Thank you all for your input while I dont necessarily agree with some on your opinions (oh well hehe), I just want to make it clear that when we first moved in that apartment the dominant smell was of new carpet and paint so it took awhile for the smoke to seap in. As far as LCW1947 response goes all I have to say is could your response be anymore bitter? Perhaps I should make it clear that I am very friendly towards my neighbors I sweep there sidewalks off whenever I sweep mine I spray for bugs for the neighbors around me and even gave them my number in case they ever need anything. I think it's sad that I have to go out of my way to find a smoke free apartment complex to accomadate my needs. And in fact I do know the man is miserable cause his wife tells me about all their problems and I hear them screaming at each other all the time. Sucks your husband died of cancer even sucks more that your still so liberal about smoking. I pay rent to you know lol I should be able to live my life to without smelling fumes all day. How would you like for me to sit next to you at a beach and break wind all day (I hope you know what I mean by that) wouldn't you be a little bitter towards me? Once again thanks all for you input I really appreciate it.

You are too funny. In fact, if you did sit next to me on the beach and break wind, I do believe I'd move rather then put up with it. Bitter, yes, you could say bitter. I hate that my husband died of cancer. That was definately our problem. We didn't make it someone elses problem.

I agree that you should be able to live your life the way you want to with or with out smelling smoke all or any of the time. We all have to make compromises and it looks like this is one you have to make.

Sounds like your a nice guy i.e. helping your neighbors. What the heck, I help mine. It still doesn't give me licence to tell them how to live their lives or where to live it. and as they say, life's a beach...

And it appears that over and over the responses have said to get this filter or that filter. There are ways to combat your problem. In fact more then one way. Good luck to you in your quest for a smoke free environment.

Thanks LCW1947 for the support on my quest for a smoke free enviroment :) hopefully people will realize there is no benefit from smoking and what a big waste of money is. But as much as I want to get mad at the old man I am more upset with the management. It's not his fault I can smell the smoke but management should at least TRY to fix the problem. This will be never ending debate but all in all the responsibilty falls with management. THanks you guys!

hopefully people will realize there is no benefit from smoking and what a big waste of money is.---

Hawkeye---with all the money you are not wasting why not move out. Quit your whining and accept the fact that this guy is not going to quit and/or change his habit of probably 70+ years because you the "friendly" neighbor asked him to. Smokers are now treated/looked upon as an inferior member of society. I wish you lived above me and had the audacity to comment about my choices of lifestyle.

Thanks for your comment meonlyme. I forgot to mention that when I greeted my smoking neighbor and told him if he ever needed anything that he shouldn't hesitate to ask and he had said the same thing. The old man even plays his tv to lound cause hes doing deaf I don't even mind that, but once he starts affecting the health of my wife and I then I take a stand on it. It brings a smile to my face that smokers are looked down upon. I wonder if you smoke meonlyme? If you do I would hate for you or your loved ones to get cancer from it. But who knows if you do smoke and you get struck with cancer or who knows maybe you even have kids and they get hit with cancer lets see how liberal you are when you see them gasping for air, or drowning in their own fluids. If I lived above you and could smell smoke you could be sure that I would say something :) I don't see how it hurts to ask. If you were at a restauraunt and you saw me going around to peoples tables and coughing in their food I am pretty sure in saying you would be grossed out. And I think it would be pretty dumb to make everyone leave the restaraunt to accomadate the smoker. Oh but god forbid you ask him to go cought outside LOL. Get my drift? I simply cannot wait to read your response meonlyme!!! Take care friend...your "friendly" forum neighbor...hawkeye_

There are more apt buildings that don't allow smoking than ones that do. If you have such an aversion to it, I don't understand why you didn't look for a non-smoking building to begin with. While I don't smoke, I personally think it is ridiculous that you insist he quit smoking inside when he probably chose a smoking building so he CAN smoke inside. I personally cannot stand the smell of perfume/cologne, it makes me ill. However, I would NEVER ask a neighbor/coworker/friend to stop wearing it just because I don't like it, when it is their right to do so. Just my opinion. I would say you should look for a smoke free building next time.

To help, you could buy your downstairs neighbor one of those ionizers? That would reduce the smoke that wafts upstairs to your apartment. You could also buy yourself one to keep in your bathroom.

And keep the fan on most of the time :)

I believe strongly in the Ionic Breeze. I bought my used off of ebay, and it has done wonders :0 Just an idea!

