I have absolutely zero background on CP-PL but as a grower of other PL varieties and CP, I am very interested in your results.

Please keep us posted!

Thanks.....

Well be on the loose this weekend also Hoosier, and Ill try and post my CP plant. ps. Kermit says HI...

Wondering more about what you got hoosier.
Ordered CP and that is the way they are labeled ... simply Cherokee Purple.
Was soooo looking forward to them.
Talked earlier today with a friend that I gave some plants to and he stated that he had gotten 7-8 "golfball sized tomatoes" from them -> not what I was expecting.
I went and checked mine .... several are turning ... small and red. So I don't guess that I get to try them this year as expected.
The plants are potato leaf though ... which searching/hunting lead me to this post. Plants are good, 3-4 ft tall but ....
This is a pic of my
"Cherokee Purple"

{{gwi:1349382}}

Cozy,

I got my seed from TomTrees who lives in New Jersey. Tom got his seeds from Spudleaf Willie
who lives in New Mexico. Spuds tells me he acquired his seeds for Cherokee Purple about 1994
or 1995 from a fellow in Ohio or Pennsylvania, I think he said ...
I'll check on that and confirm it later to you. So, the Cherokee Purple, Potato Leaf I'm growing
apparently is different than the Cherokee Purple, Potato Leaf that reportedly arose in Jere Gettle's garden,
because it is distinctly separated by time and location.

Here are some updated pictures of the Cherokee Purple, Potato Leaf that I currently have in the garden.

June 23, 2007:

Top view:

Breaking color yesterday, July 5, 2007 ... you can clearly see it will be a dusky dark pink, and not red.

The plant was set in the bed on April 21, 2007, so it was about 75 nice warm, sunny and generally
dry days to break color. I plan on eating that tomato Sunday! But first I have to extract the seeds
since it was hand pollinated with Novikov's Giant pollen ... maybe you can see the snipped calyx
and the string tag on the stem, identifying the cross.

Bill

Arrrggghhhhh!
I got mine from BC ...
"Cherokee Purple
Purple Tomato
Bulk 1/4 OZ.
Lot #15882 Germ 09/06"
I wanted CP and this apparently ain't it :(
I know absolutely that it is not a mistake here for, in the excitement of trying something else besides Brandy, I even ordered labels from John Henry to keep separated.
But hey, maybe this will be interesting and something will come of it. I have confirmed that all is the same with 4 folks in 3 states and some 20 plants from the same seed/starts.

Cozy,

I'm so sorry that you and your friends were sent the wrong seeds for Cherokee Purple. It is truly a great tomato. It's VERY disappointing to hear that your vendor was unable to supply correct seeds :::frown::: especially in the volume you spent good money to acquire.

I've never bought seeds for Cherokee Purple, and the regular leaf version I've grown came as transplants from Chef Jeff Heirlooms, a division of Bert R. Hybels, Inc. in Michigan . This year's plant appears to be the best ever regular leaf plant I bought as a seedling. I've saved seeds from the other Chef Jeff/Bert Hybels Cherokee Purples, but always break down and buy another one of his in a 4" pot ... they're just so daggone good looking! I now will have seeds from three different regular leaf Cherokee Purple plants grown in three different years.

I have no idea where Hybels acquire their seeds, but they are good ones. I do know all his plants sold in this area (and down thru the South) are grown in contract greenhouses. You might try to find a vendor near you.

As for the potato leaf version of Cherokee Purple, the one I'm growing (first time) this year is great as well and has really put on a boatload of fruit. I'd be more than happy to share seeds for either or both versions with you and your friends.

I need to open a Hotmail acct. for this, since the GW email will not deliver to and from my page for some unknown reason.

Bill

Cozy, those look nothing like the CP Regular leaf I grew last year. Still, maybe you lucked out and got a good mystery tomato there, who knows?

I'm growing CP-PL from Bill in NM this year but all my seeds came up RL...Wonder how it will compare to the real CP? Is it CP?

Anyway, here's a pic of Jere's Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf, description also by Jeff Nekola:

Cherokee Purple, Potato Leaf

4-5", flattened, smooth, dark purple fruits on potato-leaved plants.

