Tomatoes are self-pollinated, the bees have nothing to do with it.

First off, I'm not going to be much help. LOL

I have grown Brandywine about 15 years now and the last perhaps 8 of them have been the Sudduth variety. In all those years I got great production except for one year. And I don't shake plants ever. So my observations and experience differ from most of the folks here who agree with you that Brabdywine is an under producer.

My only advice is to go with what you see. If Brandywine keeps leaving you frustrated switch or cut back on number of Brandy plants.

The closest I've come to duplicating Brandwine's marvelous creamy taste is Pruden's Purple.

The newish hybrid 'BrandyBoy' is also very close and a suitable replacement on a BLT.

Here's a link to a similar thread, but talking about Marianna's Peace, which is a similar big pink Brandywinish tomato. I haven't grown Brandywine yet, but if its flowers are as different as Marianna's, then, yeah, you might need to give them some extra attention to get them to pollinate.

I have been fascinated in the difference in the flowers in these old plants compared to the flowers on my other tomato plants. They are larger, with twice the petals, and exerted stigma's. I finally have some fruit developing, and I noticed today, while checking them out, that the stigmas are still attached to the bottom of the fruit, something I hadn't seen before with other tomatoes I have grown. Maybe I just never looked before, eh?

Anyway, I resorted to the flower-rubbing method. It seemed to work. I have fruits developing. If you really think you're having problems, I suppose you could invest $30 or so in a blue mason bee nest.

Here is a link that might be useful: another thread

I grew brandywine unknown strain last year (6 plants). Between the six plants there was quite a bit of variability with fruit set. The least was 5 from one plant. And the most was around 20 for the whole season. This year I am growing 8 BW unknown from saved seed from last year, and 4 BW Sudduth side by side. I planted three weeks earlier this year, which I think is important in my hot climate. So far there is quite a bit of variability with fruit set as I observed last year. The two strains look identical. Some of the plants have about twenty fruit set and a couple others only have 2 set. So my conclusion is that if you are only growing a couple plants you may get stuck with some duds as far as production goes. The more you grow the more likely you will get some star plants in the mix. Just my experience.

Vince

Thanks for the feedback.

"Tomatoes are self-pollinated, the bees have nothing to do with it." Glad to hear that because they sure arenÂt buzzing my tomato plants this year..

If tomatoes are self-pollinating why do some need to be cross-pollinated?

How does cross-pollination occur? Is it by the wind, by insects, by earthquake or what?

All I know is that the weather has been perfect (mild temperatures mid to upper 80s, though a little breezy). The soil has been amended for maximum support to plants; the five plants are in a row with approximately 6 ft. between, and the water cycle carefully monitored. The Sudduth B-wine and Amish B-wine are both beautiful plants, the flowers are numerous, the fruit set is dismal, at best. I have applied a tomato blossom and fruit set spray twice (otherwise know as a Calcium spray). I also planted early in raised beds to get ahead of the valley heat that is just ahead.. IÂm thinking of playing some classical music for them. I

From past harvests, I know that one has to get flowering and fruit set on Brandywines to occur before the summer heat of late June, July, and August. Since this is just the third week of May, maybe I am being a bit premature on my comments. HereÂs hoping that I see robust fruit set on these temperamental, yet desirous plants, over the nest few weeks. Because, once the 100 plus degree-days are here, It will be all over for these Brandywines this season.

"Tomatoes are self-pollinated, the bees have nothing to do with it."

From what I have learned from others, including reading Carolyns posts, this statement is missleading. It has been said that tomatoes self pollinate around 95% of the time. So tomatoes do cross pollinate by means of wind, critters, or insects but statistically not nearly as often as compared to self pollination. Further, cross pollination can be intentionally mediated by people to create hybrids.

Vince

Where does this 5% number come from? What studies support this figure? Or is it ancedotal evidence?

I would hate to save seeds without bagging blossoms and trade/send them to other gardeners and have the seed not breed true. There is nothing worse to this tomato lover than to get the wrong seed whether it be from a company or a seed saver...:)

I assume you are talking about the Brandwine Sudduth strain. If so I've had very poor results and after six years I planted none this year. Trying some of the other Brandywines this year. Brandyboy hybrid did well for me last year. Also trying Brandywine Red and OTV this year. Yes I agree that tomatoes are self pollinating but also know of some that use toothbrushes, I've used a soft wisk of a broom on sprawlers and shake the cages on caged ones. So if any of this helps imagine a bee buzzing might help by just spreading it around a little. I feel weather conditions really dictate the production on Brandywines. My Mom has a different setting than my wide open patch and she gets better production but still not good. Have never tried over 5 or 6 a year so don't know if planting more would help your chances or not. The most I've ever had set and ripen here have been 3 on one plant. I did have maybe 8 green ones at frost last year on one plant. There is definately a wide range of experiences with this plant. So one everyone needs to try and make up their own mind. I have others that I and others I share tomatoes with feel are better tasting. Many say the first fruits don't taste as good and when you only get one to three it is hard to say if they would get better or not.
As to the 5% I know I've read where that is the experience of many. I plan to save my first seeds this year and don't plan on bagging many. Have read how Carolyn and others do it and if I trade will state it wasn't bagged. Of all the seeds I got from others last years unbagged all grew true to leaf type. The only ones that didn't this year was from vendors where I bought the seed. These are just my experiences. Jay

Where does this 5% number come from? What studies support this figure? Or is it ancedotal evidence?