Hawkeye-

Fantastic for you that you and he agreed to help each other out if needed. I am glad you are putting your good manners to use. He is a lucky 'old man' that you do not mind him playing his t.v. loudly.

Yes I am a smoker. I am aware of every harmful aspect of smoking. It is my choice to make. Family members have been affected by smoking but it was again a choice they made. I am not ignorant, and would not smoke if I chose to have children and I do not smoke around children. In fact I do respect nonsmokers. Nonsmokers that respect me that is. I would never expect a resturant to clear out to accomodate a smoker...but I guess you were trying to entice me into an arguement over that as well. Do you go up to smokers in public that are not bothering you and begin to lecture them or voice your opinion?

You seem very concerned with your wife's health, so instead of going on this self righteous attack on smokers get yourself a house or get into a smoke free apartment building where you will be guaranteed that she will not be inhaling the smoke. It appears you are choosing to stay and fight a battle you are going to lose and putting your 'wife's' health in 'grave danger'.

How do you feel about alcohol? Are you less combative when it comes to that?

Well meonlyme the thing is that if I could afford to live in a house....I WOULDN'T BE IN AN APARTMENT lol. It's quite funny that you would stop smoking around your kids...I thought it was your right to smoke why should you have to stop smoking around your kids? Its' their choice to hang around you right? They are aware of the consequences. It's america remember you shouldn't have to accomodate to anyones needs right? And as far as my thoughts on alcohol goes it, at least the fumes don't cause cancer and we forbid people to drive under the influence of it. Also a little tidbit of information drunk driving kills 17,000 people a year and second hand smoke kills 40,000. Geez, talk about looking for an argument lol! Well, I thank you all for your opinions both kind and bitter. Till next time....your friendly forum neighbor hawkeye_!

Hawkeye

Why do you find it funny that I would stop smoking around my kids, if I had any? I choose to smoke. An infant is not capable of making such a decision. Like I had said I am not disrespectful to non-smokers.

What bothers me is you came on here acting as though you were so concerned about your wife's health and angry that a man that lives below you smokes. I really think you were bored and wanted to get a heated thread going.

Point proven by one of your quotes **hopefully people will realize there is no benefit from smoking and what a big waste of money is.**

**I think it's sad that I have to go out of my way to find a smoke free apartment complex to accomadate my needs.**

this was one of your statements in one post but then here is another from the next one

**And I think it would be pretty dumb to make everyone leave the restaraunt to accomadate the smoker.**

What you want is the building management or the old man to accomodate you and yet you are essentially the smoker in the restuarant. I am sure you don't see how hypocritical you are but usually close minded people can't.

I understand that people have very closed minds and see only their side to a controversial issue. Unlike you I am open minded I see both sides. I am not even saying I am right but, I unlike you am not imposing my opinion on people not asking for it.

Actually I was not looking for an arguement about alcohol so much as I was trying to see where you were coming from. I was not surprised at all with your response.

Hopefully by now you are out of the apartment and into a smokefree building. Hey and if you save your money which probably isn't difficult since you aren't a smoker you can afford a house where you can put a bubble like structure around it and you won't ever have to deal with smokers again.

So farewell Hawkeye...Judging from your last post I am guessing you won't be coming back. And as "friendly" as you think you are, you come off as miserable as the "old man" you have been complaining about.

meonlyme

hawkeye
sounds like you are doing all the neighborly things to prevent the smell from entering your apartment. i wish there was a definitive answer. i get my neighbors cooking smell, which are generally nice but sometimes it smells like tey are boiling month old road kill. i dont eat meat so when they cook it it kida makes me nauseous.

i swear by hepa filter air purifiers. they really do make a remarkable difference in cleaning the air, removing smoke and odors and removing dust and allergens from the air. that and sealing up any openings between the 2 apartments that might exis. might be a good easy choice if moving is not an option
good luck

Well meonlyme I think it's funny as well that you consider me close minded. I didn't come on the board to make a heated thread cause, I unfortunately don't have the luxory of sitting at home all day collecting my dead smoking spouse's life insurance getting angry at people just for having a different opinion about smoking. The only thing I get mad at is when they actually smoke around me, but how dare you get mad at me for not liking it lol. Well good bye gardenweb.com I thank you all for your opinions and good luck meonlyme (nice name by the way I wonder if that imply's your outlook on life lol) take care...your "friendly" forum neighbor....hawkeye_

