This question doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It seems like a continuation of growneat's thread, and is based on the following assumptions:

1. Minnie Zaccaria developed a "stable" hybrid with two parent lines that gave a uniform F1, rather than simply a cross pollination that had some genetic segregation. The whole thing is murky making these F1's suspect to those who would dare doubt and heretics to those who wouldn't for the religious following Big Zac has garnered.

2. Next, that Giant Tomato growers are clamoring" to get seed from the particular Boudyo line that is basically Timm derived like so many other later generations in the crowd sourced breeding program. At first glance this seems more of a sales pitch to me than anything else, IMHO!

3. Most importantly, the question on "stability" is poorly defined, as it has caused anemic (figuratively) plants at first reading, that require special babying above and beyond the practices even the Giant guys were doing. So if you want to call an anemic plant that can produce one humongous tomato when babied with honed techniques, well, how reproducible has it been? What is it? Big big big, big big? Or was it 5 fused blossom minimum average budding? Fused blossom popping out right off the bottom of the stem early on? Which were the breeding criteria to better judge your claims for discussion?

4. These inbred Big Zac (OPs) are definitely not the end of the work. Stability is a subjective definition. You can get Giant Big Zac's from plenty of sources, along with vigorous BZ's that in total yield make a much more interesting growing experience IMO. And more vigor equates to a little less antibiotics, which makes that submarine sandwich that looks like Saturn and its rings more desirable ;-)

In summary, breeding is never done unless you are working to some pre-defined goal, which we see most frequently in the past in commercial seed companies honing a process for grower harvest ... and not changing the program by pulling up your britches along the way. But the nature of the Big Zac obsession with the Biggest Zac, is a never ending pursuit, simply because it will not be stable until everyone can have their name in the Guinness Book LOL

Happy Growing, JMO :-) PC, While nursing a one pound Big Zac derived from Timm's. I am waiting for that Submarine sandwich (giant sausage tomato). First one to breed it getâÂÂs the Subway Sandwich $1,000,000 prize for an exclusive with them ⦠jk? Ha ha ha? FF 10 years into the future and then we can see ;-)

Marv, the number of generations to go to stability from a hybrid is dependent on the initial parental input and what specific genes they contributed. In the case of Big Zac F1 there were just two parents. The number of generations can vary from 3 to about 9.

Below I've linked to Keith Mueller's superb website, click on Culture and then to the link about gene basics to see how gene segretation works and how long it might take.

In a nutshell, when saved seeds from selections made along the way give rise to identical plants and fruits, and most folks I know who do this put out about 20 plants, then you can say that stability was reached.

When I dehybridized Ramapo F1 it took only 3 generations.

When I dehybridized the accidental cross that led to what was named OTV Brandywine I had to go out to the F5.

What I don't really understand in your post above is why the fruits got bigger with more generations and I say that b'c I know many whohave done the same, that is, selecting only the largest fruits in terms of hoping for genetic adaptation, and it hasn't worked. Same for those who save seeds only from the earliest fruits hoping to adapt a variety to that trait.

In most cases we know of true adaptation takes upwards of thousands of years both by subtle mutations and human selection.

Two excellent examples are Ethiopian Wheat and many rice cultivars.

Perhaps the upsizing is due to different methods of growing Big Zac selections, disbudding, using different amendments, sprays, as you've mentioned before when you posted about the new world record one,etc. But without messing around with other variables that might upsize fruits, I'm not really undertstanding that with more F generations, in succession, how fruit size could reach genetic stabiity that quickly.

Hope I'm making some sense here.

Carolyn

Here is a link that might be useful: Genetic Segregation

Pupilla, Lubadub is aka growneat who posted the thread about the new record tomato.

It took me too long to find Keith's website which is where genetic segregation and final stability from an hybrid, whether due to deliberate breeding or a natural cross pollenation, such that I posted a few minutes after you.

I must spend several hours sometime deleting lots of stuff in my faves., the better to find links faster,LOL

Carolyn, who notes that genetic stability is not a subjective definition as youposted above, see Keith's discussion of that, and Keith is not an amateur as I've noted here before, having an advanced degree from NCSU under Dr. Randy Gardner who is very well known in the tomato world for all the varieties he has bred.

Pupilla, despite everything you are saying, you cannot dispute the fact that the process ultimately produced a new world record with an 8.41 pound tomato. I am simply trying to understand the process. Lots of growers were growing the same seed and selecting out the biggest tomato grown with lots of giant growers then growing that "next generation seed" the next year. Using a similar process pumpkin growers have now gotten the top pumpkin weight up to 2300 pounds. Something has to be going on here? I am trying to understand what. As far as the parents of Big Zac, I know that they were both listed on the Seed Saver's Exchange as heirloom and so I have to assume they were stable varieties. And Carolyn, I have Keith's site location and have been there lots of times. And yes, I used to be growneat but no longer as that name has been removed from me. And Pupilla, I love your terminology "crowd sourced breeding program."

