Hi Hudson

About Saving Tomato seeds:

There are two ways: ONE: You just get the seeds out of the fruit. Wash it real good until the jell around the seeds comes off. Then just spread them on paper towel and let it dry at room temperature. Then store it in the frig.

TWO: You ferment them:
Squeeze the seeds along with the juice into a cup/glass. Cover it and keep it in a slightly warmer location for several days UNTIL you see white mold on the top. Stir it give it another day or two.

By the principles of fermentation, the bad bacteria and maybe virus are destroyed. (as in fermenting for pickling)

Now, pour all that fermented stuff into a tall glass, stir it. Good seed will settle down right away. Now pour the floating stuff out. Add more water and repeat a few times. You will end up with clear water with some good seeds at the bottom. Those are the seeds you want to save. Drying , storing is the same as method one.

About Heirloom seed source.
There are a lot of internet sources. Tomato Growers should be fine. You can also get into seed swap thread and ask for some seeds. Even if you do not have anything to trade, chances are that someone will give you what you want. Unfortunate I do not have anything worthwhile to offer. I have saved mine from store/farmers Market bought tomatoes, without a name. I just used my guts judgement .

By the principles of fermentation, the bad bacteria and maybe virus are destroyed. (as in fermenting for pickling)

&&&&&&

Actually what fermention does is to lower some of the fungal pathogens that adhere to the outer seed coat. Bacterial and viral pathogens are in the endosperm of the seed so are not affected.

Fementation does not eliminate all fungal pathogens, just lowers it, but infection is quantitative so with a lesser number of pathogens it's less likely that those fungal diseases will be passed on.

I think there are as many waysof saving seed as there are persons doing it, so no sense my going through what I do when fermenting seeds.

There are good instructions at.

Tania's T-base website
Victory Seeds

to name just two.

And places to buy seeds is long indeed.

Tomato Growers is good then you've got:

Tania's website
Sandhill Preservation
Heritage Seeds in CA
Casey's Heirlooms in Canada
Double Helix
J and L Gardens
Tradewinds
Seed Savers Public catalog
Pinetree, for al esser number of seeds which means lower costs, but they don't carry as many tomato heirlooms as the ones above,

...... and many more

A search here for where to buy seeds will bring up many sites, in addition to the ones I mentioned above.

Opinions vary on which ones are best in terms of getting pure seed, I know the owners of the above ones, except for Tradewinds,so feel comfortable listing those others.

No place is perfect since when dealing with OP seed production, X pollinations, etc., can happen, and do,

Hope that helps,

Carolyn

Thanks to both of you! Very helpful information - I will do some reading from your references.

Just a couple of clarifications though in case I don't find it in my reading.
What is the window for saving seeds from the tomato? Does the tomato have to be ripe - can it be too ripe?
The first method to save seeds seems so much easier - just wash them - dry them on a paper towel and store then in the fridge. I guess the main drawback to this method is they have to be refrigerated until planted?

What is the window for saving seeds from the tomato? Does the tomato have to be ripe - can it be too ripe? (Hudson)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Like in breeding mammals, stronger, healthier male and females will have a tendency to produce better off springs, same is true in the plants kingdom.

So, save seeds , PREFERABLY, from the strongest, healthiest plant and the best ripe fruits from it. Planting inferior seeds(of any thing) can result in an inferior plant.

As far as the WINDOW of time, I do not know, But IMO as long as the fruit is of normal appearance and ripe you can save seeds from it. Obviously, there can be seeds of varying degree of viability.. Like, the small thin ones that we can even tell by the naked eye. To get around this you would want to sow more seeds than you need. Those that did not germinate the nature eliminated them. Those that germinate too late or produce weak seedlings, YOU eliminate them.

Regardless of how you process your seeds they do not have to be put in the fridge until those seeds are sowed,

Use any kind of small containers for them, I've used vials, and lots of mine are just stored in normal letter envelopes not sealed.

