Mondo is 100% correct. His techniques are basically the same techniques I have developed over the years on my own. KERDI is a great product as well as some of the other Schluter products but the use of KERDI in a shower 100% is a bit problematic and time consuming.

I too combine KERDI with RedGard or Mapei's HPG waterproofing. Been doing this for years now with not a single issue.

I would also be using the Laticrete products Mondo mentions but they just aren't that readily available in my area. I have told this to Henry more than once but still availibilty is limited and distant.

No reason to buy the KERDI Book when everything in the book is available on line for free. Simply follow the instructions found at the Schluter website and you can't go wrong.

I think Mongo's thread is great. The little steps and close up pictures is what I like the best. I find comfort recommending Mongo's post as the information was provided by a master setter for free.

I like the finer points and close ups -his thread and instructions show a more challenging installation and also show a more upscale renovation versus a basic tub surround or standard shower.

Don't forget to read all the steps in the thread and heed all the advice given. Installing Kerdi is a step by step process and you only get once chance to do it right.

"Water proofing your shower is not some thing you can almost do perfect. When it's perfect. It's good enough." - John Whipple

I think that when Schluter makes the Kerdi Board available here it will greatly simplify the construction of a Kerdi shower.

I built a Kerdi shower about 5 years ago, just before JB came out with the ebook. It was a bit of a learning curve, but I followed the tips on the John Bridge forum (this was also before Mongo's great instructional thread). I think that $10 on the ebook probably would have been money well spent though.

I agree. If you are going to install Kerdi in your new shower project then a serious training program should be started. If I was building my own steamer I would want to know I was good enough to do it.

Think about it. You are going to set all that tile, install your fixtures and glass panels. You are only go to do this once. If you plan to do it yourself take a workshop at Home Depot. Call Schulter and find the next class offered in your area. Don't practice a Kerdi install first on your home. And don't fool yourself into thinking that the 'dude' at the Box Store is a tile expert.

There is always scrap. Measure the job and use your offcuts to do a test "BOX". Look up the "Kerdi Box" and make your own. Flood test it first.

This takes two days - Cheap insurance if your thin set is old and would have failed. Cheap insurance if you didn't overlap right the first time. Cheap insurance if you find it takes 20 minutes per corner and you mixed all your mud at once....

Educate yourself before running out for a roll of Kerdi. Down load one E Book or two. Take a course. Study and cross check. What do the local tile experts in your town use?

I have used Kerdi for a long time and have no intention of stopping. I save the product for our highest end user - these showers are mostly steamers. I have used it before and often scheduling is a factor. The ability to set and tile in one day is nice and this premium feature often makes scheduling easier and off sets the increased price per square foot.

With in these bathroom pages I find mostly homeowners looking for help on their bathrooms - Most homeowners I think are more comfortable with a paint roller and a brush over mixing up a 25 lb bag of non modified thin set.

A Kerdi instal here in Vancouver right now today is about $3.00 a square foot at the local Box outlets. Many tile showrooms sell the product for less but often accounts are needed in these stores. This $3.00 a square foot is just the cost of materials not installation.

If you want to try either Kerdi or Hydro Ban I have lots of both at my home. Track me down and arrange a time to come over - I'll set up some material and give you guidance. Make a Kerdi Box and a Hydro Ban Box.

You tell us which you like better. For the record we 'will' install both but prefer to install a Liquid membrane. In fact I have some interesting testing going on with Kerdi as we speak.

The Kerdi board looks really good. This does make their product more appealing - this all comes at a cost and the total budget needs to be considered. I have some great ideas for kerdi board. I still have not touched it but did have my local Schulter rep through my home and he pointed out all the places I could use and test their new Kerdi Board.

Considering how much more the Kerdi-board will be, it's a waste of money, unless you're a contractor doing a project where time is of the essence and you have alot of tubs or showers to do, like an apartment building or hotel. Other than that, you'll do just as well to either use the roll of KErdi membrane and the drain, or even leave the Kerdi membrane and replace it with a product like Laticrete's Hydroban, and use that instead in conjunction with the Kerdi drain. Either way, you're going to pay a whole lot of unnecessary dollars for the Kerdi Board.

Bill.

How long does it take you to do a full Kerdi Shower? How long for that same shower in Hydro Ban?

I'm slow installing Kerdi - this is no secret. I'm slow installing tile - I'm a perfectionist. On average I can set between 25 - 60 square feet a day depending on the tile or type of stone.

It takes me about 6 hours to do a full shower surround with a couple of shampoo niches and a ceiling. This includes set up and breakdown.

It takes me about 2 hours to do the same with Hydro Ban and this is over two days.

At a conservative labour rate of $50.00 per hour that is a savings of $200.00 plus an additional savings of about $180.00 in material.

$380.00 savings just there. With say 80 - 100 square feet of tile you could get your tile and waterproofing for the same price as just Kerdi installed.

But I'm slow. I don't work the tile tools every day. My setter makes short work of these installs and only charges me about $1.25 per square foot for installation. But this is plain jane installation. 3 walls no niche no ceiling.

What is your track record Bill?

Lets just say it doesn't take me quite a long o the Kerdi, and just about as long on the Hydroban.