Oh one more thing, I love how you say that you're not close minded, show me anywhere in your responses that you remotely admit to seeing my side on smoking. Also, what gave you idea that I was bored and decided to make a heated thread? lol I asked for suggestions on what I could do, not "hey guys what are you opinions on smokers rights". I was wondering how to fix the solutions i.e. air purifiers, etc. I think you were the one who were bored and wanted to turn it into a debate, hence you coming off so strong lol. Oh well, I forgot to put this in my previous response (must be all the smoke frying my brain cells :>) I'll miss you meonlyme! Take care and the comment I made about your dead spouse was way outta line and I do apologize for that.

Hawkeye-

I think if you read my posts you would have seen that I said I am aware of the consequences of smoking. I understand the health risks involved. I do respect non-smokers and I do support the laws they have in my area where we can not smoke in resturants, bars, public areas, school property. I do not mind that I have to go outside and smoke when at work. I do not smoke around children.

I have a problem though with nonsmokers infringing on private areas such as cars, living spaces, and while outside in open air.

You have a problem, you don't smoke and it makes you mad when people smoke around you. You have a better chance in finding a place to live that suits your needs moreover the old man beneath you. It is not managements problem, it is yours. I think it is more about control and getting a debate then it is your wife's health.

Yes your response about my alleged dead spouse was completely uncalled for especially when so many people on here were wishing your wife well.

I see both sides meaning I know what health problems first hand and second hand smoke cause to human beings and pets. Yes it is horrible, but not illegal. If I were concerned as much as you say you are I would not chance it with air purifiers and sprays to disguise the odors I would remove myself from the environment completely.

I again only have a problem when I am minding my own business and some fanatic comes out of nowhere with comments, opinions, and issues that were uninvited. Exactly what you did to that old man. As friendly as you claim you were you overstepped a line.

I have the luxury of owning my own home and do not have to deal with people like that while not in public thankfully.

Me

Just a though... if you only smell the smoke in your bathroom (I think that is what you said) is it possible there is something wrong with the vent stack that ventilates the bathrooms in your line? I know that I had a problem with smelling exhaust fumes in my apartment (which was odd since I live on the 20th floor), and the issue was that the extractor fan on the roof had stopped working, so odors could mingle in the vent stack, as opposed to being pulled up the stack.

Here in NYC, there is a building code about the minimum cfm (I believe it is 30cfm) that must move up the vent stack, so another angle might be to check with your local building department, and see if there is a such a regulation, and then verify whether the vent in your current bathroom meets this standard.

One final though, if there are properly functioning vent stacks, is it possible that your apartment is a net "consumer" of air - meaning that the vent stacks in your apartment make the pressure lower in your unit than the surrounding units. In this case, your unit would draw air in through the multitude of cracks and other little paths between units - enabling you to smell the smoke. The solution in this case is to crack a number of windows so that your unit is most likely to consume air from outside, as opposed to inside your building.

Sorry for the long response, I have a smoker next store, and the street level of my building has a supermarket in it, so smells can be a problem - when looked at closely, they are almost always solvable.

Smokers suck!

I just read this, and was very surprised to see how crabby SOME people (you know who you are) are on this forum. The suggestions were nice, but even if you disagree with the guy having the nerve to ask his neighbor not to smoke, you don't have make personal attacks or be rude about it. I think there was plenty of antagonism to go around for any one person to say "he started it."

For those who want to argue about smoker's rights....

Here is a link that might be useful: try this link

People who smoke deserve the death they get.

It cannot be directly compared to drinking alcohol. The mechanism is different. Non-smoking bystanders can't close their noses or hold their breath at will for the duration to avoid the odors and hazard. Bit of alcoholic beverages don't jump up out of the container by their own accord and crawl down bystanders' throats.

When my husband and I got married 12 years ago, we lived in a newly built apartment. The 70+ yr. old lady below us was an indoor smoker. I believe what Hawkeye is saying--we could smell her cig. smoke in the bathroom, predominantly. Especially if you opened the vanity-must've come in around pipes. We never complained about it--we were young, happy, knew we'd prob. be out of apartment life in a couple years (we were) and the lady was sweet. We also suspected she might be a tad lonely. The benefit (no slight smoke smell) wouldn't have been worth the cost, in effect. Someday we may end up living in an apartment again. (This is NOT dissing people who live in apts.--I know on the coasts it's sometimes only choice--where we are, you mostly see young, old or divorcees in apartments--space considerations-houses are cheaper and plentiful.) ANYhoo, when/if that day comes, I'll feel bummed when young, happy, pretty (young=pretty the older you get-lol) people come to ask me to not do something. Life's too short-don't sweat the small stuff.

