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dallasauburn

Question about contractor approach

16 years ago

We are approaching a major remodel and are using a residential designer. This designer works with a design/build contractor who has done many new builds and down-to-the-studs remodels in our neighborhood. Our plan is to develop plans using this designer and then bid it out. I prefer this approach because I cannot justify the expense of an architect for the scope of our work, and because I believe the residential designer will design a plan that is "buildable" at an affordable level -- we are in a neighborhood of 50s brick ranches where most are being updated, extensively remodeled or town down and rebuilt.

I am working in parallel on a set of specs to provide with the plans for the bid package. I know architects typically provide specs as part of his/her services, but this residential designer will not be as detailed as an architect, and so I want to cover my bases (as well as educate myself). The designer will provide drawings (interior, elevations, etc) and specs for electrical and plumbing.

I started with the easy stuff... item numbers and makes/models/finshes for appliances, light fixtures, plumbing fixtures, etc. Now I am at the point that I would like to specify finishes and details regarding the quality level of workmanship, the quality of other items such as shingles, insulation (R-value), etc., and I am overwhelmed. Is there a document that exists that I can use as a starting point? How does one know how to specify precisely what they want without detailed knowledge of every trade? I can't believe that an architect has this level of detailed knowledge, either. At some point, it seems that the contractor has to specify the level of quality (Marvin windows, etc) that they typically use and then the owner "upgrades" or down grades.

The contractor did provide a "typical" spec that seems to have a lot of detail, but I don't know how to begin to fill-in-the-blank. For example, there is a framing table that specifies material, grade, size and spacing for girders, sills, studs, 1st floor joists, 2nd, ceiling, rafers, sub-floor, roof deck. I don't know how to fill in this table -- this seems very specific to the builder.

So, in summary...

1. Is there a specification document that I can use as a starting point?

2. How do I know what to specify to give me a quality build, or do I have to over-educate myself on every trade?

3. Would love to hear various approaches from real word situations.

And, kind-of off topic, but I'm leaning toward the appraoch of a negotiated contract with this builder, but don't understand how I can negotiate a contract when, again, I don't know specifics of every trade and the costs associated.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but felt like I needed to provide some details / background for clarity.

Thank you in advance for sharing your knowledge, opinions and experience.

Comments (11)

  • 16 years ago

    do some research on these boards and pick out some brands and models of windows/doors/lights/vanities/cabinets/etc... that you're interested. Honestly, with our build we specified that we would purchase these particular itmes and had the contractor only factor in installation. Now there are a couple of warranty problems you could run in to with that, but it's worth it imo. I think with the internet overall and specifically ebay, you can find some stuff for far less than contractors on stuff that isn't really considered a building supply. We bought vanities off ebay and craigslist for far less than many of the showrooms we looked at. Also things like door handles seem cheap at $30 a pair from your builder, but that looks horrible when you see them on ebay for $12.

  • 16 years ago

    also a note, you may not be an expert about every trade now, but you will absolutely know more about building supplies and trades than you would ever want to after you finish. You might as well get used to looking in to these things, because it's always a good idea to check the work your contractor is doing and educate yourself about your house. Also, don't worry too much about the quality of some building materials because the architect should specify what materials are used for the basic structure of the house.

  • 16 years ago

    "I can't believe that an architect has this level of detailed knowledge ..."

    That's an odd thing to say since providing detailed information, including the quality of all materials as well as industry standards and installation requirements, is a basic part of an architect's services.

    There are "Master Specifications" in digital format that are written for architects to edit for each project but they would probably be too expensive to purchase for a single project and you would still need to be able to understand the large number of choices offered and the amount of information would be considerably more than what a builder would provide. What you might be able to use is a "Master Outline Specification" which is basically a list of all of the materials with bare minimum descriptions and no standards or installation requirements. This is what a homebuilder normally provides to a homeowner but an architect would normally use it as the preliminary step in writing a full specification.

    It is also a normal part of an architect's services to explain the different kinds of contracts and project delivery methods and advise you on what would be appropriate for your situation.

    If you want to learn enough to be able to do all of this yourself it is best to practice on someone else's house first because novice mistakes can be expensive and cause delays.

    I would suggest hiring an architect or entering into a design-build contract with the builder where the designer works for the builder. Taking responsibility for the design and construction documents yourself without much knowledge or training with only the assistance of a designer exposes you to major risks as you seem to be discovering.

  • 16 years ago

    I guess we did the "fast and dirty" approach. We specified exactly what we wanted on the things we knew, for instance, we stated in the contract that 11ft ceilings would have triple crown moulding, 10ft ceilings would have double crown moulding, and 9ft ceilings would have single crown moulding. For things we didn't (and still don't) know anything about (studs, joists, concrete mix, etc), we stated that it must be "to code or better."

    One caveat: if you specify a minimum in your contract, you will get the minimum. We stated baseboards to be a minimum of 7 1/4" -- and that's exactly what we got.

  • 16 years ago

    An outline specification would list basic features like phillipeh mentioned. A full specification would state the trim manufacturer, material, profile number and how it was to be installed and reference the finish section and perhaps the blocking section for coordination.