And stored not in the fridge but just at normal ambient temps. If you live in a climate where humidity is high, it's best not to leave them out but in WY you don't have to worry about long term storage at ambient temps.

If you are saving lotsof seed for some reason, you can freeze them, but NOT until you get the moisture level down of those seeds before freezing them, if you don't do that the seeds will be destroyed,

Window to harvest fruits? Fully ripe ones are best, overripe is OK, any halfripe ones, just let them ripen up.

Seeds are mature when the fruits have color about half way up the fruit.

Carolyn

Thanks for the info!! I should have been saving seeds years ago - but then again - we just built the GH about 5 years ago and last season was the first that we grew heirlooms. I am excited to try CP (again), CC, CG and IS this year - oh, and ML - and now - I am into saving seeds.

This post was edited by Hudson...WY on Tue, Nov 26, 13 at 9:59

As Steve Irwin used to say: What a little BEAUTY!!!!

Cherokee Purple was very early for me this growing season and the taste was divine. It will definitely be invited back in 2014.

Linda

About when to save tomato seeds. Here is a quote from the link below.

The simple answer:
Anytime the tomato fruit develops a gel around the seed.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tomato Seed Saving Conventions

Tom is one of the few folks I know who successfully gets mature seeds out of unripe fruits, but then he has so many crosses going at one time that he needs very few seeds.

And he also uses TSP to extract the seeds and TSP is a very strong oxidative/corrosive agent which is why I never suggest it for home use.

Yes,I've known Tom since 1990 and met him several years ago, when he was still living in Bakersfield, CA and drove down from there to Pasadena to meet me where I was doing a dog and pony show for the then Hortus Nursery in Pasadena.

He's a fast talker and so am I so it was non-stop many hours of discussing tomatoes. ( smile)

I also trialed for him about 22 varieties back in the 90's and one of my faves is still Verde Claro, but these days there are other small ones with a clear epidermis such as Green Doctors Frosted and a coupleof others.

Carolyn

That was amazing Tom.

Thanks for sharing!

Linda

What did I miss Linda.

Is there are Tom posting here in this thread or were you thanking Tom Wagner kind of in absentia? ( smile)

Carolyn

You're right Carolyn,

I ASSumed that Gvozdika was Tom, and didn't realize that s/he was simply posting a link.

Thanks Gvozdika!

Linda

Linda, I am certainly not Tom :) Sorry for confusion. It was a quote from Tom's message. I recently translated it for a Russian tomato forum and thought that people here might find it interesting too. It's good to know that seeds can be saved from 'green' tomatoes in case of emergency.

I wish Tom Wagner would write a book. He seems like a wealth of information and a generous person to share it.

Carolyn, what is your thought on saving seeds from mature-green tomatoes? Do you think it won't work?
I just extracted seeds from a mature-green tomato from a volunteer plant killed by frost (I took the fruit just a night before the frost.) I don't have TSP so I'm fermenting. Tried to squish the seeds out of the gel, they won't quit.

Thank you.

Gvozdika,

I was in that situation last year. I bought a Black Krim plant at a nursery quite late in the season, only because I wanted to harvest its seeds. It took ages to produce any fruit and when it did, I left it on the plant as long as I dared, then I had to pick it because a hard frost was forecast. It was still green when I picked it, and I wasn't sure whether I could save the seed from an unripe tomato or whether it would mature. Amazingly, it did mature (and tasted delicious). I saved the seeds and grew Black Krims this past summer.

Good luck with your seeds. You could always do a germination test with one or two seeds just to see if they are viable.

Linda

:) I bought a Black Krim plant in the middle of this summer. It finally started to set fruit at the end of August. But then we had strong winds (this is the first year we live here and I had no idea what to expect), they damaged the plant. I wish I would leave it where it was but I moved it away from the wind, it caught some fungal disease there and the fruits were too green to save seed from.
I will do the germination test on all of these seeds. It is a volunteer from some grocery bought tomatoes which don't have much taste (but my red wigglers love them, unfortunately, they spit the seeds :) So it is all just for an experiment, to see how it works. Thanks.