I am not sure why it is okay for people on this website to vent and ask for help on issues like neighbors having noisy sex, animal problems, and loud noises, but NOT about a guy who doesn't want HIS home to be invaded by someone else's life decision, which in this case, could affect his and his wife's health. How about some compromise, like he tried to do.

Maybe those of you who have to be so nasty should just answer the posts that you could be helpful to instead of making someone feel bad for their requests for help.

That said, Hawkeye, I have somewhat of the same problem that you do, except that I wish my neighbors would smoke in their own home. They both sit on their patio at all hours and smoke cigarette after cigarette. God forbid THEIR home smell like smoke. I have the option of keeping my windows open (which I prefer) or closing them and turning on the a/c, which is hard since I am on a strict budget and cannot afford this, except on the hottest days. Yes, I should have thought about smoking, although when you do not smoke, nor know very many (none in fact) that smoke, it is not out of the realm of possibilities that I did not think to ask about this. Especially since I live in more of a condominium type setting with all apartments having separate entrances, garages, patios etc. My bad luck is that I moved into the one place where my patio and most of the windows in my place face my smoking neighbors patio. I think that in my case, I certainly can expect them to smoke in their own home, since they have decided to ruin their own health.
I do know, Hawkeye, that you are probably in the same position I am, in that you would have bought a house if you could have afforded one in the first place, so that "offer of help" was useless. The only helpful suggestion so far was to invest in an air purifier. I think that is what I will be doing, although that will get expensive also, especially for a quality one. Moving is also a silly idea. Have you heard of "leases"? I know that I signed a year lease and cannot get out of it. My neighbors are really nice and I don't want to have problems with them, so I am going to deal with this on my own, however I can't help hoping that they move before I am able to.
Hawkeye, I know I did not offer you anything new. I just felt that I had to let you know that there is at least someone (along with a few other helpful posters) that do understand and sympathize.

I will not be coming back to this website since I was looking for one that would be supportive to other's issues, and did not find that here. Hawkeye, I am sure there are others out there who can offer you much more constructive answers. Good luck!!!

It's funny... I was reading through some of the posts on other forums on the "That Home Site" site, and one in particular was about a fence dispute between two neighbors in a residential neighborhood. All the while I kept thinking, "Ha! These two should be forced to live in some of the apartments I've lived in recently. Then they would see how good they've actually got it." The worst thing about apartment living is that you can easily wind up living 5" away from someone you wouldn't even want to live in the same city with. And it can change for better or worse at any time. It's "apartment roulette".

Apartment designers and builders across the country are saving thousands of dollars not incorporating soundproof walls and floors in their structures, or addressing infiltration issues, and then generating millions of dollars' worth of stress and aggravation for the families that will end up living in them. I mean, just take a look at the titles of the posts in this forum. It seems that apartments are mostly populated by people with no regard for how their actions impact on others' lives, and the people who put up with it because they fear confrontation. It's a recipe for a stressful life.

Fortunately, I'm in the process of buying a house, and will be moving out of this apartment soon. But I know how Hawkeye feels. The woman who lives below me has been a very nice tennent, but one weekend a son of hers came to visit who smokes cigars. Over the course of several days, the stench began seeping into my apartment. I couldn't figure out where it was coming from! Even though he was only there for one day, the odor fouled my breathing air for over a month. By the time I'd go to bed at night my throat would and sinuses would be raw. Cigar smoke is one of the most virulent and long-lasting odors known to man. People who smoke become de-sensitized to the stench early on, as their olfactory senses are essentially crippled. It's no doubt difficult for them to understand why non-smokers are so bothered by it, and it is no wonder they feel put out. They've been shooed out of almost every public venue, and they feel (and they are right) that their last "haven" is their own residence.

Sad to say, but beyond what has been suggested here, there is not much else a peson can do besides moving.

