A few more things to consider or try:

What version of Electrosol are you using? (Powder, tabs, gel, gelpac?) Is it enzyme-based, no bleach? Have you matched the detergent type setting in the Miele to what you are using?

How much are you using? If powder, you do NOT want to fill the cups completely. I fill just to the very bottom line in the main cup, & no more than 1 teaspoon in the prewash compartment for a very soiled load.

Are you using a rinse agent, like JetDry?

If you are doing all of the above, consider trying a different detergent. We've had great results with enzyme based Cascade Complete powder.

I've been using "Electrosol Advanced" now called "finish." I read the ingredients and it does list chlorine bleach. Is that bad? I use exactly 1 tablespoon, as I have a little container and scoop that I measure with. I had to do that because husband and kids were adding too much and I thought that might be why I was getting etched glassware (see below). I will get some of Casade complete. I just assumed that the service guy, who scrutinized my box of detergent, would have his information correct. He said I need Electrosol because of the beginning temp of the water in the Miele, etc. etc. and that other brands are not activated until much later ??

Anyway, yes, I do use Jet Dry and have fiddled with the dosage a bit, as I have had fairly severe etching on my new glasses. Very maddening and very hard to troubleshoot. Manual says cause may be due to "too much rinse aide" or "too little rinse aide" OR "too much detergent" or "too little detergent." That, coupled with the cleaning issue, makes me want to reinstall my old Asko, which I still have!

The consensus here is that too much detergent will etch glassware, but some glassware is more prone to it than others. Unfortunately, once glasses are etched, you can't wash them back to un-etched.

Definitely try enzyme-based detergent, and don't prerinse your dishes, just scrape. Not all Cascade is enzyme-based, so be sure to read the ingredient fine print. If the box says bleach anywhere, it's not enzyme based.

Some GW posters use Miele tabs, in part to help family members use the correct amount of detergent! However, they're expensive. I have not tried them yet.

I don't understand your service guy's comment about Electrosol being required for your DW's water temp. We have two Miele dishwashers, one connected to cold water & the other to hot water. Doing this means we have some cycle differences, but the Cascade works great in both of them. Most cycles have a pre-wash, so the main cup isn't being released until later anyway.

I would reset the rinse agent back to the default dosage.

Finally, are you using salt (Miele or Somat in the salt dispenser in the bottom)? If not, check the water hardness as shown in the Miele settings screen--it monitors this. Initially I didn't put in salt & was shocked to find that our city water was harder than I expected. The machine uses salt as it needs it to balance the water, & it asks for a refill every 6-8 months, so this is not troublesome.

How to insert pictures into a thread. I included the link to a thread with detailed steps.

Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: How to insert a picture into a thread!

First off, if your detergent lists chlorine as an ingredient, get rid of it. Use an enzyme-based detergent for optimal results. You can usually tell if a detergent is enzyme-based because you won't see the word chlorine in the list of ingredients. Enzymes and chlorine are not compatible.

Secondly, are you sure that nothing is blocking a spray arm? Until you're used to loading your new machine, get into the habit of giving the spray arm under the upper basket a spin with your hand after you push the loaded baskets in. If it spins freely, you're good to go. Sometimes a pan handle in the lower rack or something protruding down from the upper rack will block the spray arm. When that happens, wash results will be less than satisfactory.

Personally, I tend to think your problems are related to the chlorine-based detergent. I think you'll notice a dramatic improvement with an enzyme-based detergent. Enzyme-based detergents are also much easier on your dishes, particularly metals.

I use Electrosol/Finish tabs (which I buy at Costco) and get excellent cleaning results in my Miele.

Hope this helps.

I posted a reply earlier, but have no idea where I posted it to. there will be some random miele pictures in someone's thread!

Anyway, I'm attaching a link to photos that I've taken over a number of days. Understand that the residue that I have issues with are things that would have been cleaned in my old dishwasher. I know that no dishwasher is going to take off hard, baked on stuff.

When you look at the photos, know that in all instances, I can wipe the residue off with a damp sponge. I don't ever have to rub at it. That is what is so perplexing.

Also. I do not rinse, I just scrape. I did go out and buy Cascade Complete (enzyme, no bleach) and still had residue on a very light load from last night. By looking at the photos, you will see that there is nothing that has been blocking the spray arms.

