohibitive for us. I've read where some people are using certain brands of kitty litter or the oil absorbant from NAPA auto parts...which is diatomaceous earth. I don't believe these perform as well as Turface though.

As for the CHC? Man...I never knew you should rinse this crap! Lovely.

Are you sure all this fuss is necessary? I have roses, citrus, and fruit trees growing in pots, some for around ten years, and get great results from straight LGM Potting soil. For plumeria and epiphiliums, more perilite is added. Sometimes I add a small scoop of super phosphate at the bottom of the pot when I pot the plants up, and/or mix in water polymers (this is a desert most of the year). LGM mulch is added to the top as needed. Healthy root growth fills the pot and supports the plant, as the organics break down over the years. There's enough perilite in the mix that doesn't seem to break down at all, provides good support and drainage. The only root pruning I do is to give the pots a turn now and then to break the roots growing out of the bottom. Worms seem to find their way inside, are usually there when I pot up, making aeration and fertilizer. I've tried other potting soils, orchid bark, Cocogrow cour (pre-washed), but mostly just use the LGM.

I too have some containers that are doing just fine with what I've been using. However, there are some that are always "heavy" and haven't been watered in weeks. So I definitely have issues. Is it worth all the fuss? I won't know until I try a few. I do know that I've been kind of lazy about mixing my soil. If the plant fills in the pot before the soil breaks down, that's great. Our problems are because the soil is breaking down before the roots can get into it...then they won't grow in it and it remains saturated. Maybe this is designed more for the very slow growers or if using larger than necessary containers? I don't know. I would like to try it, compare the costs and results and come to a standard mix that I can use. I need to go about this in a more structured and standard way no matter what materials I choose to use. I've got to stop winging it! Throw in a little of that...hmmm...that sounds good...a bit of bat wing and lizzard testicle and we're ready to go! Like something from The Munsters!

hey Jay,
thanks for posting the original link and your iterview insights. Very helpful thread.

I have some perpetually heavy pots too (including Hak Ip) and was planning to repot when the weather warms. Definitely need a different mix than the current one. The differentiation between "in ground" and "in container" soil mix was probably the biggest help to me. When you read online sources discussing soils as 'acidic, well draining, rich in organics' to me reads as 'peat/chc, coarse sand/turkey grit/perlite, compost'. Those might be great added to the ground, unfortunately based upon this thread and personal experience, it is not very effective with slower growing tropicals or overpotted plants.

While trying to replicate how I imagined the soils of S. China and Brazil to be, turface and pine bark did'nt even come to mind. I can appreciate now what they would offer to soil structure. I have some epiphyllums that were potted up without orchid bark added to the "soil" (I was out). The soil compacted within months and the plants were unhappy and showed signs of rot. After repotting in a losser mix and treating the rot with cinnamon they are healthy again.

-Ethan

On the CHC, yes, several rinses are needed. On the final rinse, a cation exchange is done, where epsom salts (magnesium) is added. The idea is to try to displace the unfavorable cations (positively charged ions) from the organic anionic binding sites and replace them with more benign caions. Some also add a calcium salt, but I wash with well water which is quite hard and I haven't found any problems with using the epsom salts alone. Sorry, Jay, maybe an omission on my part somewhere along the way. ;-)

Lycheeluva, I get my pine bark by the tandem truckload...literally. Nearby there is a wood company that sells a double cut pine bark mulch and I get a load in the spring. It is too fine to use in some of the beds, because it blows away with the high winds in the spring. But it is perfect for the potting mix. I do think the screening helps. I screen it with a regular screen and this eliminates this fine, powdery stuff that eventually turns to muck in the bottom of the pot. I think Al recommends a coarser screen. I agree that mine is too fine, but it works. I usually screen a couple of 5 gallon buckets of fines at a time.

No no no SB...no omission on your part. I just grabbed some one day and thought to use it after reading on the citrus forum. Oh well...it's mixed with a bunch of other stuff right now waiting to be used. I suppose I could try but don't know if its worth the effort. Are the bricks needed to be rinsed as well?

I just stumbled on this thread as I was doing some net research. Very interesting. ;o) You guys are soo kind in how you've referred to me. It's not likely I'll ever find this thread again, but I DID want to say thank you, if you're still around. Take good care guys! ;o)

Al

Al,

Thanks for stopping in.

SB

Hi Jay, SB and Lycheeluva,

This post is very interesting. I have been using Al's gritty mix on various plants with great results. But just one plant I have problems repotting with, the dreaded gardenia. But you guys don't grow gardenia anyway. I have a citrus been sick for long, I repotted it into gritty mix, now the whole pot is filled with white roots. Very impressive. I also have a lychee tree in container big as a twig, it's potted with pine bark and peat. It has some growth flushes but constantly loosing old leaves.

What's you guys discoveries on the gritty mix?

Not using gritty at the moment, using 511. Still have not found all of the ingredients. Have a bunch of subtropicals containered in 511 and they are doing outstanding.

Also have a pomegranate which has been in containered about three months and is flowering nicely, looks cool. Vietnamese red pomegranate, very pretty. Mango's doing great as well.

Only one tree, a strawberry tree is not doing great. Worried that it needs even faster mix. When it starts to cool off, I am going back on a hunt for gritty mix components. The trees now are just in smaller pots as they await replanting into larger and more long term homes - where the gritty mix comes in.