Paula

I had a similar problem, the guy below me smoked on his balcony day and night. I could not get any fresh air in the apartment because the smoke blew directly up the deck and into my unit instantly - by the time I smelled it, it was too late to shut the sliding glass door (my only source for ventilation apart from a bedroom window.) So I just had to keep the door and window shut all the time, or else cough and have my eyes water and get sick to my stomach in my own home (not to mention worry about the health effects of inhaling toxic fumes on such a regular basis.) My air conditioning bills were sky high, and I couldn't enjoy the spring breezes, nor get fresh air. When he left, it was like I could return to living normally again. The right to breathe is a basic one.

Why do people who design apartments not do a good job? Think of all the misery their poor designs cause.

Soundproofing, for instance, would solve so many problems - just do a google search for noisy neighbors and the amount of anguish people are needlessly going through on a daily basis boggles the mind. How about concrete floors and firewalls, with good insulation? Is that asking for the moon? Not to have to hear pounding bass day and night? And couldn't balconies be designed to prevent smoke from adjacent units from getting in? I tried everything to stop the cigaratte smoke from coming in, even bought $150 worth of rubber rugs (and had to lift them up and drain them every time it rained) and put fans out on the deck - nothing stopped the toxic fumes from coming straight into my unit, so instead, I had to do without fresh air to breathe.

I'd gladly pay a good deal more each month to have a soundproofed apartment. I'd also pay more to have a smoke free or better designed/insulated apartment. But despite a long, hard search, I have found neither.

Just wanted to add this to our wish list:

Better floorplans - why don't the designers put kitchens and bathrooms and closets along the common walls?

They do do that some times, Agnes. The place I'm in now has closets, laundry & utility alcoves, kitchen and bathroom along the common wall. And it's even a soundproofed wall. Then they go and make the wall adjoining the stairwell a regular thin wall. You can hear absolutely everyone's noisy comings and goings. And the staircase is smack against the wall of my living room, (the only decent wall for a couch).

But still, the worst problem is infiltration. The apartments all have gas forced-air heat, and it's like all the apartments are connected by smell tunnels to the one below or above. The bath exhaust fans are another smell conduit. My downstairs neighbor can't even f*rt without my knowing, let alone burn the roast or smoke a cigar.

I guess all this is why houses were invented.

Paula

Holy Cr**p, Hawkeye, come back!!!
I have been KICKED OFF of websites for expressing less incendiary/angry/sarcastic opinions than ones that have been exhibited in this post -- and I never directly attacked ANYONE during my supposedly innapropriate 'rages!'
My point? Someone here articulated it best when they said tenants have the God-given right to go on and on about noise pollution (especially a concern in apartment scenarios) and, to a lesser extent, physical boundaries (which involves such outrages as multiple cars in the yard and a garages painted atrocious colors) involving fence lines and property boundaries...
Every possible solution to your quandary has been imparted here, so I won't beat that horse, nor the "I'm not a smoker, but I understand their plight/rights (I work in a bar, so don't even bother)" but do people need to be so vicious that it becomes a name-calling episode about smokers vs. non-smokers????
What bunch of meanies drove hawkeye to say goodbye to gardenweb?? what did he do?????!!!

The issue of smoking is a touchy one. Smokers feel that this is an issue of personal freedom. Yes, smoking in one's own home should be a right, but it gets complicated when smoking can cause health consequences for other people.

Second-hand smoke has been proven to be almost as deadly as first-hand smoke.

The guy's wife, with a past history of cancer, more than likely has a compromised immune system. To say the least, the apartment smoke is not doing her immune system any favors.

Buildings with second-hand smoke are "sick buildings." I guess many, many buildings are essentially "sick buidings." A large percentage of office buildings are designed with poor ventilation systems, and have you personally seen a tall office buiding with the windows open??? I sure haven't. The windows cannot be opened--period.

The court system will probably decide this issue. If someone's way of life ( smoking ) is reducing your life span, there IS a problem.

If I was working in a "sick building" ( I have read where up to 30% of buildings are classified as being "sick" ) with a faulty ventilation system breathing the same air day-in-and-day-out, I think I would be complaining to someone. Is renting an apartment or owning a condo similar?? I think so. A man living in his own castle should be able to do what he wants to do, as long as it isn't infringing on someone else's rights.

Maybe smokers should have the option of renting in "smoking allowed apartments."

We all have the right to breathe clean air. If some guy enjoys sticking his nose in a sewer, let him. I don't want to stick my nose in a sewer, and why should I be forced to breathe second-hand smoke.