Not sure bigdaddyj. Just believeing those more experienced than myself. Cheers.

Vince

I too have given up on Brandywine. It is just not a good producer for me.

I was raised on raising brandywines and if you are looking quantity look for a different species, but if you looking size and taste thats what you will get. But I will agree brandywines are finicky and need certain care. So far my brandywines look good and have blooms but are yet to have fruitset, but my betterboy and parks whopper already have fruit set even though they are smaller plants. If my BW are dissappointing this year I may go for other brands next season.

I have had Brandyboy the last 3 yrs and they are my favorite, but they have never produced very well. I tried Brandywine 1 yr and it was very disappointing. The Brandyboy seems to do better here, but my other plants will have blooms and Brandyboy will not have any yet. I have tried various other tomatoes and will continue to experiment. I discovered Lemon Boy last yr and really like it too, also Sungold. Shaking the plants is a small price to pay for some great tomatoes, so I will give it a try. Brandy

There was a discussion about cross-pollination rates in this other thread.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cross pollination

Brandywines do best when grown in the northeast, and maybe (with a hint of exaggeration) they only do well in the northeast. The problem with the strain is a) they do not do well in scorching heat, they will not set fruit and b) very easy to blight. They do great here in New Hampshire most years which is why for me at least they are still worth the trouble. We have had two bad seasons in a row in New England, last year was way too much rain and the year before that was too cold. I think this year we are doing better. Warm but not hot, not too much rain, and lots of sun, that favors the Brandywines.

I agree with the other posts they are not a big producer compared with some varieties, and they have no disease resistance, but the flavor is there. I grow more of them to compensate for the lower yield. For example instead of 6 plants I will grow 12 this year.

In my experience the yellow Brandywine are more productive and maybe more heat tolerant than the pink variety and are more regular shaped fruit than the pink.

Reading others experiences are so interesting. The differences in results. Like I've stated above I've had very poor production. But after approx. six years and I'd say 20 or more plants I've never lost one to disease. Always big and pretty. Lots of flowers and little or no fruit. So I considered them virtually disease free. Guess weather conditions and maybe growing practices may make a difference. Jay

My Bwines are very healthy this year...One already flowering in MA.

The supposed cross pollination rate of 5% appears to be based purely on personal observation and I assume it only applies to the immediate vicinities in which live those who observed that particular percentage of cross pollination.

Before assuming that the 5% cross pollination rate applies nationwide, or in other countries for that matter, one first should determine exactly which pollinators exist in one's immediate vicinity. And I assure you there are pollinators in significant numbers living in Lima, Peru or Austin, Texas that are not native to Upstate New York or Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina.

Oh ... and by the way ... I've seen the 5% rate stated as "5 - 10%" in some instances by the original sources of the "5% rate" which leads me to believe it is more anecdotal estimate than a scientific conclusion. And, it seems a slew of cross pollination instances, for whatever reason, frequently are pawned off as "spontaneous mutation," a phenomenon that has about a one in ten thousand chance with tomatoes. So ... form your own opinions.

There are numerous facets of this variety (and its cousins) that predispose it to poor yield, especially quality yield. There were threads addressing this subject on different occasions. As usual, the only agreement reached was to settle on disagreement. But all you need to do is compare your plants with other varieties planted nearby.

First, there is less foliage on these plants. If tomato plants are a sugar factory and leaves are the machinery then Brandywine lacks the valuable equipment. The large potato leaves are deceivingly sparse.

Second, related to the first observation, the internodal length is longer than many other varieties. This not only causes less leaves but also less blossom opportunities per foot of plant height.

Third, blossom clusters are hardly ever uniform. There is often one huge double flower with subbordinate smaller blossoms beneath it in the cluster. The double flower will often produce a misshaped fruit, so culling early is a preferable option to cutting half of it away.

I suppose the biggest physiological defect of the variety is the flower configuration which makes proper pollination difficult under usual circumstances, even worse under conditions of stress (high or low temperatures).

I've grown the Sudduth, Joyces, OTV, Platfoot(yel) and tried different seed suppliers. If this variety were not given to popularity by a decent flavor and very memorable, Civil War era name, very few of us would even bother growing it.

I grow two types of Brandywine, the regular pink one and the red one called OTV. Too me they taste the same but often one or the other produces better. I always thought that Brandywines didn't like really hot climates, like eastern zone 8 and above.

I guess that my experiences with raising several different Brandywines are pretty much like others stated above. More often than not, I have had poor production, More often than not they have been some of the first to start having yellow leaves.