MO GE J 98
Jeremiath Gettle, Mansfield, MO

Developed from potato leaf plant in 1995.

{{gwi:1349386}}

For me perhaps the most important question about leaf form changes is a genetic one.

How does one go from an RL to a PL?

Conventionally, and using C and c:

CC is homozygous dominant and RL

Cc is heterozygous and RL

cc is homozygous recessive and PL

I used to say that an RL variety could mutate to a PL in two seperate steps, going from CC to Cc and then to cc/

or an RL could be Cc and go to PL in one step.

The assumption being that these mutations were spontaneous single gene ones, which means they are heritable and no stabilization is needed.

But Keith ( Hortist) raised the issue of alternative mechanisms by which traits of a variety can change.

For instance one doesn't have to assume a single spontaneous mutation. One can invoke DNA inversions, gene duplications, deletions, loop formations and more.

So what? LOL

With all of these alternative mechanisms there's always the possibility that other genes are deleted or changed.

So what?

It means that if CP goes from RL to PL has it changed in ways that can or cannot be detected.

So the fruits of the PL version of a RL look like the original and taste like the original. Is there any way to know if only the leaf trait was altered?

No, there is not.

And several folks have posted that they do not consider the PL version of CP to be the same as the original RL. This is in reference to the Gettle PL CP/

I know nothing about Bill Malin's PL CP and haven't seen anyone share how it does or does not compare with the original RL CP.

PL versions of RL's pop up with regularity. Only if one knew for a fact that just the gene for leaf form had changed, as in a single spontaneous mutation, could one call the PL version the same as the RL version.

But since we dont know what the actual genetic change is, is it right to call a PL version the same as the original RL version and just add the words potato leaf to the name, which is sometimes, but not always done?

Just a few things to think about when it comes to PL versions of RL varieties.

Carolyn

And several folks have posted that they do not consider the PL version of CP to be the same as the original RL. This is in reference to the Gettle PL CP/

I know nothing about Bill Malin's PL CP and haven't seen anyone share how it does or does not compare with the original RL CP.

PL versions of RL's pop up with regularity. Only if one knew for a fact that just the gene for leaf form had changed, as in a single spontaneous mutation, could one call the PL version the same as the RL version.

I'm not growing CP this year and instead am growing Bill's "Spudakee Purple." So I can't compare it in the same year... but all mine were RL anyway. So if it flip-flopped on leaf type, is my RL version, of Bill's PL version, of [maybe Craig's] RL Cherokee Purple... Cherokee Purple?

I'm also growing PL versions of these:

Black Krim (Flathead Monster)
Black from Tula (Spudatula)
Russian 117 (Spudleaf 117)
Bisignano #2/Craig's Potato Leaf (I have Craig's PL listed as both "Accidental potato leaf variant of Bisignano #2 which may not be stable" and from Jeff Nekola's blurb, "odd, wispy potato-shaped leaves; stabilized cross with Bisignano....Accidental variant of Bisignano #2." Any comment on which is correct? Is it a cross or a flip-flop?

Quote from posts above:

"I'm growing CP-PL from Bill in NM this year but all my seeds came up RL...Wonder how it will compare to the real CP? Is it CP?" ... and ... "I'm not growing CP this year and instead am growing Bill's 'Spudakee Purple.' So I can't compare it in the same year... but all mine were RL anyway. So if it flip-flopped on leaf type, is my RL version, of Bill's PL version, of [maybe Craig's] RL Cherokee Purple... Cherokee Purple?" [Korney]

How many Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf seeds (from Bill in NM) were planted? If just one or two, then maybe a coincidental "mutation back to regular leaf" is a remote possibility. If a dozen or so seed were planted and 100% showed regular leaf, then the two possibilities would appear to be: 1) seed mix-up by the planter, or 2) F1 crossed seed with a regular leaf parent.

To help determine what happened, would it be helpful to save seeds from this year's tomatoes and wholesale test germinate some this fall just to see the rate of regular leaf to potato leaf? If the rate was near 75% RL to 25% PL, could we assume an F1 cross with a RL parent? If still 100% RL, I guess we could choose between planter mix-up or "leaf form flip flop." Hmmmmmm.