I bought some tomato seeds from tradeswindfruit this fall. This is the first time I've bought commercial tomato seeds (I am very new to growing tomatoes :) I sorted out the tiniest seeds and am sowing them now. So far 100% germination, it just takes them a while until they get their first true leaves, then they speed up.

My thoughts on saving seeds from unripe tomatoes?

Negative.

Tom is commercial, he's about the only one I know who does it and he has to use TSP( tri sodium phosphate), which I won't and most others won't either. He almost has to use it since he's doing all those crosses and needs just a few seeds to work with the selections he's working with.

Unripe tomatoes have little juice so are not good for fermentation either.

I realize there are times when person wants to save seeds but for we amateurs, it isn't for a business, so I think it's best to just grow that variety again, or, gulp, buy some seeds. ( smile)

I could make a list of folks who are very knowledgable about tomatoes, Tom isn't the only one, but I'm not going to do that. And yes, I mean those who post at message sites, not those who are in academic positions.

Right now I'm trying very hard to get the folks who do seed production for me to send me the 2013 seeds so I can get my act together for my next seed offer, which is elsewhere, and no, I can't say where b/c GW has been known to ban folks who refer to other message sites. Sigh. This site is commercial, with ads, so they don't want folks going elsewhere. It makes it difficult for me and some others I know who post here b'c a simple link can answer a question which saves lots of time having to type out answers. OK, I'm in my former teacher mode now.LOL

It's a beautiful sunny very cold morning here in upstate NY and the woman who does my grocery shopping for me brought a nice T-day dinner for me on Thursday and my neighbor is bringing up yet another dinner today. It's very difficult, although I used to do it, to cook a complete dinner for myself being in this walker so when asked, I say, bring it on. LOL

Carolyn, who has much to be thankful for this T-day weekend since she came very close to going to the tomato gods and goddesses in the sky last May 30th but a superb team of docs pulled her through, so she could post about tomatoes again.( smile)

Trades Wind Fruit has very few varieties that I am familiar with. What tomato varieties did you decide to plant from Trades Wind? You will have to keep us informed with your progress and results - it will be 2-3 months before we even plant our seeds - so some photos of tomato plants growing through these blizzardy Wyoming winter months will be a welcome site!

Gvozdika,

Maybe the Red Wigglers will grow their own Black Krim tomatoes in their worm bin (LOL). You never know if the passage thorough their little guts might possibly help with the germination!

Sounds as if your Trade Winds seedlings have a great start with the 100% germination. We look forward to hearing more about your plants as they grow.

Linda

Carolyn,

Many of us here are very thankful that you pulled through, and that you are still willing and able to come here and share your great tomato wisdom with us all.

Hugs,
Linda

TALKING SEEDS ..

Some people talk about "Germination Rate". Maybe they intend eventually to plant every seed they sow. But for me it is not the case. If I am going to grow just 2 of a given variety, I will sow 4 or 5 seeds. This way I will have a good safe probable chance to get at least 2 seedlings going. Then if everything fails, I can re do it a week later.

Right now, I am doing some "Test Germinating". I have started with peppers. So far so good. The seeds that I am testing are all taken from store bought fruits. Maybe I will test some tomato seeds in January.

I'm the same as you in sowing seed and wanting maybe two plants I'd sow 3 to 4 of fresh seeds. but for me it does strongly depend on the seed age.

When folks refer to a germination rate or percentage what that means to me is if someone sows 4 seeds and two germinate, that's the germination rate/percentage and is 50%.

Carolyn

Carolyn, thank you for the answer and all the best with your recovery! Your writing is appreciated! I read your posts at another site which I won't mention if it is a problem (and where I was not able to register somehow :) but I've learned a lot from all the good people who posts there. Thank you for your postings and please keep posting!