Contractors and builders don't have much interest in sound-proofing, and ventilation systems. Their main motive is profit, and if it costs an extra dollar here, and an extra dollar there---they won't do it. Maybe if they were forced to live in their own buildings, they might pay a liitle more attention.

Hello all I just wanted to return to say that I heard something on the radio along the lines of our local government was making it illegal to smoke in apartments (so I'm assuming a local ordinance). I'll do some research on it to find out exactly what they're doing. Then she went on to say that a poll of 602 apartments residents were asked if it should be illegal and 69 percent said yes (I will try to find that poll as well). So thank you you very much for your kind opinions and sticking up for me :) I'll be back later with more information.

That's very interesting, Hawkeye. As much as I don't care for the smell of tobacco smoke, a law like that sounds rather draconian to me. I think that individual apartment managers should have the right to decide the matter for their own properties. It would be very much in their financial interest to designate certain buildings or units as smoking or non-smoking, and they could set the ratio according to the desires of the tennants.

Paula

Good idea Paula about designating buildings for smoking, but I feel as though management doesn't care about the tenants to that extent. They much rather get them to sign a lease for a year and once that's done they really don't have to do anything else (that's the attitude I got from my management). I just found out recently that there were 3 "smoke free" apartment buildings. However, they are not doing immediate move-ins as of right now. Also, these buildings cost a little bit more but I'm so willing to pay what I can possibly afford to live in a safe and healthy enviroment. I'm still looking for an article that relates to what I heard on the radio earlier. One more note, I really can't tell you guys how much I appreciate your good/nice attitudes towards this touchy issue, regardless of whether you agree with me or not. As you can tell I ran into some people who had some heated words for me lol. I'll be back later with more info like stated before.

You live in California, right? Land of the universal smoke-free restaurant?...
Citizens in municipalities around the country have followed Ca's lead, and have sued counties for the right to universalize smoke-free restaurants and other public venues...
Following suit? Smoke-free workplaces......
It stands to reason that the next 'public venue' to be legislated as smoke-free could be residential 'collectives' (apts, condos), but that this designation (given aforementioned opinions about private vs. public liberties) remain elective.
It seems as if there is enough real estate in the world to embrace both groups, and that either designation could be used as a marketing tool for landlords.......
BTW, welcome back, hawk; I'm glad you kept reading...

People who smoke carry the stench of old cigarettes with them on their person all day. They probably are fastidious as far as showering, deodorant, clean clothes etc. but you can smell them as you pass them wherever they go. They foul the air and the environment and one cannot even go through the entranceway of any store without smelling the disgusting odor they leave when they put out their cigarettes near the entrance. Cigarette smokers know how vile they are and are so ashamed of themselves that they get defensive, otherwise they would not be able to live with themselves.

Wow--in re: shelly2's post-that is just so hateful, I am stunned. I know many smokers, have friends who smoke and yes, it's stinky but I don't find them disgusting--I find them addicted. It's not the worst thing someone could do. No-I don't smoke, but I am addicted to caffeine/coffee. I'm not trying to be provocative. I just wonder what is behind such vitriol.

Well, I'm not quite as vitriolic as Shelly, but as an explanation...your coffee drinking likely in no way affects the people around you. As someone who is horrendously allergic to cigarette smoke, I can't bear to be around someone who has been smoking recently -- it literally makes me sick.

While I can understand that it's an addiction...a lot of people have managed to kick it. I don't have a lot of patience with people anymore who whine that they've tried to stop, but "I'm addicted!" If you really wanted to kick the habit, then you'd do the patch, the gum, whatever. If it doesn't work the first time, then keep trying. I can list at least 20 people close to me (friends, family) that have stopped smoking -- was it easy? No. But they managed to do it. And are substantially happier now that they've done it.

If you don't give a crap about being addicted and don't want to stop, then more power to you...but I retain the right to think you're a disgusting person, just as I would someone who wallows in feces.

Wow I only looked in here to see what was happening.

I'm sympathetic to the original poster but they should have checked more carefully before moving in just like any sensible person tries to scope out the location so that the apparent quiet street at night isn't the neighborhood rat run during rush hours. Do they have any habits that annoy the old guy? Playing music he can hear but doesn't like? At his age you can't expect him to move - you can.

I don't think rivkadr can understand addiction. Nicotine addiction is powerful. If he/she is honest then there must be 80 people to the 20 who have tried to stop but can't. Cigarette makers have deliberately increased nicotine to help make cigarettes more addictive.