BTW, my Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf seeds from Bill in NM via TomTrees were 100% potato leaf and I planted every seed Tom sent me. The plants are growing in various local gardens and all are breaking color this week at the same time and in with the same characteristics.

Bill in Indiana

I would love some seeds. Oh please.

Hoosier, I usually plant 6 seeds to get a few plants, that's with just about all varieties except my own saved seeds, which I start 10 to test germination and if any PL's show RL, and any older seeds to continue a line, like Dr. Lyle (maybe 10, have to check.)

Of the 6 started, 4 or 5 germinated (officially 4 at a cutoff date, though #5 may have been later.) 100% were RL.

I'm actually growing about 20 of Bill's varieties this season. The Tula & Flathead Monster I had both PL & RL, and Red House Free Standing, supposedly PL, was definitely Rugose, though hard to tell if RL or PL. I also am growing Roughwood Golden Plum, I think about F15, and the leaves look more RL than PL (it should be PL.) The first true leaves looked nothing like typical teardrop shaped PL-type leaves.

The thing is, I'm pretty sure Bill doesn't grow any RL, so hard to assume it can be a cross, unless maybe it happened way before he ever grew them.

Bill,
If you have any extra seeds would like some. Can send a SASE or a list of seeds I would have to exchange. Thanks Jay

Korney,

I suppose if four of four are RL, then something's up with the seed. Like I said, mine came from the same source via Tom in NJ ... Tom might post a picture of the seed parent here in this post, I hope ... and 100% of the sprouts were PL. So, the mystery continues regarding Bill's Cherokee Purple PL.

Now, as to various "potato leaf" varieties not having strictly teardrop shaped leaves ... or otherwise looking a little "off-PL," well that may just be a matter of definition. Some folks, Bill included, have a broader definition of "potato leaf" than other folks. But I'll let him clarify that himself.

And with regard to Redhouse Free Standing looking more rugose than PL ... or rugose but hard to tell if RL rugose or PL rugose ... man, that can really get into grey territory, huh, when you're talkin' 'bout whether a tree type rugose is RL or PL? I've got one like that this year too ... Orange Pixie F1 ... definitely rugose, but otherwise potato leaf shaped with smooth edges and single long, teardrop shaped leaves growing upward at 45* angle to the stems. I'm just glad when it comes to those types there's a 3rd category of leaf form called "rugose" :::grin:::

But the mystery remains why your Cherokee Purple PL is so much different than mine in leaf shape when the seeds came from the same place???

Bill in Indiana

Shoot, I'd be happy with CP in kudzoo or water oak leaf form right now ;)
Thanks for the seed offer Bill ( I would like them and hey, I have almost a 1/4 ounce of Faux CP Red Golfballs). I'll call Jere Monday and surely it will be made right.
Hal -> Not wanting to hijack a thread and off to practice putting with my CPs!

Actually, there are at least 4 or 5 different TYPES of potato leaves, including serrated, though most people here don't really acknowledge them because little is known about them in the English speaking world, we usually just recognize the typical one we are so familiar with, and even that one has various shapes & sizes.

Back to the CP PL, I had room left for 1 CP but didn't grow it and grew the CP PL instead, and it is RL, so to me I'm still growing 1 CP and will compare it to the real CP of my memory. I will check that plant the next chance I get to see if it still looks RL.

Actually, there are at least 4 or 5 different TYPES of potato leaves, including serrated, though most people here don't really acknowledge them because little is known about them in the English speaking world, we usually just recognize the typical one we are so familiar with, and even that one has various shapes & sizes.

*****

Mark, I think it's a little bit more complex than that. Yes, there are several so called divisions of PL foliage and those were described by some German botanists and actually Bill Malin refers to them, I think with a link, at his webpage as I recall.

I think that very few folks actually do know about the various PL forms that the Germans have described, which is problem number one, but I also think it's very difficult to ID with authority the specific type of PL form of a particular variety that one might be growing.

I know that's true for me b/c just out of curiousity I tried to do so.

And I have to wonder of what use that botanical clssification is to the majoity of home growers?

I know that there are some varieties that I grow that have differently shaped leaves all on the same plant at the same time b'c sometimes young leaves differ from older leaves.

