Many people use "bush" to mean "determinate." "Vine" is used for "indeterminate." I'm under the impression that these are the traditional parallels of the more scientific terms.

I don't know if dwarf and tree-type tomatoes would be considered as falling under the term "bush." But as "bush" is used in WNC, it definitely refers to determinates.

Agree and "tree" isn't normally used to label a determinate variety, at least IME. Nor is ISI necessarily = to dwarf or bush in commonly used tomato vernacular.

But there are many different "regional" labels bantered around including compact indeterminate (shorter than avg.), semi-determinate (taller than average), semi-indeterminate (same as compact indeterminate), etc. etc. so it can be very confusing.

Bottom line is do you want a determinate or an indeterminate variety and then you can "fine tune" from that point.

But more importantly, can I ask why is the size of the plant, rather than the more common goals like taste, disease tolerance, color of fruit, and production, your focal point? Plant size may be a somewhat secondary concern if one is growing in containers but it is a rather unusual central focus. ;)

Perhaps if you could clarify what your primary goal is, what the need is, we could suggest specific varieties.

Dave

Dave:

Well, right now I grow only a few plants in a small garden plot, so my personal goal is to simply figure out which plants are compact but produce well and steadily. Also, we have a somewhat short growing season here, and I had good luck using a tunnel cloche (=small hoophouse)to grow plants early- I think short plants that don't need caging or elaborate supports would work great with my setup.

If I can narrow down the available varieties to those that work well for my growing situation, then I should have plenty of varieties to chose from in terms of taste, size, color and so on. Remember, not everyone lives in the Southern US, with a large garden right in their backyard!

Anyway, I am not soliciting more recommendations this time, I am mainly just trying to figure out what all those terms really mean so I can make informed choices about buying/trading seeds or transplants.

plantslayer- there is a new and exciting project underway that might intrest you greatly called the "Cross Hemisphere Dwarf Project". Details of the project are posted on a different site that I visit from time to time. The main goal of this project in short is to cross dwarf types with well known tasty heirlooms varieties and select for tasty "dwarf" or "compact" type varieties. Really interesting stuff and they have made alot of progress in such a short time. I've heard talk about possible releases in the next year or two.

Damon

Damon,

I did indeed come across that while trying to learn more about dwarf plants... it looks like the project heads are putting together a website:

http://dwarftomatoproject.net

Sounds like fun... I wish I could grow more than 7 or 8 plants so I could help them with their "growouts"... Incidentally, I couldn't figure out where the project was being discussed at the TVille site [lol, it's been blocked for spamming Gardenweb], so I am not sure how to keep up with the project. According to Tatiana's TB they might have stable varieties by next year!

As far as fitting more tomatoes in a smaller space, I'd choose dependable varieties, then prune them to just a few stems and keep them well staked and supported so they would stay narrow. Or am I missing something?

Re. your hoophouse requirements, it would probably be helpful to know the height of your hoophouse and what age tomatoes you'll want to fit inside it ("should be no higher than 16 inches at 12 weeks" or whatever). I don't know enough about that to be able to help. I hope someone has the right kind of data for you.

The tunnel cloche/hoophouse was only between 3 and 4ft tall (it was made with 10ft PVC hoops) and the plants loved it, but we took it down when the temp lows got to be consistently above 51/52*F around June 1st here. The problem I ran into was that while the cloche was warm enough, I couldn't find a good way to solid supports in such a small spaces. We were able to fit wimpy hardware store cages in to support the Siletz, which still required a good bit of foliage pruning to maintain healthy air circulation and all that.

Despite that issue, plants flourish in their current spacing. I am sure there are plenty of trellising and pruning systems that would work with the hoophouse, but I'd rather keep it as simple as possible. When you live several blocks from where you garden, don't have your own car, and you don't permanently own the plot, it's not so worthwhile to buy and move materials around just to build supports for seven or eight tomato plants. Also, stuff like that makes the plot conspicuous to vandals and tomato thieves. So, dwarves or other compact plants that can be grown with a stake or small cage sound like a good idea.

When you live several blocks from where you garden, don't have your own car, and you don't permanently own the plot, it's not so worthwhile to buy and move materials around

I can relate to that, having lived without a car for the last 25 years (relatively simple in the city, but totally impractical where I am now).

stuff like that makes the plot conspicuous to vandals and tomato thieves

You never know what will attract the wrong kind of attention. However, apparently your hoophouse hasn't been bothered, so maybe a few stakes wouldn't be either? Some people with plots visible to strangers choose to grow GWRs or other colors that don't look ripe.