Wish I knew where the post was, but someone else was using 511 and had more long term plantings that were doing well. Who knows. If it is good for about a year, gives me a few months to replant. Puts me in the height of fall and out of this devil summer. :)

Thanks linchat,

It's my discovery that many plants are doing outstanding in the 511 mix. And many are transplanting better in the 511 than the gritty mix especially for the nursery grown plants. I don't know exactly the reason. But for bare rooted plants or plants with aggressive genetic vigor, the gritty mix beats the 511 so much.

But one huge advantage of using gritty mix is that the mix is so stable in container and it can perform well for up to 5 years, but the 511 can only perform for about two years. So it's worth it the pain to find the right ingredients for the gritty mix.

I guess it depends on what your doing and planting. For me the 511 is good as my current plantings will be getting bigger pots over the next couple of years. So they will probably be getting transplanted every year or so.

I cannot find the ingredients for gritty mix (I am in S. FL anyone if you can tell me where to get them), so sticking with 511 which is doing very well for me is a good deal and easier at the moment.

When ready to settle some of these in bigger pots for a few years, hope I will have found ingredient the gritty mix by then.

Still looking for small lava rock and gran-i-grit in SW Florida. Help!!!

Would this soil mix be good for dragon fruits?

Thanks,

Goodness Newgen, I had no idea you aksed this.

Of course it would if you haven't figured by now.;-)))

Another testimony to how much this Al's generousity has helped many, icluding myself.

Thank you Al for this kindness!

Mike

Hi Jay,
I couldn't find any turface locally. Local bonsai chapter?? Don't know about that one but worth looking into definetly! Thanks for the suggestion.

I think I had told you how I had trouble with citrus and root rot. I also noticed it with my 2 mango trees last year. After paying TOP prices and then losing them I was pretty bitter!!! With my 600 watt HPS soil dries out very fast. I have all my tropical fruit trees in a small room without too much air circulation. The room almost feels like I am walking into an oven.

My citrus trees are doing 100% better than ever. I used this mix only on a few things and that was it. I used it on plumeria when they were rooting to prevent root rot, and it worked really well.

The only draw back that I found with the gritty mix, is that you cannot leave your trees/tropicals for more than a few days. Very often during the summer, I will take off for the weekends and go camping. A few of those times were for 4 days and upon my arrival back home, my citrus were almost weaping. Watered them right away, and they were back to being rehydrated.

The mix works well it's just that during the summer, I found that I had to stay on top of there watering needs.

Hey Mike,
Nice to see ya back over on this forum! I was thinking about you the other day when I was transplanting my gardenia tree. I removed it from the large pot it was in andput it into a smaller container so I could use the larger one for my 'Lancetilla' mango. That was one hell of a job! Spent the rest of the evening on my couch!

Now that tree is recovering nicely. New growths, no more damn spider mites!!! I am thinking of treating it with a systemic. I am going to be checking for that tomorrow when I go back to Potratz in Erie. They seem to have a little of everything so here's hoping.

How are all your citrus trees doing now? I am going to give my other Oro one last try. I am also considering changing my mind on that free tree from Four Winds. I think I am going to skip on the Minneola and just go for the Washington Navel. I also am experimenting with Ylang Ylang seeds. I have them under my HPS thinking that all the extra heat will help them to germinate better.

Jay, sorry for getting off topic there for a sec but I am glad to see that your going to give this a try. Laughed my ass off at those last two soil ingriedients but sounds familiar. I often mix a little of this and a little of that!

Andrew

This is a great thread. I am considering getting some of those "smart pots" for my sweetheart lychee and a couple of my larger mango trees and I am wondering how this mix would work in conjunction with the smart pot. Would I have to be out there with the hose 3 times a day. Perhaps a heavier soil would be called for since these pots are so porous?

Gritty Mixes hold a surprising amount of moisture.
Even on the warmest of days you wouldn't have to water 3 times....

Josh

the turface does retain sufficient water for a dry day. the important part is though is that the water table doesnt become perched; its impossible to flood the container

Its also my opinion that using heavier soil is not the answer. Its so much better and healthier for the plants/trees to have a porous free draining soil.

I agree with Josh and MK that the turface holds more water than it looks. Although you may have to water a little more, I certainly don't think you'll have to water it that excessively.

BTW, I "customized" my smart pot and added a heavy layer of shade cloth all the way around, hopefully to keep the pot from drying out too quickly. I won't be repotting till late summer after the blooms/fruits are done.

Must be that I did something diffrent with my gritty mix because I actuall almost lost my 1st Oro Blanco grapefruit tree because it was so parched, and I was watering every 3 days. I undersand that porous soils are better for trees but for me, i had to be much more attentive with watering. For that reason alone, I don't use the gritty mix for my mango trees. I do add some perlite to lighten it and so far my 'Maha Chinook' tree is doing very well. I have towater that about every 3 days indoros under my HPS light. It has grown so much this winter that I dn't know how often it will need water when it goes back outside.

I have some special jades that are potted in 100% turface on my window sill(actually it is that oil dry stuff from Auto Zone.), and I end up watering almost daily. I know the biggest reason for that is that the base board heater unit is right below it but the combo of all that heat hitting the pot and then the light from the window has made some of tese special cuttings grow really fast.

Andrew