Last year for a change, I had a couple of plants that were productive with some large, pretty tomatoes that tasted good. It goes without saying that I saved some seed from the productive ones and have some of them growing in the garden this year, along with other Brandywine Sudduth from seed that I ordered.

My experience with saving seed has been that I have never, in all my many years, had any crossed pollinated tomatoes that I could identify. I do not bag them and have not isolated them by a great distance. Just lucky perhaps, I dunno. If some of the Brandywines are fairly productive this year, I will save seed again and continue that strain, if not, I will probably allot their space to something else. I do have some Brandy Boys growing also.
Bill P.

I had good luck with a Brandywine grown from seed bought at a local farm supply store called Rural King. The seed was sold in a consignment display supplied by Livingston Seed Company of Columbus, Ohio .

The one plant I kept produced more tomatoes in the same time frame as an Earl's Faux that grew right next to it. Oh ... about 40 ripe tomatoes in the first two weeks of production.

In 2005, I grew a Brandywine from Chef Jeff Heirloom plants. It wasn't as productive as the Brandywine grown last year from the Livingston seeds, but it produced as well as the Cherokee Purple that grew right next to it.

Other than that, I've only grown some wacky Brandywine types like Brandy Boy F3 (very good production last year) and Brandy Boy F4 (looking really good and loaded with flowers this year), Sudduth x Unknown RL F3 PL (loaded with more flowers than any in the garden this weekend), and Brandywine x Neves Azorean Red (yet to be judged but looks like NAR and about as stingy with flowers as NAR so far) so time will tell on those.

I think thumping the plant between 11 am - 2 pm everyday when it's flowering helps set the blossoms better than if you just depend on the breeze. Just my limited experience with Brandywine.

Bill

"Tomatoes are self-pollinated, the bees have nothing to do with it."
Although tomato flowers are self fertile, they aren't truly self pollinating from a purely technical perspective. Undisturbed tomato blossoms have such low pollination rates, as proven by greenhouse testing, that they can't be classified as self pollinating. Some sort of movement, perhaps shaking would be a better word, is needed for desired pollination rates. The movement/shaking can be via wind, mechanical, manual, or sonicating bees (and probably some other means that I can't think of right now). Note that bees are not required to carry pollen, but for sonication (vibrating).

"Where does this 5% number come from? What studies support this figure? Or is it ancedotal evidence?"
Dr. Jeff McCormack (SESE) reported that his observation was 2-5%, but could be much higher under the right conditions. Jones (1916) observed 1.98 percent cross-pollination of tomatoes in New Jersey and estimated that an equal undetected amount of crossing occurred. Some studies have reported 12, 15, 26, and 47% rates of cross pollination. Several GW people (myself included) agree with the 2-5% cross pollination rate based on our experiences and personal observations. I've included a link to Dr. McCormack's write up below. Search google check public libraries for more information and studies.

Randy

p.s. To the original poster: Sorry, didn't mean to thread jack. Brandywine is not the best producer in my garden, but the taste is worth it so I put up with it being a bit persnickety. :-) Good luck.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dr. McCormack's write up on NCP and Isolation Distances

UPDATE ON PERSINCKETY BRANDWINES

Success at lastÂmy Brandywines are setting numerous fruits! I determined that itÂs important to get the plants in as early as possible. I figured that here in Sacramento Brandywines would benefit by providing them some relief from the hot mid-day sun and late-afternoon burning sun. To accomplish this I built a 25 foot arbor five feet wide, under which my tomatoes are planted, that cuts the mid-day sun by 1/3rd and the late-afternoon sun by 2/3rds.

My son, a former nurseryman and landscape contactor brought the solution to flowers getting yellow-knuckled and dropping off. He strolled back through his recollections and came up with a distant memory that the cause of this was related to a phosphorous deficiency. He recommended that I fertilize my Brandywines with MiracleGroÂs n-p-p rated at 15-30-15, which I did. This formula has 30% phosphorous.

To hedge my bet, I also applied tomato blossom and set spray. Interestingly, the tomato plants, which had little or no fruit set on the lower three feet, made a remarkable recovery. From the date of my fertilization forward and on the upper newer growth of the plants the tomato bracts thickened up, flowers burst out and many fruits set. Between the Sudduth and Amish strains there are over 30 tomatoes showing, with many flowers promising even more.

While the blossom and set spray, which is mostly a calcium spray, probably helped, the real change was brought about by the double amount of phosphorous in the 15-30-15 fertilizer.

Even though I had amended my soil, evidently these amendments were not providing the necessary phosphorous and may have been causing nitrogen-fix that was working against my plants. Compounding this is the fact that my soil here is sandy. My plants are now just under six feet tall and looking good in every way. I hope this info may be helpful..

I just have to ask... If the bees have nothing to do with tomatoe pollination (as I have seen mentioned at least a couple of times), and the tomatoes are self-fertilized, why do tomatoes produce flowers?