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele dishwasher problem photos

IMHO Your pictures confirm, based upon my DW experience that there is something wrong with your DW. Do not drop the issue with Miele service. Keep after them, let them know that the performance of the machine is totally unacceptable, that Miele has a reputation that your machine is not living up to, etc. If you can't get satifaction via phone write to the head of service in Princeton. There is a letter on one of these threads that another troubled Miele DW owner wrote. Claimed that did the trick! Let us know what happens.

Send the pictures to Miele customer service. I don't think your machine is getting a enough water. Did you check your water connections and make sure they are the right size and that the plumber did not reduce the water intake size? I would also change the detergent and see if that helps.

Best of luck!

You know, I have tried to send them the photos, but they will not accept them. Instead, they send a service person out here, who hooks up his computer, does all his tests and proclaims that everything is absolutely perfect. This has happened three times now. they seem bound and determined to continue this indefinitely. Honestly, I've been dealing with this over well over 4 months now.

water softness= perfect
connections/water supply/hookups = perfect
detergent = perfect

So, I need to be able to go over the heads of the normal route. Massgirl said send them a letter in Princeton. Do you have any information on that? I could print out really good photos and include them.

1st - after running 20 min. or so open the door slowly and tell me how much water is in the bottom, do the same during final rinse. A picture would be better.

2nd - what is your rinse aid setting on?

3rd - increase the dosage of detergent to 2 tablespoon and report back.

I just ran my dishwasher and I blocked the detergent bin because I had a really large platter in the dishwasher. I was trying to do too much at once. Without detergent, they dishes were sparkling clean. I moved the platter and let it run again with detergent this time just to make sure it was really clean. There is something wrong with your machine or installation. Can you take a picture under your sink and also post that.

Good luck and I know this is really frustrating!

I am running it now and taking pics. Not sure how i will know when the final rinse is going on, but will do my best to guess.

Not sure if this unit has a long heat dry? that was how I was finally able to stop the etching process in my old Asko. But I don't have the option to turn that off on the Optima that I can see, tho I haven't delved into the manual to find that out.

Will also take pics under the sink, tho I am pretty sure that is all good. I'll post tomorrow.

Your pictures identify a problem with the water circulation in your machine. As mentioned before, there may not be enough water to operate the spray arms with enough pressure and rotation. You have a problem with original soils not be washed away......that almost always points to a low water fill.

As others have said, the enzyme detergents are best. I think your current trouble is not entirely detergent related.

I stayed up late last night to take the pictures I promised. I used 2T of Cascade complete. The updated pictures are added to the end of the gallery below. Unfortunately, after taking the last picture of the finished cycle, I decided to wait until morning to take pics of the actual plates and dishes. Before I could do that, someone in my family opened and then shut tight the DW, which started the normal cycle all over again. And I want to know: DOES THIS HAPPEN WITH ALL MIELE'S OR JUST MINE? It is yet another reason I hate this dishwasher: you run a complete cycle, open the door. The power light, "I" and the "normal" light are on. If you then inadvertently shut the door before manually pressing the off, "O" button, the DW will begin all over again -- on your clean and previously dry dishes. I know it is off topic, but I would love to hear comments on that. It DRIVES ME CRAZY!

Anyway, my water level pictures are inconclusive, at least to me, because I don't know how much water SHOULD be in the base. After 20 minutes the milky colored water was about .5" in the shallow areas and about 1" deep in the area right by the strainer/drainer thing. The rinse cycle -- or what I guessed was the rinse cycle, picture taken about 35 minutes before end of 2 hour cycle, was similar, but perhaps there was a little less.

I did take a look at some of the individual plates when it was done, but didn't take pictures. What I found was that there were still some very small areas of faint residue that I could rub off with my thumb. It would appear to me that 2T of detergent (which came up to the lowest line in the soap container) seemed to work better, but that it didn't solve the problem.

I continue to believe that this is a water/pressure/rinse issue but I don't know how I CAN GET MIELE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. It still seems to me that -- it being so new -- the retailer should offer to exchange and THEY should deal with Miele. But I am AT MY WIT'S END. I sincerely appreciate all of your help and suggestions. Does anyone have any specific contact info? Or the link to the thread with the previous poster who had issues that went to the top and got some results?