You are right, the fermentation is going very slowly. I'll try to split the seeds and clean one half with Comet and let another half continue to ferment.
I do understand one of the reasons for extracting seed from an unripe fruit - to get the next generation as quick as possible. Just want to try and see what happens.

Hudson, Black Krim and Cherokee Purple are at the top of my wish list. I hope to get them before this spring.
There are the varieties I received from Tradewinds:
Silvery Fir Tree
Stupice
Tiny Tim
Aunt Ginny's Purple (this one was for a trade but I left a few seeds for myself)
Oregon Spring
Gardener's Delight
Garden Pearl
Black Zebra Cherry (read it does not taste good but will use it for my projects)

I grow in containers, have only a balcony. Right now I have two batches of Tiny Tim three weeks apart. Next weekend I'm going to sow a few seeds of Garden Pearl and Anmore Dewdrop.

About Tradewinds, I saw they have some Tom Wagner's varieties but on Tom's site tomwagnerseeds some of them are described as F4 and there is no mentioning about that on tradewinds.? But they do have great deals :)
Another site to get tomato seeds (for a SASE or donation) is wintersown.org.
Good luck with your tomatoes! And saving tomato seed is kind of fun (I did it even before I decided to grow them :) I'll try to get some pictures of my tomatoes, I found my old phone with a camera but can't find the cord or adapter.

Linda, I think they have an agenda to grow their own tomato patch in there :)

Moving is like a house fire, I'm still looking for many things, our cameras including. At least I know they are somewhere in the boxes. I'd love to post the pictures, this project keeps me going through the winter :)

seysonn, I hate to throw seeds or plants and I never do. If I get extra seedlings (and I do) I try to find a home for them and it is a great way to meet new people :)
About the germination rate, I'm so bad with it that now if I have a success I count it :) Honestly, I have trouble germination marigolds when other people say it is one of the easiest seeds. I have to germinate them in coffee filters!

>>Tom is commercial, he's about the only one I know who does it and he has to use TSP( tri sodium phosphate), which I won't and most others won't either. He almost has to use it since he's doing all those crosses and needs just a few seeds to work with the selections he's working with. Carolyn, I hope you are recovering well! Ungraceful segue: on the topic of being attacked by disease, isn't the purpose of TSP to essentially keep the seeds from rotting before they can develop? Wouldn't that imply if you can get a green tomato to window ripen, you should be able to gather seeds from it, at least as the most convenient home option, but a bacterial bath may worth for sufficiently developed seeds for the rest of us? I found a post from Tom that more or less indicates the real challenge is just separating the viable seed from the useless seed, and keeping it from rotting (or bringing pathogens like TMV).

I'm curious both because I was recently trying to figure out the answer to the question of how soon you can harvest for breeding purposes. By coincidence, I'm growing a Cherokee Purple under lights from a tomato that was given to me by the owner of a local General Store that had been counter ripened. It had JUST barely made first blush at pick though, so that obviously does have some hormonal significance in seed development. I'm curious how quickly I can push through an F1 generation so I can plant out the F2s as soon as possible, cause that sounds like the fun part :)

Tom, uses TSP to get seeds from unripe fruits b'c it's a strong corrosive oxidizing agent, many use it to clean concrete driveways and sidewalks, and tears apart the fleshy parts of a fruit since there isn't any juice inside green fruits, thus releasing the seeds. Always one needs to seperate out the good from bad seeds,just as one has to do so for fermentation or any other method used to produce seeds.

TSP is known to eliminate most on the seed surface that causes TMV ( tobacco mosic virus) but that pathigen is no longer a major problem in the US.

I don't know anyone who would soak seeds in TSP to prevent rotting b'c it would destroy the seeds.

Better to just ripen up some fruits you want to save seeds from, but not on a windowsill, and just ferment them if you want to.