Now I've never smoked and hate the smell of smokers clothes and hair but I do know many, many people that try to stop and can't. It is not that easy as it is a physical addiction

Oh and for me smoking is nowhere near as offensive as spitting or self-righteous religious fanatics telling me that being homosexual, favoring abortion or drinking is not acceptable and somehow diminishes me.

Hey bearsrock2! Well here's the the thing I lived near these apartment complexes before we moved in, so I know it was a nice quiet place to live. And as far as being a "sensible" person goes, I pretty much consider myself that, but it's not like I could ask to live there for a couple of weeks and wait for the new paint and carpet smell to go away so I could see if I could smell smoke lol. As far as moving out goes this is pretty much the only place we can afford to live. Also I really think it makes no difference how old you are inconsiderate is inconsiderate. If I was doing jumping jacks in my apartment and he could hear it don't you think he has a right to at least ask me to possibly do that outside...is that being inconsiderate (infringing on my right to do jumping jacks simply because its keeping him up at night....how dare he! lol) at least my jumping jacks don't cause cancer ;) as far as any bad habits go I don't see how any of mine can affect him considering I don't listen to music in the house and when I do I'm on my computer and I wear headphones (I have to when the wife is watching television). I'm not heavy at all so I don't think he can hear me walk (I think he can barely hear at all because he has the tv up so loud I can hear it at night....which by the way I don't mind that at all) and I don't do jumping jacks either. Oh by the way I havn't been smelling smoke lately so that's great news!!!

Hawkeye I think the key thing in your first post was that the old guy was friendly and at least prepared to try which is different from the majority of apartment dwellers bad experiences. It is obvious you are considerate in your behaviour. However smokers in my experience never understand the issues with the smell till they quit. I've known plenty of women who would die if they could smell their expensive clothes...

Maybe he does not realise how bad it is in your apartment? I would have never thought it would be an issue in a separate apartment and I guess few would. Maybe he took heed of your comments and is accommodating you? Perhaps you should say you no longer smell the smoke and he might tell you he's stopped.

I once lived in an apartment below an elderly women who's tv was really loud from 5 am to 11pm so i understand that comment but we used to get our own back playing the piano at 2am on a Sunday morning!

How about this.. we own a ski condo in New York and some members of the HOA recently tried to make it against the rules to smoke in the units!! I could not believe it, something my husband paid big money for to go away , relax and smoke an occasional cigar... he owns the place for heaven's sake!!

For the majority of non-smokers, who have an aversion to cigarette and cigar smoke, smoking is simply not on our radar screen. None of my friends smoke, or family; so my exposure to smokers has been quite limited.

Most employers do not allow smoking at the office; so it is quite an unexpected dose of unwelcomeness when our next-door apartment or condo neighbor smokes. As I have mentioned before, smoke is hard to contain within an apartment building or condominium. It easily seeps through cracks, walls and ventilations systems.

One really has no way of knowing whether air purifiers work 100% of the time, and 100% is the only optimal percentage level. Even a 10% malfunction rate is not acceptable.

Not only is smoking a nail in the coffin of the smoker, the odor is extremely offensive. If I had a choice between (1) smelling smoke or, (2) radon gas, I'd gladly inhale radon gas. It's equally as deadly, but at least it's odorless.

In 2005, the apartment vacancy rates are in the double digits in many cities, so screening potential tennants as to their substance-abuse addictions is not in their best interest, from a profit sheet standpoint.

In addition, smoking is an extreme fire hazard. Do you think apartment managers are passing the increased insurance costs along to their tennants???? Of course they are. Non-smokers are paying THROUGH THEIR NOSES for other people's bad habits.

My next-door condo neighbor died of lung cancer. I am quite convinced that miniscule traces of her smoke still came through the wall, and the ventilation systems. I endured the smoke for eight long years, and I am sure my health will eventually be compromised to some degree--- long-term. Smelling second-hand smoke is almost as deadly as smoking itself.

I too am amazed that so much more sympathy is shown for residents who have to deal with neighbors who exhibit far far less hazardous things like heavy shoes, music, etc.

There are quite a few smokers who think nothing of throwing butts *whereever*. Take a look at roads and byways and places where folks gather; some are littered by many cigarette butts. There have been so many times when I've been sitting behind a car only to see someone sully the area by carelessly throwing out a cigarette butt. Arrgh. Why don't they put their butts in their ash trays?

