It seems pretty clear that it's time to find another designer.

What is your relationship with the current one? Who is he working for, you or the builder? How much has his work cost you so far? Do you have a written contract? Is there anything about the design drawings that you wish to keep?

Renovator8

The builder has a great reputation in the area and has been in business for many years. It was started by the current owner's father. The architect has a long history with the company and customers are encouraged to work with him, but are free to pick their own architect. So the architect is working independently, but because of the long relationship between the builder and architect, we sometimes wonder exactly who the architect is working for. We went with the architect partly because of his history with the builder, but also because he knows the development and has designed all the existing homes there.

We signed a contract with him for preliminary and final plans. We paid him for the preliminary plans, $1100, and can walk away now without owing him more money.

For the most part we love the floor plan. But when estimates came in, we realized the cost would be much higher than expected. The builder had given us an estimate, not on our house, but on a similar house, 2500 sq ft ranch, in the development. The architect never estimated cost. The builder was also surprised by the cost and felt the roof line was the main cause. So he sat down with the architect to come up with ways to simplify the footprint which resulted in cutting off 1-4 feet from most rooms. In some cases that was fine, but in others, it was not. The changes were presented to us by the architect who was annoyed that we did not agree with everything.

I believe I said earlier we are only getting hand drawn plans that are not always accurate on huge pieces of paper and after seeing what others on here are given, I feel it is time to find another architect, but don't really know if we expect too much. Even though the estimated price is higher than expected, we can still afford it, but if someone can save us money, that would be great.

I've been designing houses and larger structure for more than 40 years. I have often been annoyed or at least frustrated by a client but I can assure you that I have never let one know that and have considered their input just part of the design problem for which I was paid to solve.

Apparently your architect lacks a professional attitude because of lack of exposure to professional training and/or working environments or he has a personality flaw. I would check to see if he is actually registered in your state; there are no unregistered architects.

Perhaps he has become spoiled by having his clients handed to him by the builder instead of earning them by word of mouth from satisfied clients. Another possibility is that he is weary of making a meager living designing a house every week; that I could understand.

I also understand how difficult it is to revise hand-drawn drawings. The fact that he doesn't offer CAD drawings makes me suspect he isn't very serious about offering his clients professional services; these days I couldn't get away with designing a house without a computer drawn perspective nor would I want to. His only excuse would be that he had been doing something else for the last 20 years.

Finding a good architect can be difficult. Where is your project located?

I don't work with people, who refuse to do what I want, if it's possible and within the budget. It the problems were structural, or not up to code, that would be one thing. It sounds like this architect want 'his' vision to be the final result...not yours.

There are some wonderful people out there, who will want to help you create YOUR dream home, not what they think you should live in. Keep looking and remember, this is going to be a long project and you want someone that is easy to work with, talented and doesn't blame everyone else, when things go wrong. Something always does and you need a contractor and architect that can work together...not point fingers at each other!

Keep looking and best of luck with your project :)

If in an alternative universe I'm a multi-billionaire and have a contract with Robert A M Stern to whip me up a 6,000 sf beach house in the Hamptons, I'm keeping my mouth shut.

I take it your prima donna taint so qualified.

Otherwise, even a preliminary plan would have cost you a lot more. Last year, I paid $1,337 for a few quick sketches. What I get for being in a ridiculously booming real estate market here.

I hope you get a new architect. You are spending far too much money and time to build a custom home to let someone ignore your ideas. If he has valid reasons for making a suggestion or change (such as improving traffic patterns or natural light), then he should explain these to you.

Once you have a design, I'd highly recommend posting the floor plan on the kitchens forum. It seems that not many (or at least not all) architects have a background in good kitchen design, and there are some great layout gurus on the kitchens forum.

In the meantime, I hope that people with experience working with architects can help you come up with a list of questions to ask to help find one that's a good fit for you. Might be worth a new post with the title something like "Questions to ask when interviewing architects"

Good luck!

We're paying a whole lot more than that, but we say something once and it's in the next sketches.
I say dump him.

$1100 is bottom of the barrel pricing. I'd expect a fee at least 10x that amount---and the service to go with it. Perhaps he feels he is being paid minimum wage and thus needn't give anything but minimum wage service.

Time to go elsewhere. I'd I'd really have to question a builder that would send me to this guy. Either the builder is clueless, which is never good, or the architect is some type of family member fallen on hard times.