I'm content just trying to accurately determine that any new variety in particular as well as confirming previously described varieties that I'm growing, are either PL or RL. ( smile)

Carolyn

I agree but there are times when people see a listing described as PL, grow it, and don't see the PL and think they have the wrong seeds. There were a few varieties I've personally grown that were really a toss-up... I remember at least one that you'd swear was PL but serrated, and everyone therefore considered it RL.

In the leaf types pic below, see the one at about 9 o'clock. PL or RL? I personally believe it's a serrated or pinnate PL. I believe the variety was advertised by Chuck Wyatt as PL too.

{{gwi:1305458}}

As for different looking potato leaves, I grew Giant Italian Potato Leaf from seeds from Craig a few years ago and got about 5 different shapes on the same plant, some below:

{{gwi:1349387}}

I still believe that some varieties are believed to be considered the wrong leaf type and abandoned as "incorrect" and not pursued.

Mark

Hey everyone ...
Yup, got the Cherokee Purple PL, from our Spud bud last season.
I started 6 seeds, got 6 beautiful PL plants.
Kept 1 and sent the rest packing to friends and family.
No RL's in sight.

Everyone really liked them a lot.

They were one of our top 5 tomatoes of last year.
I meantioned it to a couple of friends, and what can I say, no-one can pass up ANY FORM of Cherokee Purple, lol.

NOW - what I am unsure of is if this tomato was "born" mutated or if it was created. There were certain features about the PL version that "could" suggest a mutation, and that was the cracking spiral on the crown. But if you got RL Mark - maybe these were created ? Mark do your CP RL look like the original RL ? Could you post a pic so we can compare ?

Again, I'm not sure.

But I did save seed from my harvest - sent some to PV and some others in TX, and started my own in 2007. Everyone got PL.

I am growing both the RL & PL Cherokee Purple.
My saved seed for the PL, and a wonderful lady named "raisemybeds" Cherokee Purple RL seed.

Mark, if you'd like some of my seed stash, I'd be happy to
mail them to you. I'm almost positive we were going to
trade for "something" this season, and instead of a SASE I could drop some CP PL seed in.

On the topic of leaf forms. I do believe there are leaf forms that display both RL & PL traits. I've been under the impression they are called "Intermediate" leaf forms.
I first noticed it on a Lillians Yellow plant. I grew 2 in a 5-Gallon pot and one of the leaves "looked" PL, but had "thumbs" and maybe a finger or 2 on each side. After some research, and "consultation" I found out about "Intermediate" leaves.
(the Lillians X produced a beautiful medium sized bi-color).

The most recent "Intermediate" leaf form that I can describe this season, is the "RL" version of Polish C.
The leaves resemble oak leaves, but are not VERY pointy/serrated.
To me, it points towards PL, and knowing it HAS/HAD PL genes its porb. a combo.

Does any of that make sense ?

~ Tom

ps. Flat Head Monster, and the SpudTula plants are for another thread Mark ; ) ...

Here is a link that might be useful:

Here is a pic of the original plant.

~ Tom

Here is a link that might be useful:

and what can I say, no-one can pass up ANY FORM of Cherokee Purple

*****

Well then Tom, have you grown Indian Stripe which is Cherokee Purple as grown in isolation for many many years?

Fruits are a bit smaller, a bit lighter and more to the truss.

I think I remember Bill, aka Hoosier, saying he liked it very very much, and so do quite a few others.

If you've forgotten the background on this one I can give it again. Also have seeds to share. Not a general offer folks.

Carolyn

I know "some" of the background
Carolyn but have yet to grow it out.
You have peaked my interest !

Mark - I'm really interested in seeing a pic of your plant.
It can be similar to RL CP, but it's no longer CP. Same with the PL - its close, but will never be the same.

~ Tom

Here's some updated pictures of Cherokee Purple PL from Spudleaf Willie seeds via TomTrees to me.
Thanks guys.

Yeah ... I pick'm "green" to avoid cracks, critters and crud. After a few days on the counter,
they are more near eatin' stage.

Here's one that was a bit riper and really tasted awesome! Eat your heart out Brandwine :::smile:::

Beautiful pics PV - outstanding !

Good growing ...

Tom