No.

Yes.

Italics? Is it curable with OTC meds?

cb2

Is tofu pulp considered protein? Then, yes. However, only into the outside bins because of odor.
That will also attract mites (brown), potworms and small black/dark brown beetles. One kind is sort of round about 1 mm like one find in old flour/beans and the other kind is skinny and long. They move very fast and I think they have wings but seldom used.
Once the beetles are in the bins, they're there to stay I'm afraid. Wondering where they came from.

How did you get the Italics? Please do tell.

HOW DID YOU GET THE ITALICS!??? I'd pay for that information.

With respect to protein in worm bins, my comment is:
Most experienced wormers AND the "experts" (neither of which I am) ,agree that animal protein AND animal fat are not "good" for worm bins.

Paul

OK, after recovering from seeing italics on the forum, I'll give you a most definite, unqualified, boldly capitalized and italicized NO!

Don't put anything in there you don't wanna have to deal with at later dates via odor, removal with tongs and rubber gloves, or throwing away the entire bin.

The wormies ain't gonna eat it before all the other critters it attracts causes you to reconsider the worming endeavor.

cb2

Italics

how to make italics

bold

underline

To do this you use the and i, b, or u (for italics, bold or underline.

e.g. type what you want to say, then the again.

Do all this with no spaces.

This post was edited by jasdip on Mon, Sep 8, 14 at 8:09

OK>
like>
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OK like this?>
How about this?>

Yes
Yes
NO I will not do it again!

edit: I have put small amounts of meat in on occasion Buried well in a deep bed, it goes away eventually and the worms don't seem to mind. I have read of small animals being buried in a deep outdoor bin. It will smell bad and attract vermin, along with other undesirable critters.....

This post was edited by mendopete on Mon, Aug 25, 14 at 0:42

I've put large quantities of waste cooking oil and spoiled meat in a large bin with no ill effects. The bin is 4x16 feet, and about 2' deep. One time I poured about 2.5 gallons of old cooking oil over part of the bin, and just lightly stirred in so that there was not oil remaining on the surface material. I've also put whole packages of meat in the bin, buried maybe 4", and found that it was decomposed pretty quickly. This bin has a variety of decomposers, and is in a greenhouse, so I don't worry about insects with the worms. When I check on locations where I've put large quantities of material like this a couple months later, I don't find anything left. I remember being particularly impressed that where the meat was (hopefully this was the only time I'll have such an offering for the worms!), not only was the meat gone, but the waxed paper it was wrapped in was completely gone, and there was just good old vermicompost. In a large bin, I find that if it rots, it can go in, and it will be taken care of. Putting the same kinds of materials (large amounts of oil or meat) in one of my smaller rubbermaid bins would probably make a smelly mess that would be revolting to deal with, and maybe kill the herd. I figure that in the large bin, something will start the decomposition, and worms will move over when ready.
Renais

While I don't intentionally put meat or fat in my large outdoor bin, I don't worry about small amounts that happen to be in other things, or disposing of e.g. soups with some meat, fats or oils in them. I know all the reasons not to but still figure that in small amounts it shouldn't cause much of a problem, and so far, so good. That said, I bury them somewhat to reduce smell, spread around, and ensure enough paper/cardboard to absorb.

BTW, I once did some online research for experiences of "industrial" composters with fats/oils (including even grease trap waste). From my (unscientific) review, it seemed that most had better success with fatty wastes when they were absorbed or mixed with large amounts of 'browns' - paper, cardboard and chipped wood wastes. It seemed that the absorption of the fats/oils likely removed most of the negative effects of oils going rancid, my guess is by increasing exposure to air. The more browns to absorb the oils, the less issues with smell and 'greasiness' both during composting and in the end product.

None were specifically targetted at vermicomposting though.

This post was edited by armoured on Mon, Aug 25, 14 at 10:31

We all probably should define what types of worm composting we are into and the type of bins we use in posts of this kind.