I think the $1,100 fee was for preliminary design but that wouldn't cover many revisions if the guy doesn't have a CAD system so I can see a possible source of stress.

If he's younger than 60, he should have been taught CAD in architecture school and since anyone that young couldn't have gotten an architect's license without a graduate degree I suspect he is not an architect. To be fair, it's possible he's a very old architect which might account for his cranky attitude.

We recently paid over $4,000 for construction plans for our hobby kennel. I gave the architect the information on the inside kennel runs 370.75" - 8 runs requiring 7 side panels - wall to wall. He took the information and when we got the final plans I checked the dimensions (not easy - the way he had it drawn) - he was a 10" short. We spoke to him about it and he realized his mistake - he fixed it, but did not fix the foundations plan correctly. He gave us good advise about the design, but I would not use him again - to careless for me.

Just curious about the precise 370.75" length requirement for the inside of a dog run and why it is stated in inches instead of the US architectural design convention of feet and inches (30'-10 3/4").

Do the dogs run into the end of the run?

Dimension expressed by the manufacturer
I gave the Architect a diagram from the manufacturer showing.
door panels: 45" x 8 = 360"
side panels: 1.25" x 7 = 8.75"
+ 2" allow for spacers = 2"
total = 370.75"
The Architect went back to the manufacturer and only accounted for the 8 door panels ignored the side panels and the spacers - 10.75" to short.

Here is a link that might be useful: dog kennels

If you bought a prefabricated kennel, the manufacturer should have provided a schematic of the support points dimensioned in feet and inches rather than just inches so the architect could note the foundation locations on his drawing as "see manufacturer's diagram" and include it in the contract documents. Alternatively, he could have asked the contractor to provide a final layout from the manufacturer's information for the manufacturer to approve.

An architect would consider it foolish to add up all of the manufacturer's dimensions and take responsibility for the result. An experienced architect knows to avoid taking responsibility for the coordination of structures designed by others. So, I agree the architect was at fault but more from inexperience or poor training than laziness.

How was the discrepancy resolved?

Below is the info I got from the manufacturer - Given to the Architect - 4' panels
How much easier can this be - I was not asking him to take the responsibility for the result - only the 370.75" - 30'-10 3/4" wall to wall.
This guy was not lazy - he spent an addition day redrawing the plans after his mistake was pointed out, but in my opinion careless because he did not check his dimensions.
We left on god terms - he was paid and we moved on with a builder who corrected his foundation plan that did not work with the building plan.
We felt his advise was worth what we paid - This building will blend into the existing house - like it has always been there - this would not have been the case if he were not involved. Definitely will add value to the home (future home owners could envision this as a guest house, work shop or studio - not just a dog kennel building). However - Do I really need to check the Architect's math?

Here is a link that might be useful:

You do not need to check the architect's math but the contract documents should require the contractor to check and coordinate the manufacturer's math with the final foundation drawing. That's the way parts of a project that are manufactured by others are supposed to be coordinated but often are not.

When it comes to layouts as well as other build concerns, everyone involved should be double checking one another's numbers. Measure twice, cut once!

Nicely dump that architect and get a new one. Knock on doors of new construction you like and ask for the name of their architect. Ask your builder for other names (and explain WHY you're switching - this architect referral doesn't reflect well on your builder, imho, and he should know that). In our moves around the country, I've worked with several architects on large remodeling projects and so far the ones I've enjoyed the most are the women who work out of their homes part time after being full-time in firms for several years. They're flexible, REASONABLE, and do a phenomenal job getting correct plans to the contractors and through the permit process.

Thursday the architect stopped by with a scribbled up revised layout he came up with, along with the builder, to shrink the house and cut costs. He took the layout with him and today, Monday, handed a clean, revised layout through the door and was gone. The depth was cut 10 ft and the width was cut 4 ft. Much of it does not work for us, but what is truly disturbing is about 5 things, like French doors to the deck and a kitchen skylight, that were on previous layouts are missing. Did they not fit in the new layout or just forgotten? No idea.

The company building the house has been in business about 50 years, is well known in the area and has an excellent reputation. The architect, who is over 70, has worked with them for many years and I suspect was a friend of the man that started the company. His son now runs it. We have told him our issues with the architect and that we are considering hiring a new one. He is fine with that.

Today we are meeting with a new architect. I do expect to pay more for his services, but as you all know, planning is so important. Hopefully this experience is much better.