Here is a link that might be useful: updates Miele DW problems showing water during cycle

I've got a Miele Optima 2430 and if the entire cycle has finished it does not restart if you open and close the door. You have to push the Start/Stop button to make it start again.

I agree with the others that it sounds like a rinse issue, not the detergent. If you're able to easily wipe the stuff off then it seems like the detergent is working.

I assume the tech checked the filter to make sure it's clear of debris?

AARRRggg! I knew it! I've simply got a lemon, don't I? I need to know what to do now... And yes, service has checked filter (even put in a new one), connections, water temps and found it in "perfect working condition." Never mind the dirty dishes. I guess I must just be crazy.

It's easy to press the start button on our Excella inadvertently when closing the door. Turning the power off prevents that, but I understand doing so defeats some anti-leaking function.

I am not an expert my any means. Your installation does not look right. There is a severe reduction in the size of the line going into the box thing. The technical term fails me right now. One more picture of the hose going into the disposal discharge outlet would be great too.

Thanks. I know this is really frustrating but you will get a resolution.

Good luck!

Not sure what the disposal discharge is, but took several pictures and added them to gallery. See below.

Now that I went back under the sink to better explain it, I realize that I might be missing a photo -- that being the hose going into the garbage disposal. To explain better than the photo captions, this is what I see:
Copper pipe has shut off valve with 3/8" metal pipe going into white box thing and a larger accordian type hose coming out and disappearing behind DW.
Another accordian type hose appears from behind DW and goes into the top part of the DISPOSAL. The only smaller hose is coming from copper and terminating into small white box
Hope that helps

Here is a link that might be useful: Updates showing Under Sink Connections

The correct water level in the machine tub base should be at or above the grey plastic circular grate that the filter handle attaches to. Can't tell from your pics.

Can you check to make sure the hot water inlet valve(under your sink)is fully open?

Jen - water level looks about right but still hard to tell from your pics with the racks in the way. DixieD is correct the level should just cover the ring that the filter handle is attached to, but not completely cover the salt resi. cover.

I think you are/were not using enough detergent, sounds like using 2 tbs. gave better results, might increase it a bit, but not yet.

You never did say what your rinse aid setting is on. I think increasing it's dosage will solve your film problem on the dishes.

I am assuming that your heater is working correctly since service has been there - but you never know? Is the water in the tub really really hot half way through a wash cycle?

I don't care for the 3/8" supply hookup but unless your water pressure is really low it should provide plenty of water to the unit. BTW you need to rotate the inlet box so the arched back is pointing up, not laying on its side like you currently have it.

The unit should not restart again even if you close the door
unless a wash program was selected. I'll have to double check the newest generation to see if the electronic menu selector has change this. It might be that you have to choose cancel or menu to not have it start. My personal units are Incognitos because they are far more simple for people to use. Put in soap and push button #4, that's it, no menus to navigate down 3 levels or squinting to see the LED in bright light.

Rinse aid setting has been restored to the default setting, and was set to that quite a while ago. I do not have film on my dishes, I am getting severe etching on clear glasses and pyrex pie plates and measuring cups. I HATE ETCHING. I battled it for a long time with my Asko and finally got it licked by not heat drying and by ALWAYS having soft water. I understand the Miele doesn't use a standard heat dry, and my water has been tested both by unit and by tech and is soft, yet I am still having serious etching.

Heater is working, as tech guy measured temp of water. I will fix the white box. I am not sure how it was lying before I took the photos, but I did mess with it in order to take the photos. What is the purpose for that?

You say you "don't care for" the 3/8" hose. What should it be instead?

My optima doesn't have very many choices, so I don't have the sensor wash that I read about so often on this forum. I assume the "normal" should be my cycle of choice. We usually run 1x a day and it is usually pretty full. I never rinse.

I am going to move the white box now. Just for the record, I ran the unit last night with 2T (tech guys were rabidly insistent that I not use a speck more than 1T!) after having spaghetti. There weren't very many challenging dishes and they came out good, for the most part. I still have residue on the green bowls in the middle rack (see gallery photos from past post.) Bowls are always put in that position and they fit very nicely, angled down. Bowls are used for cereal. Is milky specs from cereal considered a problematic dish to wash?