Not on a windowsill since once the fruits are off the vine they dehydrate and the last place you want to put them is in the sun. A cool place on a countertop would be just fine.

Carolyn

I thought this was an interesting - very informative thread - for Cherokee Purple and saving seeds - thanks to some very knowledgeable and experienced GW Members - so I decided bring it back. I didn't take the time to save seeds last fall - it is still down on my list several notches - but I did purchase a grafted Cherokee Purple at a nursery - just to compare with seeds. I tried just this one grafted plant this year - it was OK - but not overly impressed - I think starting from seeds suits us just fine - I couldn't frankly tell much difference between grafted and started from seed with Cherokee Purple.

I am excited to have a couple of almost ripe Cherokee Purples!! They are an awesome tasting tomato and appears to be dependable year to year - our plant is performing about the same as last year - a great tasting tomato!

Hudson you continue to amaze me! I'm growing CP this year and I have fruits growing but of course I'm light years from yours! I'm really looking forward to eating that first one!
Sharon

Very nice Hudson, as usual.

Like Sharon, I am also growing couple of CPs. They have small green fruits. Probably it will be 3 to 4 weeks to see color on them.

I am also growing few other brown/purple/black tomatoes :

--- Japanese Trifele Black (plant)
--- Kumato (from store bought fruit)
--- CP look-alike, from Store Bough tomato. This one might turn out to be a different variety. That is just a surprise element in my garden. Its fruits already showing lots of ribs.

Sharonie - We went from not being able to grow any tomatoes in Wyoming to growing some of the early ripening tomatoes with our GH. After reading so many of the posts on GW - it appears it is much easier to manage a GH in a cold climate than a warm climate? Let us know what you think of CP when they ripen!

Please share some photos of your brown/purple/back tomatoes Seysonn! That's cool that you can find tomato varieties such as those you listed in - I guess - a grocery store! Thats cool that you save and plant the seeds from tomatoes you purchase at the store! We have one grocery store with about two variety of tomatoes - none we would want to plant - comes with the territory. What is your opinion of grafted tomato plants - when compared to seed grown plants?

Good job . Keep on keeping on, Hudson.

The seeds that I saved from store bought were "Heirlooms". They are sold twice the price of regular tomatoes. But "Kumato" is supposed to be hybrid. But I have read many comments that plants grown from F1 tomatoes grow as true as F1. We shall see.

This post was edited by seysonn on Sun, Jul 6, 14 at 8:58

Hey Gary - I think my Cherokee Purple are trying to look like "Brandy Boy" (cause they know I like Brandy Boy) and are lobbying for a spot in the GH next year?!

It may be a good strategy - Better Boy tried it last year and we brought Better Boy back to the GH! - haha

This post was edited by Hudson...WY on Sun, Jul 27, 14 at 12:19

Boy our tastes and growing conditions sure do vary from individual to individual and garden to garden. I hate Cherokee Purple. Probably the worst tasting tomato I have ever eaten. I actually spit out the bite I took. I tried three different ones that were differently matured and they all tasted the same. And they were mushy even when I tried one that I thought was not mature. My favorite is Brandywine.

Hudson, I have seen pictures o CP fruits. Some are roundish, like you grew and pictured last year dan some ribbed/boat shape , like your recent picture. Most of my CPs (still green) are ribbed or boat shape. I also have few cat faced one.

Production wise, first round they put about 6 -8 fruits. Now they are starting more,as second round.

Those CP's do look great, Hudson.
I've always grown Black Krim, but I may switch next year.

This year had a lotta Black Krim but most small, (ping pong ball sized), but nevertherless, delicious, but I like the bigger maters, myself, and, so far, Black Krim has not produced any big ones~~~alto it has in past years.