Thank you all for your advice. I've learned a lot. For someone that asked, I am in Pittsburgh.

I think you made the right move cutting your losses early with the first architect. If you aren't happy in the early design development phase, things generally don't get better and you pay a lot more to get things to your satisfaction.

I would caution you that building a house is a team effort (architect, engineers, and contractor). It's a lot safer to hire a team that has worked together before and has done so successful. My experience has been that difficulties arise when a contractor has never worked with a particular architect. You are asking the contractor to do things differently than in the past since each architect has his/her own style and preferences. This can lead to friction and may be costly if there are misunderstandings about the plans. If you want the least risk, I would suggest hiring a team that has already very successfully completed projects together.

We are in the preliminary stages of designing a house too. As others have stated, it sounds like you definitely should get another architect based on him not listening to what is important to you. Regarding him drawing by hand, I did want to share that we are using a world class designer who recommended our architect and she specifically said she wouldn't recommend an architect who didn't draw by hand. Right or wrong, I just wanted to point this out so you don't necessarily dismiss a potential new architect who doesn't rely on the computer (I don't think choosing to use the computer is a bad thing either).

The only thing wrong with drawing by hand is it adds time and cost to the project. The largest part of that extra effort is when the architect moves from preliminary design to contract documents. Instead of starting new drawings by hand a CAD system only needs new dimensions and notes layers.

I realize there is an emotional component to the issue of what tools architects use to design buildings and i drew projects by hand for 25 years but the practical reality today is that not providing a client with an interactive computer perspective during the preliminary phase and easily revised CAD drawings in the contract document phase would IMHO be irresponsible if not unprofessional.

I base my opinion not only on how my well clients have responded to the design review opportunities and lower cost of such tools but the fact that much of my best design work would not have been possible without them.

We don't live in a 2D world. No one is going to hang the drawing elevations on the wall; the only thing that matters is the end product and plans and elevations are simply not adequate do assure the client or the architect that the design is as good as it could be.

In school I made good money drawing perspectives for local architects and developers but today it takes too long and nothing can compare with zooming in and out and rotating a house in real time not to mention the ease of revisions, walk-through videos and merging with site photos or google maps.

To me, only recommending architects who don't use CAD would be like only recommending contractors who don't use power tools, laser levels and cell phones.

It's none of my business but I'm curious why someone would need an architect as well as a world class designer.

ARCHITECT, n. One who drafts a plan of your house,
and plans a draft of your money.

- Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914), The Devil's Dictionary, 1911

"CRITIC, n. A person who boasts himself hard to please because nobody tries to please him."

The definitions in the DevilâÂÂs Dictionary are meant to be satirical, combining cynical criticism and wit (in the case of an Architect, double entendre).

Brickeyee gets the cynical criticism but not the wit, so he misses the point, as he does with most comments he reads on the forum.

No, I got it just fine.

You seem to be a little oversensitive.

Just tired of your bs.

Hi Renovator8

My goal was simply to not leave MacyPA the impression that an architect who hand draws wasn't doing as good of a job as one who uses a computer and that based on a good source, he/she could feel open to someone who does either. I hope I didn't leave the impression I feel one is better than the other because, to me, it just depends on the professional and not their method.

You asked why we would need a designer and an architect. I don't mind answering at all. I think it's quite a luxury to have a specialist in each area and both certainly aren't needed. Not everyone has the ability or desire to use both and those projects can be just as wonderful. This is the first time we are building so I'm not exactly sure where one stops and the other starts, but in my case, I envision the architect siting the house, proportioning the spaces, and adding the details to make it interesting and attractive from the inside and out. I see the designer as the one who will work on furniture layout, colors, fabrics and other materials. There will probably be some overlap and they will collaborate on the look and feel of the house. So definitely not needed and more of an indulgence.

I understand but I see so many homeowners on the forum getting such limited design services from designers and architects and I rightly or wrongly equate hand drawings with severely limited services. It is possible that some homeowners do not want to pay to see their house in perspective view or receive major revisions or alternate options in a day or two but in the semi-urban affluent region where I practice these services are expected.

Where I practice your designer would be called an Interior Designer and might work for the architect or the homeowner. It is important that they carefully coordinate their design work and contract documents and in your situation that puts the responsibility on you to verify that the coordination occurs.