I did an extensive search for info on dwarfs and short determinates last fall. It was very frustrating to try to sort out the various terms since I'd never seen one in the flesh. Most people don't focus on plant "footprint" and height so I finally just took the shotgun approach and grew out 60+ varieties to see for myself.

1)Dwarf and Tree are much as you describe but I wouldn't say VERY slow growth. I can say that, in general, they aren't early. Dwarf can also be used to describe a very short plant such as Red Rocket. Bush seems to mean a very different growth habit. They're short plants that make a lot of branches that all bear about equally. Extreme Bush is an exception. It's 30", very early, 2 stems, short internode, determinate. In truth these terms are used interchangeably. Czech Bush, Polish Dwarf and Russian Red (tree) are all very similar.

2) Semi-determinate and Compact indeterminate are practically the same thing for me except that the SD might get twice as tall. Royal Hillbilly is a good example of CI and got about 3.5' for me. Homestead 24 a SD got to at least 6'.

3) The tree and dwarf types seem to prefer only a few main stems with the fruit and foliage close to the stem and with less distance between them. The indeterminates think they can have all the space they want. They like to form a new main stem at every leaf axil and stretch out a greater distance between everything. The determinates are very much individuals. Some like a few main stems and some like to multiply them like rabbits. Some have short distances between leaves and others stretch out like indeterminates.

You can alter the habits of most by pinching. At least some determinates will completely change their habits and give more fruit if you pinch out the growth tip of the first main stem. A 2' bush can make a larger footprint than a 6' indeterminate. Everything depends on how much space you want to give a plant, how much time you want to spend pinching and how well you can support them. Even the 12" Red Robin needs a stake. When the dwarfs and determinates get old and ratty looking, you can cut them almost to the ground and they'll come back again.

Dwarfs, determinants, semideterminants, and indeterminants refer to genetic growth (dwarfs) and flowering traits, and the genetic mutations can be mixed and matched. "Compact" refers to plant size. Tree and Bush designations are untrustworthy.

Dwarfs have short internodes thick stems and rugose leaves. Determinants flower from growth tips, which stops growth. Semi-determinants do this but then put out more growth tips so you get a late season crop.

Lime Green Salad is a compact determinant dwarf variety. Sophies Choice is a compact determinant variety, but not a dwarf even though it grows to about the same size as LGS (20"-24"). Some dwarfs get 5 ft high. Most dwarfs are compact indeterminants, but there are only a handful on the market, most with "dwarf" as part of the name. If dwarf is not part of the name look for "tree type with rugose foliage" in the description.

The TVille site has a whole forum section devoted to the dwarf project

plantslayer,
From everything you have said, I really think Sophie's Choice is for you!

Also, not sure if it was explicitely mentioned, but I believe that "indeterminate" and "determinate" also refer to fruit set - determinate sets fruit "all at once" and indeterminate will chug along setting fruit until frost, as I understand it.

To me, the perfect tomato plant would be no more than 3-4 feet high, needing only one central stake, producing red or pink fruit at least as big as a tennis ball, and would set fruit over a long period of time, starting early, and tasting great! So I am always on the lookout for a compact indeterminate.

You are in Zone 8? That doesn't sound like a cool growing season...?

Well, last frost for Seattle is April 20th, and nighttime temperatures don't get to 50*F+ until the last week of May or so, then in the fall it gets pretty cloudy and damp, and tomato plants don't do very well after that, usually mildewing or otherwise starting to die off by the end of September in my experience. So the growing season itself isn't very cold, but you need to somehow protect plants (my cloche) if they are set out earlier than late May. Most people just plant out around June 1, and chose early varieties. People are usually pretty surprised when they come across the big plants in my patch right now, since most greenhouse starts put out on June 1 still look kind of small (not that being big and leafy makes for a better plant necessarily). I am kind of concerned about what is going to happen if the only red tomatoes in the community garden are ours...

Thanks for the advice everyone, I guess that compact indeterminates in a small cage, or dwarf varieties with stake might be good for me. New Big Dwarf, Sophies choice, Anna's Russia and others mentioned sound like good bets.

You weather in Seattle sounds like what we are having in MA this year!

P.S. Anna Russian can be pretty tall - mine is almost as tall as my other regular sized plants, though it is very skinny - it didn't seem to branch out like the others, so it is one very straight tall stem - the giraffe of my garden. But definitely not a shortie, FYI.

Consider both Bush Goliath and Bush Champions - both old dependable indeterminates that have now been hybridized to ISI forms. 3' tall with good production of medium large red fruit throughout the season.

Dave

Cleo,

Is it thin enough to be handled by a long stake alone? If so, that would be OK too I guess... I would just put a construction stake next to the baby plant, then duct tape a longer stick to this when it gets to be really tall.

Lots of great information here, thanks all!