Will keep up with responses. Thanks again!

Having the control box oriented correctly allows the solenoid valve to fail in the closed position and stop water from entering the unit in event of a complete failure.

1/2" copper to either a 3/4 valve or threaded adapter to hook up to the control box. N.B. this has no bearing on your cleaning issues.

film vs. "residue" what's the difference?

Tech's like to repeat the mantra 1 tablespoon. Some even get it wrong and tell ya one teaspoon. Tell em to read the manual: up to 3 tsb. are marked for and to start at 1 and INCREASE if your dishes aren't getting clean. You can also use the xtra resivoir for really dirty stuff.

Dishwashing is pretty simple. Soap + Hot Water + Time = clean dishes. Lower one of those and your going to have problems. The correct amounts depend on your foods, and water. It can also be a fine line between clean/dirty and ruined dishes.

What is the pH of your water? Did you know that your water can be too soft and cause problems? Are you sure the glasses are etched and don't just have a mineral buildup on them, unlikely but don't guess? Pyrex is way more difficult to etch than crystal, and I'd be suprised that 1-2 washes would etch that.

I'd increase the rinse aid one level at a time to see if the residue goes away. Lower det. to 1.5 tsb. and see if you still get clean, otherwise stick with 2. Verify that you have enough water in the rinse cycle. Move those bowls to another spot and see if the residue remains, could be that the miele just isn't compatible with those. Send your water out to and independant lab to see what the chemistry is.

It's possible that the miele will never give great results in your specfic situation. Doesn't mean you got a lemon or miele is bad, just no product is going to work well in every situation.

"residue" is actual food debris that hasn't been washed away. It is identifiable, in many cases as such. When not identifiable, you can use your thumb, or nail to rub or scrape away thin patches of something. But it is not a "film" as I consider that to be sort of all over.

I already did the steps of ratcheting up the rinse aid one step at a time and that only made things worse. In fact it seemed to me that during that time was when the pyrex developed the efflourescense (aka etching) that is impossible to remove no matter what you do (yes, I've tried). It didn't happen in one or two washes. but I can attest that you can do some mighty quick damage with hard water and hot heat dry, as was my experience with the Asko.

I don't have the PH of my water handy, tho it has been tested because we have a pool. I can look that up, but I was told by the service guy (who is, at this point, a guy of disrepute) that it tested at the perfect range. The dishwasher also indicated it was fine, tho it probably won't tell you if it is TOO soft. I will look up ( or test) my water and post asap.

Too much rinse aid can cause sudsing, which could interfere with rotation of the wash arm.

dadoes - how is rinse aid dosed out in miele's maximum quantity going to cause sudsing?

You'd need almos a one to one , water to rinse aid ratio for it to even begin to be a problem. Since the resivor is about 8 oz. there is no chance of approaching those ratios.

Now, over sudsing with detergent is another story.

Jen - I'd try to find out the content of the water - not just the pH.

Maximum dosage on my DD causes some mild sudsing (if I set it that high). I can see some foam residue and hear faint pops (like a carbonated drink) of the bubbles dissipating if I open the drawer immediately after the final rinse drain. My water is 11 grains hardness.

You are not going crazy! I have a Meile Optima and while it does have it's quirks, it works great and does not have the problems that you are describing. I now use Miele tabs, rinse-aid and salt and it works perfectly. That is just one more thing to try...but I think you have a lemon. Oh, and after I open my clean DW I have to turn it off or it runs a new cycle when I close it. So that is normal. It sounds like not everyone's Optima does that? Maybe that can be changed in the menu?? Good luck and keep us posted.

Also helpful to know , would be the temperature of your hot water at the sink.

THANK YOU shannonaz for letting me know that your Optima ALSO runs a new cycle if you don't manually turn it off. It makes me feel better to know that mine is not the only one. But what an incredibly MADDENING quirk...

antss: my tap hot water temperature is 124 degrees. My ph is 7.3. As for the content, it is well water being softened. We have had it tested very recently (for our addition and new softener) and it did not require any extra equipment. I believe the iron content is 2ppm. Hardness was 20 grains before softening.