There are huge differences between indoor and portable plastic do's and don'ts, and things that prove not to be disastrous in large, outdoor/underground systems, basically the back yard. It's OK to bury your family pet out there.

The other main difference is wormers who actively monitor and maintain (fiddle withems) systems daily compared to "leave- them-alone" operators.

Chuckiebtoo

I don't normally put meat in my bins but yesterday one of the goldfish died and I decided to add it to the small flow through bin that is next to the aquarium in the basement. This morning I looked in the bin and the goldfish was surrounded and almost covered with worms. I don't think there'll be a smell issue if they eat it that quickly. I've never seen worms take to food as fast as they did this fish. When I feed with vegetables/fruit it takes a couple of days for them to cover it.

Never mind and thank you!!!

Paul

This post was edited by pskvorc on Mon, Aug 25, 14 at 13:10

We all probably should define what types of worm composting we are into and the type of bins we use in posts of this kind.

An excellent suggestion. "Boundary Conditions" are always a good idea when starting to define a problem.

Paul

Interesting observation, espor. I use feeder goldfish as "mine canaries" when I season a new tank or make some other type of major change. Consequently I often have dead goldfish handy. Into the indoor bin one will now go for my own evaluation of "fish disposal".

Paul

Delete random double post.

Paul

This post was edited by pskvorc on Tue, Aug 26, 14 at 20:41

I empty my mousetraps into my bin (110 Gallon outdoor bin in a shed). I've used it to dispose of rabbit and squirrel carcasses and the leftovers after cleaning them. My last meat addition was 3 days ago (Saturday) when one of my tilapias was found outside the tank. I went to go search for it so I could snap a picture, but couldn't find it. The dog vomit that I buried it under was still about half-there though.

I didn't find any fish bones either, but I didn't exactly go over the area with a fine-toothed comb. Once you 'break the seal' on a worm party in progress, the overriding objective is to cover it back up. ...especially when rejected dog vomit smell is in the air.

I did pick up and move a couple piles of what seemed to be just worms though. It's possible that such a pile was hiding a skeleton and I didn't recognize it because of the drastic decrease in size in such a short time. I don't believe that fish bones could disappear in 3 days.

Next time a rabbit or fish keels over, I'll bury it in the bin next to a piece of plastic. That should let me find it and track its journey back to the earth.

WOW! Profoundly different comments and first-hand experience from what the majority of internet "experts" have to say! However, as chickiebtoo pointed out, what "type" of wormer one is has a great deal to do with perspective, experience, and recommendations.

I am currently trying to find out what's "wrong" with one of my fish tanks, and as a result, two of the 5 "feeder" goldfish 'canaries' I bought have died. Yesterday, one each went into each of my indoor worm bins. "News at 11."

Paul

A bit stunned by the first-hand reports of "meat" as Eisenia fetida food, and the mention of fish as one of the kinds of "meat" used, and having dead fish on hand, I thought I'd try a little personal, hands-on experiment myself. Check the date (Aug 25, 2014), of the above post for when those fish were put in my indoor bins. Here's what they look like two days later:

and

As you can see, the second one is almost gone. Wow!

The second one was a bit smaller, and dead a day before the first one was, so it was certainly a bit more "broken down" before it went in the bin. Another 'rock on the pile' of "worms eat stuff that is broken down". I'm surprised. I suppose I shouldn't be, but even at my age, I continue to be naive with regard to believing "experts", even though I know through repeated experience that most of them are more "parrots" than experienced "experts", simply repeating what they were told. And while claiming no "expert" status, I find myself parroting the "company line" of NO MEAT! even though I HAD no personal experience.

I hope you notice all of the springtails in the first image. I have been so amazed at their densities that I took the time to measure some and estimate bin-wide densities. I started a thread on that subject titled "Springtail Densities in Indoor Bin". (I actually haven't completed the final draft, as I decided to make this post first, but it will be "there" soon.)

Paul

There is a lot of living biology in a worm bin besides worms eating stuff.

If a dead goldfish, or squirrel entrails, or things like human feces, or other decaying animal matter is deposited into a worm bin, it will decompose thru both decay and cannibalism.