    How far you go depends entirely on how important these issue are to you and who is doing them.

    One of the advantages sometimes overlooked by homeowners and builders is that sections of a full specification are designed to be given to a sub-contractor as part of their contract. Having everyone using the same information, including coordination cross references to the work of other sub-contractors, can save a lot of trouble for the builder and the homeowner.

    It's not difficult or time consuming to write a full specification for a house since the author would generally use similar materials appropriate for his/her location, market, and clients. Just be careful to change the header so the name of the previous job doesn't pop up.

    One of my specs would have to have the foundation section rewritten and many other sections added, deleted or heavily modified for Texas. And there are probably materials commonly used in that climate for which I would be hesitant to responsible because they often fail in New England. My point is that the US is a big country and construction specifications often differ greatly from region to region. For that reason much of the information found on the internet is inappropriate with the exception of Joe Lstiburek's site.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Joe Lstiburek

  • 16 years ago

    Thank you all for your feedback.

    Forgive me for my ignorance on an architect's knowledge base. I am an engineer, and, despite over a decade of experience, there's still so much detail I do not know. Perhaps my field is more broad. I know an architect obviously can specify materials for the structure of a building and the asthetics, lighting, livability of a building, but HVAC, plumbing, building science... I just don't have a feel for all of those details and how they are specified and to what level by an architect.

    I am thinking that I bit off more than I can chew. I have two small children and a demanding job, as does my husband, and I can not dedicate the time that is necessary to write my own spec. I have read, and undersand, the importance of making sure every detail is specified before the contract is signed. And I really wanted to bid the project out because, otherwise, how do I possibly know whether or not I am being taken to the cleaners? It seems that in a design / build situation, you are simply a sitting duck.

    Phillpeh's approach might also work... still thinking about how I might do that and where I might start...

  • 16 years ago

    You are trying to take on too much, IMO, very noble of you but not necessary!! Dh and I had A builder and that's it!! He came to us with his bid and showed us the "levels" of build he could do plus the cost. Very simple. Then we had the option to upgrade or downgrade on most items. As for the "lumber pkg" and foundation work we TRUSTED him to build with his subs and use the local lumber yard AFTER he explained the lumber, pricing, quality, etc. You really don't have to be in control of everything in that you have to pick out every single little detail!!

  • 16 years ago

    The process hinges on whether you want to bid or negotiate the contract.

    If you bid it you must hire someone who can put together a competent set of construction documents including specifications and door, window and fixture schedules.

    With a negotiated design-build contract the builder would be responsible for all design documents and specifications and providing you with fair market prices and competitively bidding the sub-contracts.

    It is also possible to interview contractors and compare their Fee proposals and then negotiate a Cost of the Work Plus a Fee contract that includes the design by the contractor.

    Everyone's situation and goals are different so there is no best way to do it.

    I recommend starting by asking yourself what level of design competence you want, how much input you want to be able to give to that process, and how much you can afford to pay for design services. You will also be limited by who is available to provide design services in your area.

    The next considerations are how you will finance the project and how soon you need to start and finish.

    I find that after you answer these questions there is usually only one project delivery method that works.

  • 16 years ago

    I'm building in Dallas and none of the 20 builders I interviewed would build without structural engineering plans. Those plans cost $1.25-1.75 per covered square foot. This is independent of the archtectural plans. The engineer specs the strutural elements and materials based on the plans.

  • 16 years ago

    twotogo -- how do you know that your builder's prices were competitive?

    Negotiating the contract with a design / build firm is precisely the process I am hung up on. I want to bid the project out because I want a fair price. I don't want the lowest price, I just don't want to be taken to the cleaners. Without a comparison to another builder, I don't understand how I can know whether the price is fair.

    macv -- you said, "With a negotiated design-build contract the builder would be responsible for all design documents and specifications and providing you with fair market prices and competitively bidding the sub-contracts." In the situation that you described, it still seems to me that the contractor can easily inflate prices, yes? How do I negotiate in a design - build situation?

    I should note that I am presently working in a design - build situation where the designer is independent, but works with the builder. I pay the designer directly (fixed price) and I own the documents. I do not have a contract with this builder, because, in his process, he introduces his designer and the client works with the designer until the plan gets to the point of "hard quarters" -- not final design with all the specs, but a final "I like the floorplan, outside elevations, etc".

    Thanks again.

  • 16 years ago

    dallasauburn,

    I can only say that he was introduced to us by some close friends a few years before we built our house. We had him help with building our shop first, my Dh did some of the work himself but the builder did the framing, etc. We told him we were thinking of building in '08 so he offered to show us homes he had built. We already knew of his reputation in the area but we didn't actually hire him until a couple years later. So I guess my answer is we got to know him, his work, and his ethics before we hired him. He started our build in Sept.'08 and we moved in March'09; we only had very minor problems along the way and came in ON budget. I have said this many times; communication is key, we never had to worry that he was "ripping us off" or that he or his subs lacked knowledge or any issues with quality. Don't know what else to say!