Hope that answers all outstanding questions. I am just starting a very full load that has been sitting for two days. This should be a good test for the new detergent and larger amount. Will post results.

jen- pH is really good, hardness is off the charts - 20 grains? Do you know what grains # is after softening?

you can/could have the final wash programed to a lower temp but I doubt that'll have an effect on your etching and will impede drying.

Well, I'm back after several washes. I haven't really wanted to post because it's so FRICKEN CRAZY!

I'll say this: it is still making the disturbing crackling noise that is very wrong. But the residue problems seem all but gone. I still have a bowl or spoon here or there that doesn't come completely clean but I'm willing to think it might just be a loading issue. The change in the type and amount of detergent seems to have fixed the worst of it. I am going to continue to push it and inspect it carefully.

I can't thank everyone enough. What a stupid and simple fix. It makes me want to shoot the service guy who is a "certified miele tech expert." What a putz. How will I ever trust one again?

I will probably need to call someone about the noise it's making. But I did read about someone who fixed it herself by getting into the impeller. anyone know about that? Or should I do a new post?

Jenmenke,
Glad to hear things are getting better although not perfect yet. Can you purchase a small container of the Miele tabs or Finish Quantum to try? This way you are using a dosed tab and can confirm that the unit works well. If you have a stuck impeller, which is a common issue and the first installer should have fixed it because the machine was probably manufactured and sitting around for a few months after it was tested with water. Give Miele Tech support a call and they will walk you through the process to unstick the impeller.

Good luck!

jenmenke,

We recently got a Miele Optima too (model 2432 -> the 2430 had just been replaced so we got upgraded to this one while our order was in process). When our 4 year old Kenmore DW died ($400 to fix!) :(

That is the second Kenmore appliance (the other was a 15 year old refrigerator) that has gone out while we were in the preliminary planning (gathering ideas) phase for our kitchen remodel. We replaced that with a GE profile French door with bottom freezer that we really like.

Having spent a lot of time on this forum, I knew I wanted to get a Miele. Im hoping we get a lot more than 4 years out of it.

The first few loads we ran also seemed to not get as clean as the Kenmore. Some of it was loading issues. The Kenmore had a very symmetric tine layout while the MieleÂs is wildly asymmetric. Also many of the tines are very close together (so they can claim a 14 place setting capacity I guess). I find it works better to use every other one for bowls and large plates or there is too much overlap.

The large insert along the left hand side that is supposed to hold plates didnÂt work very well for us. It didnÂt hold our plates securely and it had a lot of bumps that made it less than ideal for pots and pans. If you remove it, then the underlying grid has huge holes in it that might be great for a large pot, but you canÂt put anything small over there or it will fall through. I ended up buying the "large diameter plate insert" (GTLU 35 Â 06220270). I took out the large insert and moved the one with the fold down tines to the left side of the bottom tray in its place (it locks in over there). For some reason, the large diameter plate insert didnÂt lock securely in the tray, so ended up tie wrapping it. I use that for our large plates and it works great. The tines are far enough apart to allow the water to get in between them.

We use Bright Green Automatic Dishwasher Powder Detergent (Dye and Fragrance Free). DW wanted to get away from using phosphorous detergent so she bought this. I was skeptical, but it works great if you use the right amount. Our detergent bowl has three levels (lower, 20, & 30) and there is also the pre-wash cup next to it. I started out using just enough detergent to fill lower level with a little in the pre-wash cup (about 1/3 full) but the dishes werenÂt getting clean. I went up the 20 line and filled the pre-wash cup about 3/4 full and it cleaning great now.
We have naturally soft water (I think it is 1-2 grains) so we donÂt have to use salt. We use Jet Dry liquid rinse agent on the default setting. I havenÂt noticed any etching.

The plastic containers donÂt get as dry at the end of the cycle as the Kenmore, but that had a fan that blew directly into the tub (and hot moist air into the room) instead of along the outside of the tub like the Miele.