Remove all worms from an established worm bin, put a dead piece of meat into it and the process will proceed without worms.

My aversion with putting repugnant things into my worm bins like, oh say.....dog vomit or human fecal matter, or dead animals is based upon dealing with it when I tend to the wormies.

Properly maintained worm bins will not extrude offensive odors. Burial usage probably will cause reluctance to check on the worms much.

Chuckiebtoo

I wasn't particularly asserting that the "worms" were "eating" the fish. However, I find it intriguing that putting moldy bread in an indoor worm bin results in decelerated decomposition, and putting dead fish in the bin results in accelerated decomposition. One should note no Eisenia fetida in the images with the fish. Only "pot worms" and springtails. Both, aggressive decomposers.

Furthermore, I would add that from an aesthetic point of view, I couldn't be more in agreement with regard to putting "disgusting" things in worm bins. Especially indoor bins. No vomit or feces from carnivore or omnivores in my bins. Only herbivore feces. I found the idea of using a worm bin for "composting" dog feces - especially the part about pressure cooking the dog poop IN THE HOUSE - positively revolting! But I guess each to his own.

I am putting the "carcasses" of dead meal worms in my indoor worm bins, but it wouldn't take too much to talk me into eating meal worms (Tenebrio molitor), - live ones - so I have no hesitancy with feeding their dead bodies to the worms. Otherwise, I don't think I will be putting any other dead animals in the bins. The fish were an experiment, just as the moldy bread was. Which, I might add, also ain't exactly 'pleasant' to pick around when "dealing with the worms". For the most part, humans are not only not detritivores, the majority usually avoid detritus, especially in its animal forms.

Paul

......." but it wouldn't take too much to talk me into eating meal worms (Tenebrio molitor), - live ones - so I have no hesitancy with feeding their dead bodies to the worms."

OK, Paul. I double-dog dare you to eat two live meal worms....one to see how terrible it is and the second to prove you're able to eat another.

But let's make this the "ice-bucket challenge" of worm eating for some worthwhile cause (maybe healthy eating habits, or sudden death syndrome research?)

But my original reason for following up your post: yes you're absolutely right. When worms begin devouring the object of their attraction, (another real good reason for spot-feeding), they continue dining until ALL that area of food is gone (unrecognizable). They do the worm squirm all over it.

If one has worms not in squirm-mode when feeding, there are some serious issues with the bin.

Chuckiebtoo

BTW, before I became a wormer, my fishing buddies and I would perform the worm-eating ritual on the way to the lake. That's why I quit both fishing and eating worms.

Paul:
""However, I find it intriguing that putting moldy bread in an indoor worm bin results in decelerated""
I have been wondering why that is so. Do you have an explanation? Thanks.

This post was edited by otis11 on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 22:14

To turn off italics you need to use .

It's lots easier here to just speak in monotone.

cb2

The protein thread becomes a formatting thread.

So if putting protein in a small indoor bin is not recommended because of variables other than the health of the worms, what is protein poisoning ?

PS CB2 can you find on this forum the What's in my worm bin post with the Cornell U video ?

"""However, I find it intriguing that putting moldy bread in an indoor worm bin results in decelerated""
I have been wondering why that is so. "

A few guesses I have for why this may happen:

1) Everyone has a different meaning for moldy bread, from occasional spot to completely green. The degree of mold also indicates moisture and dry-anything is not immediately edible to worms.

2) Perhaps the specific type of mold is impairing the microbes nearby with mycotoxin and so there's really less food for worms near the mold until it dissipates.

3) Maybe the specific mold has a direct chemical effect on the worms.

4) Most common bread has preservatives and mold inhibitors. What do these turn into when they get used up?

5) Some molds have an electrostatic charge, allowing it to disperse spores easily. A side effect is that mold often repels water. The repellency effect may make the spores amusingly inedible, but the electrical charge may repel worms directly.