Carolyn, I don't understand why it wouldn't be as easy to select for fruit size, as for any other wanted characteristic when growing out successive generations. In fact, it seems like it should be easier, because you only care about a singe trait -- you don't have to worry about retaining anything else, like correct color, leaf type, disease tolerance or taste. I don't think any of the competition growers care whether the current Big Zac progeny are much like the original F1 as it was created. All they wanted was the size genes to keep pumping up. Since there is a lot of seed sharing from each winning weight tomato, you've got many growers in different countries growing out large amounts of prized seeds from the same winning tomato. It's publicly determined which seeds had it in them to add ounces or pounds to the last official recorded weight, so those seeds in turn become highly desirable for the next pampered generation. Selection for size at work, no?

OK, I forgot the original question was whether this was stable -- I think perhaps that is a question that is not relevant to the competition growers. It should be stable in that it would continue to produce large tomatoes, but as to color or taste or other characteristics not specifically selected for, it might not be.

Yes Dee, the question was about stability and knowing when that had been reached which I tried to indicate in my above post.

Just think of all the older commercial ones that had but two parents that were released when they were stable , ones like Rutgers, WI55, Sioux, Bonny Best, Marglobe, etc. as compared with the F1's that had several parental imputs in the two breeding lines that led up to the final F1 when the last cross between the last accession in each breeding line was crossed to form the F1. Much harder to dehybridize and still not stable as some say whohave gotten them from the SSE Yearbook..

Then look at all the ones bred by Bill Jeffers and Keith Mueller and Lee of J and L Gardens, etc.,and so many more, even the ones that Karen from Canada is now working with and is having fabulous luck with her cross between Captain Lucky and Ludmilla's Pink Heart.

She's made several selections, likes one right now and is planning to put out scads of plants for the F3 growout.

Marv, all I know was that one of the parents of Big Zac F1 was an heirloom variety of Minnie's, and I hadn't known that she ever named it, and that from all of the articles about her at Bob Ambroses newsletter that I spoke about before when she was winning all the awards at that NJ event.

I never knew the name of the other parent, she never mentioned it all the times that Bob Ambrose interviewed her.

So if both names were in an SSE YEarbook, they wouldn't be in the Public Catalog/Public website, I wouldn't have known them.

And why would they be public such that anyone could use those two parents in a breeding project.

When I wanted to dehybridize Big Boy F1 my mentor was Dr Oved Shiffriss, who bred it when at Burpee. and I was trying to get out the one parent Teddy Jones, an heirloom which I knew was one parent. I won't continue with this BUT Oved told me the other parent with the proviso that I never tell anyone what it is/ Fine, but seeds for Teddy Jones are only held by Burpee and Petoseed since when John Peto left Burpee to go to CA and form that Co, he took Teddy Jones seeds with him, and TJ is one parent of Better Boy F1, which he bred.

So even if I'd been a loudmouth and named the one parent there is absolutely no way that anyone could pry seeds out of Petoseed or Burpee for Teddy Jones.

All for now,

Carolyn

Okay. Thanks for all the input. I feel like I have my answer. Taste is not the primary objective when going for big. Neither is color. Only one thing counts in a giant tomato contest, weight. Your input Carolyn was especially helpful. Thank you too Pupilla though I get the impression that big tomatoes are not necessarily your thing? I have some seeds I would be glad to share with you if it is.

Thanks Carolyn & Marv, I'll take a rain check on those seeds Marv unless Carolyn wants them LOL ⦠till I can figure out how to successfully grow big tomatoes in my climate, since it sounds like the crème de la crème of BZ breeding material. It is more of a sour grapes sort of thing, probably. The breeding pressure is for the single huge tomato which I'm not that keen about for the following reasons. Other traits have been compromised, that in a vigorous, stabilized OP line should be there. I think the BZ crowd is committing a terrible error by successively omitting excluding traits just to get the one. Could be wrong about it but there is no real target from what I see other than size ⦠seems logical that other traits are going to the wayside and that is not how a real head breeder would define a program. They are probably going the wrong way and need to incorporate new traits into it by reaching out to tap other genetic resources not present.

So in creating the monster among giants, the latest BZ doesn't appeal to me as much since it is too resource intensive to carry a plant for just one tomato in North Florida. I will be growing MegaMarv in the spring, not for Guinness, but just because you gave me some info on it and I value the personal connection. Here's the problem, to grow a giant I need to carry it through the summer, which is a lot of work for 75 days. Late March is transplant date and June gets too hot at night and requires vigor in a plant to do this. I'd like to see a southern bred, southern edition of Big Zac OP rather than protected culture more temperate climate ones currently coming out. TimmâÂÂs is quite vigorous, and that is pretty much the best compromise I can get. The newer one you have is probably some excellent breeding stock to backcross to F6 and then make the selections ⦠rather than continue selecting to an evolutionary dead end ⦠there is something great to be said about vigor IMO.

But you know what ⦠There was this guy that âÂÂinventedâ every single determinate tomato ⦠a stoneâÂÂs throw from where I grew up, a generation or two earlier, by just saving the seeds from one weird plant he caught with his eagle eye. The man was a natural and the stuff of legend. I bet when people saw that straggly plant that died at the end of its cycle there were similar comments from the peanut gallery. The proof will be revealed in time and all critics will disappear into the woodwork when a vigorous line comes out that is easy to grow for the masses. JMO

Thanks again.

Marv