Gary

Gary,
I agree. Last year I grew BK. The largest fruit was smaller than a baseball. Plus lots of shoulder cracking. It just did not grow well in my garden. That is why I replaced it with CP. So far fruits are large, close to 12 oz. The shape is more like what Hudson has posted. I might try to grow one BLACK FROM TULA next season, just to compare. I love various color tomatoes in a basket. This year I have brown/black, pink, red , yellow, gold , striped and green.

Thanks for that input seysonn.

We "Might" get "two birds with one stone" by planting the CP.

First, bigger and better shaped tomatoes, 2nd, my wife does not like black Krim, (alto I really do), so "maybe" she will like Cherokee Purple~~~~Let ya know Next year

Thanks

Gary

Yolos - I agree with you - my wife argues with me every year when I want to plant a CP - she hates them! I am OK with that - I love them and that leaves more for me - haha. I also love Brandy Wine. Too bad the haters can't enjoy such a great tasting tomato - but then again - I sure don't feel bad that I miss out on the sweet tomatoes - I ate my first yellow - so called sweet tomato - this year - yuk - one must have to develop a taste? - I like the acidic zingy taste!

I like the ribbed/boat shaped fruit - just because it is different - I think. Wished seeds were available that produced ribbed/boat shaped CP tomatoes! CP does produce good sized fruit - our plants have produced 12 oz and larger.

I grew BK and Black from Tula last year, which wasn't the best growing season in general for tomatoes. But I wasn't impressed with BK, but really really liked BFT. I grew more this year but gave away all my seedlings for BFTT by mistake, but CP and indian Stripe are growing really well, but nothing ripe. I'm also growing JBT again. Can't wait to try CP and IS,
Hudson, did you get snow where you are? Saw the news last night and the weather is nuts! We're having a hot and humid summer although the last few days have been rainy, cool, rainy, humid, windy. Almost lost my Red Penna, hard to keep container plants solidly anchored.

Hi Sharonie - Not snow this time - but flash flood warnings in the mountains and foot hills. Where are you located - (area)? We plan to pick Huckleberries in the next few days and hope this weather clears up so we can head to the mountains! Huckleberry pie and Huckleberry Pancakes - ummmmm.........good!!

I am in the Adirondacks and have no problem growing these gorgeous tomato plants!!! I start them by seed and put them in pots. I have quite a few this year. They are easy to grow and do not get mold or blossom end rot. The tomatoes are so tasty and juicy. They are also really purple.

I agree Barb - please share some photos so we can take a peak?

Open pollinated tomato's will all look different when planted in different climates and locations. Weather, moisture, soil, sun all are factors in the fruit development.

I think You have a good point there, Auther.
My CPs are not anything like Hudson's. Mine are not round at all and are irregular, different shapes and sizes too. Also, they have very little or NO green shoulders, no cracks. But regardless of shape, I like the way they taste. I just cut open a big one and got all the seeds out and now fermenting on the counter. All set for the next season.

yes - I get different colors and shapes in the same year - and year to year?? Many are green shoulder'd? They all taste great - so doesn't really matter!?

Thanks Hudson. That is right.
The bottom line is the taste. Shape does not matter much. So I will grow it again and again.

I am in SW Colorado, and my CP do just great. Being at 7,000', we have a very short summer, and can't put anything outside until after June 1st. All my tomatoes begin life in the GH, and I transfer out to the ground later in June. I have tried outside in pots, inside in pots and outside in the ground; the ground tomatoes are always better, and much more disease resistant.

CP is my favorite tomato, but like many, could not get them last year. I did Black Prince instead, and although they are smaller than the CP (about the size of a large Roma), they are prolific. Great flavor, 2nd only to the CP. I am beginning to plant more "purple" tomatoes than any other, the flavor being so superior. But I do mix in the reds (Brandywine, Mortgage Lifter, Big Beef) because the purples are so sweet. CPs are just heavenly aren't they?

Yes they are ! Here is a photo of a ribbed CP - the many faces of CP !!