5.5) If mold repels worms electrically by stimulating their nervous systems, the mechanism may be very interesting. Imagine if the worms senses the moldy area as a dangerous light source, etc. (my morning coffee is kicking in)

6) The nutrients in the bread may be locked up in fungal mycelia, blocking the worms from getting at the bread's nutrients.

7) The worms may be afraid to get sandwiched.

8) There may items in the bin that are currently more appetizing to the worms. After all, they will get to it eventually.

For the symptom of protein poisoning, I think the 'poisoned' worms are, in fact, dieing worms.

The dieing worms can be dieing from anything, but most likely:

1) Physical damage from shipping or disturbing the bin (a living bag of slime and protein in a bin of rot may find a papercut to be a mortal wound)

2) In nature, worms have the ability to move away from unfavorable conditions and toward favorable ones. In a typical home-sized bin, the conditions must be manually held at optimal levels or worms will die. Managing rot is not a simple task, and so I frequently recommend a bin large enough for a worm to escape harm and move to various safe and feed zones.

3) Combining 1 and 2, worms will die occasionally, but the more you disturb or confine them, the more you will find and cause dieing ones. Each dead worm represents an increase in the protein/nitrogen/green load that effects the overall living qualities of the bin. The living qualities of the bin may spiral downward quickly and easily with the more disturbances and the less room there is to escape the deteriorating conditions you caused.

Solution:
Use the largest worm bin you can, don't disturb it more than you have to. If you follow these two principles, finding dead worms can then be linked to other, more easily solved problems in the bin.

Starchaser - I'll see if I can find the link on this site to the discussion we had on "reasons" for the deceleration of decomposition of moldy bread. I think it was a thread I started, so maybe I can find it.

For what it's worth, I think cb2's last comments get to the 'point' fairly clearly. Often we get wrapped up in "why", and lose sight of simple solutions. Nothing wrong with asking "why"; the 'error' comes in "getting wrapped up" in coming up with an answer. Too often, trying too hard to find that answer to "why" obscures a practical solution.

Paul

Starchaser - Here is a link to the thread in which we discussed the "why" of delayed decomposition of moldy bread. http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/verm/msg051334334178.html?54

Paul

PS - The Garden Web search for this thread "failed". I used Google to find it.

OK, Paul. I double-dog dare you to eat two live meal worms....one to see how terrible it is and the second to prove you're able to eat another.

I'm a little too long in the tooth to be baited (pun intended) into doing things like this. I have a long history as a youngster of taking people up on their "double-dog dares". Through that experience, I've learned a lot. both about DOING "things" and the people that dare others to do things they wouldn't do.

THAT SAID...
The following comment: BTW, before I became a wormer, my fishing buddies and I would perform the worm-eating ritual on the way to the lake. and taking you at your word has me prepared to take your dare. Do you need photographic proof?

That's why I quit both fishing and eating worms. Too bad about the first part. I'll reserve comment on the second until I have first-hand experience.

Paul

So are we going to stop blaming protein for when worms die and look pearly ?

chuckiebtoo would never admit it but when he posts about aliens flying around his bin he means real aliens that ... used ... to fly around his bin back in '47 when he lived in Roswell. So either protein does not bother worms or aliens are not made of protein.

To return to the the "delayed decomp of moldy bread" thing:

** (If you'd prefer to skip to the Readers Digest-like summation paragraph at the end, feel free to do so under advisement)

The primary reason delayed decomp of moldy bread happens some/most of the time is also a good indicator of the overall "health" of your bin. It also is a pretty good verification of what worms really eat most of the time.

Most of the time they eat whatever materials are broken down enough to be consumed by a creature with a really small mouth, no teeth, no arms or hands, nor utensils. Usually that happens to be the biology in the bin that is eating (breaking down) stuff not breaking down....like tbone steak or unmoldy bread (mold BEING the biology eating the bread)

So, if the worms have decimated the biology populations of the bin because of a lack of other good edibles to a point where the moldy bread will lie there being attacked by only a tiny army of the scared silly into appetite-inhibiting but lucky, uneaten biology lying low to avoid the hungry worms, the bread will take longer to achieve complete moldiness, hence edibility by the wormies.