I have experience with pipping design and geologic mapping software and elements are tied together. Isometric drawings can develop out of plan drawings. Geological and Isopach maps from data points. I guess I wonder why foundations are not tied to the floorplans etc in architectural software?

What do you mean by "tied"?

It would indicate a data bust "error" between two things that should agree. If the plan indicates a 30' wall the foundation needs 8" additional so 31' - 4".

The dimensioned exterior foundation wall face of a house sets the dimensions for all floors above so it is not necessary for the two to be linked in the CAD drawings.

A concrete foundation is built to the dimensions on the foundation plan and the frame of the building is built to sit on that with allowances for any minor errors in the concrete pour. If the foundation was poured 6" short, the house will be built 6" short unless someone is willing to pay to tear the foundation out and build it again.

The difference is that all of a building shell is cut to fit at the site rather than ordered in a particular size.

Interesting thread...we interviewed 10 architects before selecting the "one".

We did not consider those that did not use software to zoom in and out, rotate the house in real time, walk-through videos and merging the plan with site photos and google maps.

We have four key view areas that need to be maximize and three surrounding homes to avoid from an almost all glass home. It was critical for us to be able to review the plan in every possible way. Our architect even got a cherry picker so we could view vistas from the first and second floor before we agreed to move forward with the plans. Yes, we paid for the cherry picker rental but it was a small price in relation to the overall cost of what we are building.

IMHO, a hand drawn plan on a paper site survey drawing would not have given us the assurances we needed to be certain we captured the views and addressed obstructions where we wanted them.

One other note, our architect also took furniture and art dimensions and will layer them into the plan so we know everything will fit and work where we envision it. This is not our home as we are not yet at that stage but one example of what we contracted to get. Maybe overkill for some and just another viewpoint.

Here is a link that might be useful: Architect Rendering

You needed a cherry picker to see what the view would be from the side of a mountain?

@renovator* - Not sure where u got "side of a mountain" from.

From the rendering that you linked.

I love 3D modeling MichelleDT! I think a virtual look around is a great tool, and I've seen it used successfully in a few projects I've been involved with.

@renovator* - "This is not our home as we are not yet at that stage but one example of what we contracted to get".

@musings - it is very cool and u really get a feel for how you will live in the home.

M

MacyPA,
I'm sorry you have had such a bad experience with an architect (if he even is one). I am a licensed architect and hearing how he has treated you is disappointing and unprofessional. Regardless of his profession, it sounds like he has poor social skills and bad business sense! Unfortunately with all things in life, you have good, bad, indifferent, lazy, etc people no matter what their trade is.

First off, it is YOUR house, why in the world would you continue to employe ANYONE who doesn't listen and then design what YOU want!?! The only caveat to this is if you purposely hire a huge name designer for their specific brand of architecture (ie Frank Lloyd Wright, Frank Ghery or A. Hayes Town). So, if you are fighting to get YOUR wants for YOUR house, then this guy is NOT for you. Do NOT waste any more of your time and money!

Secondly, his fee does sound low... so it may be that he's giving you a discount b/c he's in with the contractor and development. Or he's just cheap and thus it may be a "you get what you pay for" scenario. But at least you are only paid up through schematics.

Personally, I would take what you have paid for and find another architect. Take the time to really interview candidates. (It's a tough economy, architects in the Southeast are pretty hungry for work.) Your house design by nature is very personal, so you really need to 'click' with your architect. You need to feel comfortable that the design professional will take everything you say seriously and really listen to your program requirements, issues and concerns. With that, one hopes the architect can provide solutions that work for you, wether you conceived of them or not. So much of what we architects do is synthesize information. So obviously, listening is quite important.

On the topic of CAD drawing... It is hard for me to believe that there are [profitable] architects practicing today that don't use the computer. I love hand drafting, BUT it is wildly inefficient & impractical these days for most every kind of architect. (And it sounds like this guy could benefit from the preciseness the computer affords.)

In the end, I'm happy you actually considered an architect. It's encouraging to hear that people still find us valid in the residential sector. Unfortunately this experience my have turned you off... BUT please know a good architect can be a very worthwhile investment. You are spending a LOT of money, time and energy on your new home, why shouldn't it be designed how YOU want and need? An architect should be YOUR advocate (not the builders or developers). The architect should have YOUR best interests in the forefront of making the design work for you, on your lot and in your budget.

Feel free to email me, I'm happy to answer questions. Depending on where you live, I am happy to offer recommendations for architects I know around the USA.