Conclusion: It took a while to figure out how to best load it (IÂm very rigorous in following a pattern and DW is more haphazard which doesnÂt yield as good results), but IÂm happy with the Miele after putting in the large diameter plate insert and I figuring out how much detergent to use. I always use Normal Wash setting. I usually load the dishwasher in the evening and set it up to run 4 hours later after midnight (it never wakes us up). I use rinse once in a while if IÂm not going to run a load of dirty dishes until the next day.

One more thing, I rinse my dishes like always. IÂve never found a dishwasher that is fully loaded that will completely clean dishes that arenÂt at least somewhat rinsed. I try not to rinse them completely to save water, but I use some water. For Pyrex baking dishes, we often soak them overnight (with soap) or else the corners donÂt get clean. I rinse the soap out before putting them in the dishwasher.

Ken___

I had some similar issues with my Bosch when I first got it. I was using Cascade powder and I was still getting used to the loading the new machine. I had some dishes that were less than clean. I switched to Finish Dual Action Tabs and started placing items differently, the tines are really close together, and now I have no complaints. Again it was a learning curve, especially coming from an American machine to the Bosch. After six months, and pretty much daily use, I have had no etching of glassware. I am very pleased with the machine.

My Bosch will only allow you to open the door and add an item during the first 25 minutes, anything after that and you have to restart the whole cycle.

I hope you get everything resolved, spending large amounts of money on appliances and not having them live up to your standards can be very frustrating!

homepro01: who knows WHAT the installer did or didn't do. Like I said, I don't trust anything about them anymore. Nor do I give any credence to the Miele phone support people, who -- trust me --, I have spent hours on the phone with. In each and every case they asked me how much detergent I was using and I always said "exactly 1 tablespoon of Electosol." How quickly this could have been cleared up if they had suggested what you all suggested here. I mean, I just can't communicate my astonishment and frustration at the incompetence and at the time I have lost on this.

kennethecoates and wolfc70: I have the same deal as you. I am the dishwasher loading dictator and the rest of the family rolls their eyes. I, too, have learned where to put stuff. I have lots of big bowls and platters and tend to use the big area in the bottom rack intended for plates, as it gives the most flexibility. I have moved our regular plates next door to the longest row of tines running parallel and our deeper bowls to the shorter tines in the front that run perpendicular to it.

The thing I seem to have the most problems with, still, are the peagreen bowls (you can see them in my gallery posted above). They are melmac and are used almost exclusively for my son's cereal habit. His cereal of choice is Cinnamon Toast Crunch. We don't rinse, but just load and they sit all day until the load is washed at night. Those bowls hardly ever come out clean and I am beginning to wonder if it is the nature of the CEREAL (leaving little specks of cinnamon in the milk film), coupled with the plastic MELMAC that is the problem. Any comments there?

Don't have a Miele, though I'm kind of in the market for one so have followed this thread avidly. So sorry for your frustration.

I DO however have a son with a serious cereal habit, and can affirm that there is nothing on earth that sticks to a dish like milk-soaked cereal. It reminds me of when I was a kid and made Christmas gifts gluing pasta to various objects as "decoration." If I don't rinse that cereal bowl IMMEDIATELY, I find that I can NOT dislodge those damn cheerios without a major soapy soak, and my Kenmore DW (which does a stellar job otherwise), can't either.

The only other substance that somehow survives a full cycle in my DW: peanut butter.

"Give Miele Tech support a call and they will walk you through the process to unstick the impeller. "

If the unit runs and doesn't throw a fault code then the impeller is not stuck - so this is moot.

"a stuck impeller, which is a common issue " - I wouldn't go that far. It's not unheard of but common? I've seen it once in 15-20 year of Miele DW experience.

I use the photo bucket, its a lot simpler to get the pictures in.

go to photo bucket,click on albums, your list of albums will show up, click on the picture that you want to send, that picture will come up bigger on the left side of the screen, now look to the right of the screen, and there is your Image link codes in a square, your going to click onto the HTML Code, when you click onto that, you'll see a yellow sign pop up below that ,that says copied in yellow, now take your mouse ,and grab onto that url where it said copied, hang onto it and come back to the message on GW, now place in down here where I'm writing, then let go with your mouse, make sure its in a row all by itself. I hope this helps, It works great for me.

lacombe: thanks for advice, but I solved that question a while ago. I posted it to my mac.com gallery and posted the link a few times, the last being on 2/26.