One time a fasidious friend of ours did that right on our lawn! He picked it up when we mentioned something, but it amazes me that so many do that sort of thing without thinking. I can understand how folks could enjoy the smoking habit but will never grok the tendency for some to litter. I hope your neighbor isn't like that in any case. Good luck hawkeye.

cocooner

The guy who smokes is a long term addict, you have next to zero chance of getting him to stop or alter his behaviour in any way that delays his fix, but the consequences of trying to might make everyone unhappy. Addiction turns otherwise nice people into jerks when something gets in the way of their addiction.

I know that's not particularly useful, but I felt I had to say it because of the way the issue has been framed as a matter of individual rights and freedom of action. Addiction complicates matters and makes for no easy solution. An addicted person will be far more unhelpful in matters concerning their addiction than about any other matter. They will often make promises such as giving up or changing the way they indulge in their addiction that they will end up inevitably breaking, like Cookie monster trying not to eat a cookie. Addiction stops people upholding the standards of behaviour they would otherwise keep. In the end, your health versus the need to feed his addiction, your health will always come a poor second.

So people can rant about their right to smoke, but it needs mentioning loud and clear that exercising that right and being addicted will go a long way to turning anyone into an unpleasant person. And yes, I do think this of smokers in general, as I walk past a pack of smokers taking their smoke break outside an office building one of the thoughts that inevitably passes through my mind is "jerks". It is their right to smoke, it is my right to think smoking diminishes their ability to act as decent human beings in anything connected to feeding their habit.

I recommend you let the issue drop, try to minimise the smoke problem as much as you can through your own efforts and possibly seek smokefree accomodation as soon as practicable. You are dealing with someone who on this one issue sadly may not have as much freedom to act as he would wish to have.

He can do what he wants - its his "house". I'm sorry but I don't think there is anything you can do. He will *not* stop because you don't like it. But I do think:

1. He dies of smoking related problems - problem solved
2. You move out - problem solved

I've lived in apartments before and always had issues - its part of the lifestyle of sharing common ground with others. Smoking was one of them. I lived upstairs and always smelled the smoke coming from below because, it rises. Always heard people having sex too and loud music. Blah, blah, blah. If it bothers you that much, move out.

No body have addressed the legal issues here. Apt. Mgr must declare to the new tenants that the building they are moving to is a smoking building. What legal recourse new tenants have if thats not been declared???

"No body have addressed the legal issues here. Apt. Mgr must declare to the new tenants that the building they are moving to is a smoking building. What legal recourse new tenants have if thats not been declared???
"

none.. smoking is legal.

I'm being plagued by this problem now. It's smokers' rights to smoke. However, it is NOT their right to afflict others. In fact, most leases have clauses preventing nuisances and things that inhibit other neighbors' quiet enjoyment. I think cigarette smoke qualifies. A couple in Boston was recently evicted for affecting their neighbors with their incessant cigarette smoke. I understand the desire to keep the peace, though...I don't want to anger my neighbors, but I don't want to inhale noxious gases all evening every evening either. This apartment wasn't like that when I looked at it. Frankly, it's damaging my property, and is endangering my health...

People are still clueless about smoking. They are free to smoke, sure -- and keep it to themselves, just as people with subwoofers should find a way to have their fun without making me part of it against my will.

People are barbarians...assaulting others and screaming about THEIR rights! They may tell themselves because it doesn't harm them, it doesn't harm others. I guess I am the judge of what goes into my body and so on. If their noise and pollution invade my space, my choice has been taken away. If they want to smoke or listen to loud sound waves, they must by moral common sense be the ones responsible for keeping their business to themselves.

Solutions will be gradual, if at all. Good luck with it.

My dear Hawkeye,

Since you live in CA, and an apartment, maybe you live in one of the cities such as LA or Santa Barbara. Cigarette smoke is not your enemey like smog is. Get an education.

I live in a home so well-built you have to go outside to use your cell. So seal up the leaks if that smoke is your problem. If smell is, see ZeroOdorStore.com which will fix you right up. Remember, as you get rid of each smell, you become aware of another one. Soon you, too, will be a miserable old man trying to be friendly.

You might call down to see just what is happening when you smell it. Is he cooking an old tire? Perhaps you don't recognize what you're smelling if you spend your time away from ciigarette smoke. Or do you just specialize?

theoracle,

Are you a smoker?