On the other hand, if you, the gatekeeper of RockHard Cafe, has a menu of worm-worthy entrees not dependent upon little pre-processors, those little micro-critters will attack that bread with vigor and unafraid of being eaten by the wormies who are busy with the melon, or stuff pureed by you, or anything else that they happen upon while out for a wriggle.

When wide and varied menu selections are provided all the creatures dining have tough choices on what to chow down on. He who hesitates is both lost and not causing that bread to totally mold enough to take the wormies minds off all the other stuff they're busy with.

**For those who skipped down to the meat of the matter: It's a food cycle, and Garbage In Garbage Out applicable, and generally speaking, the worms don't eat the food...they eat what's eating Gilberts' Grape. OR, worm-worthy food deliverers like you will cause much different bin conditions and eater populace than chunkers of stuff not ready for worms like everyone else except you who will then turn their wormies on their former allies in food processing, cannibalize them thus creating a vicious spiral of complaints to this forum about unsatisfactory results with bins.

I await the ensuing uproar with no small amount of trepidation, if not downright dread.

chuckiebtoo

Moderation, Patience, Diversity, Obedience to Mother Nature

BTW, if you continue the food chain cycle all the way to the top....or us, as we like to think...unless we find ourselves shark or bear fodder, that chain has us baiting a hook with a worm, catching a fish, and either eating it or baiting a bear trap or shark hook.

BTW2: I think maybe that whole chalkboard mathematical equation you've seen in B&W photos with Einstein standing there looking frazzled is saying the same thing. ...

While there are specific elements of your "thesis" that I might not accept as "absolute", I for one, have no argument with the general premise that "the worms keep the mold at bay".

Paul

Sorry Barbara and thanks to sbryce for the tip, it worked.
Also a thank you to buckstarchaser for info on moldy bread.

Re. protein (not necessarily animal based) in a worm bin, here's what I read, what I think, what I did, what I observed and my conclusion.
Disclaimer: I'm not a scientist so this post is based on everyday life's observation and common sense(?)
What I read: protein poisoning happens when there's gas built up inside the worm(s) and he/she/they exploded making it/them look like string of pearls (SOP). This is caused by too heavy feeding.
IMO, it depends on the worm food, whether it's fresh or decomposed material.

I collect kitchen scraps in a sealed plastic bag (to bar flying critters). Depending on ambient temp. it could be a few days or a week, w/o new stuff being added to the bag, the bag will start to bulge from gas build-up as material start to decompose. So I thought, aha! This must be what caused SOP.
It is not necessarily protein as such to cause SOP but I think protein is more acute, maybe because of the nature of protein that will attract more/faster bacteria to cause gas(es).
I have mentioned several times on this web-site that I fed "gruel" to my herds. Old cereal, oatmeal nobody wants to eat, old flour cooked into a gruel. I keep it in ice-cream containers (with lid) and after 10 days or so it will form bubbles and rise. I guess that could/would happen in a worm's gut. I do not feed the gruel until past the bubbling stage.
I do not eat a lot of pasta but I guess that could happen to people who eat a lot of pasta especially al dente (actually, not just pasta but anything al dente), feeling gas build-up in their gut. What we would call indigestion except that indigestion in worms since they are so delicate, will explode them.

My conclusion: As a rule, I do not feed my worms "fresh" stuff except melons and the kind. My worm food mainly consist of juice pulp which are several months old and I feed them heavy. The only "bad" result from this is heat (and additional mites and pot worms if you happen not to like them) so I fed only on 1 side of the bin (a short trench) at any one time. Heat is a positive thing when the weather starts getting colder, like now. However, I cannot feed as heavy in colder months, just have to keep an eye and watch the rate/speed food disappears.
I have fed oranges (from juicing) but really soft and decomposed w/o visible neg. effect.
BTW., I'm talking about a 2x2 ft. and 2x4 ft. bins.