Now, let me ask you-- what's the point of your post? Are you arguing for or against the Kerdi Board? You don't have to convince me of the savings using Hydroban over Kerdi (unless it's a steam shower). But this conversation is not for this forum. This is for the deep end over at Johns.

My point of this discussion is that time and time again you read posts with people struggling with a Kerdi install. I have not come across any at all I think in regards to a liquid membrane.

Every one is so hyped up about this Kerdi product people are not seeing the forest through the trees.

For an average home owner (and I think this is where we have mostly average home owners) I believe that a liquid approach is best. The point of my post is to educate people so they understand that there is more to this than watching HGTV or downloading an E Book.

If people take the time to read and weigh both products I think more people will choose to save money and roll on their waterproofing.

My content is not welcome on John's site. I have been banned for life.

I am banned for the record because I started a thread on curbless showers and posted pictures of work not my own (with permission of course) and this did not sit well. I received permission from John himself but something behind close doors happened and then John sent me an email that sounded more like my Dad scolding me.

I posted an apology thread and the crew there deleted it. This was the final straw and left a bad taste in my mouth.

I also got banned here. It seems you can't send people off site or advertise your business or business name. I understand the rules now and have removed any mention of my company name and will not link to my business site from these pages again.

Why do I help? What's in it for me? Easy - I help because that is what I do. I also coach soccer. I also coach T-Ball. I raise money for cancer. Help out when I can at my daughters school. Etc. We can all do more.

Of course I'm not a saint and with my hard work I get a lot of calls. Mostly from people here in Vancouver but I have helped people state side as well. People ask my help. People ask me to check on their guy. I give my opinion and that is of a Master Finishing Contractor that specializes in curbless showers, bathrooms and fireplace projects. This is what I'm best at.

With every new problem my scope of knowledge grows. Here within these pages I can draw upon your expertise Bill and Bud's and Mongo's. I can share my installs and my trouble shooting with you. We can help teach each other and in doing so set ourselves apart from the rest.

No Rocket Science here. Just good Karma.

I miss the debates and the discussions at JB's and wish I controlled my actions and not posted a thread called "How do I deleted my JB account?" This was silly of me. I have mentioned to a moderator that I would like to view the pages and I thought he fixed it for me. I re logged in with my old username and was re banned.

I have strong opinions on Box outlets and marketing machines. I ask you this.

"Why is it that you can go into a Box Outlet and purchase items for your home that if inspected the material would fail?" Is this right??? No No No

Fair...

I mentioned the Kerdi Board, because I can see the advantage of it to me as a DIYer. It may cost more, but if it saves me time, and ensures a watertight shower, it could be worth it. I figure that I am already saving lots of money by DIYing. I can see that it wouldn't have much advantage to a professional.

My point of this discussion is that time and time again you read posts with people struggling with a Kerdi install. I have not come across any at all I think in regards to a liquid membrane.

That had absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making in the post just before yours. Again, John, if you're trying to sell me on the Hydroban, you're preaching to the choir. Talk to Henry, and he'll tell you. My point was that the Kerdi BOARD, is a waste of money that need not be spent to get the very same results.

Terricks, being that you know this, and you're going into it with open eyes, means you've made an informed choice-- not someone going and buying it because it's the latest and greatest thing (i.e.-- buying into the hype).

Bill I am not trying to sell you on Hydro Ban. I'm sure you use both and prefer one a little more than the other.

If someone really wanted to put Kerdi in there shower and do their own waterproofing and could afford this new kerdi board - I think this is much safer than having them board and then kerdi.

The more fool proof and simpler the process the better the odds of a Perfect Instal.

Perhaps for you this is crazy talk because you can do these steps with ease. You have performed them many many times and are a master setter.

What about Fred down the street. The 52 year old banker and his bride of 30 years. He has a 12 volt cordless and jig saw in the garage and their current bathtub surround has failed because it was a spec'd 5 years ago with just dry wall and mastic. Fred's a banker like I said and build a deck last year and now is not so sure about forking out all this money for a bathroom that is only 5 years old. How hard can it be? They do it every night on TV?

Fred's deck squeaks and it heaved this past winter - but waterproofing is easier! Right? What could go wrong with a slow leak behind your walls or under your tiled shower floor???

Hey John, I do prefer the Hydroban, but you're really putting me in a position here where I feel the need to defend Kerdi. How about I go through this forum, and pick out a couple dozen people who've SUCCESSFULLY used it, with no prior experience, and no info other than watching the video, and talking to me or Mongo?

I'll save you some leg work Bill. I've done it twice! And I'm not a banker like good ol' Fred is.

For those that are using Hydroban with a kerdi shower drain, where do do you the transition from kerdi to hydroban?

Thanks,

Chris

Defending Kerdi is not in question and not the point. I know people use it with great success. The shear make up of Kerdi's design make it durable and dependable.

Lets do a test. A "Mad Science Project". I will help out some people here in Vancouver waterproof 3 test boxes each. One kerdi, One Redguard or Mapei and one Hydro Ban. I will test 4 age groups (Kids, 20's, 40's, 60's). I will provide step by step training to all and will post my findings. I will then flood test these boxes and lets see how they do.

The proof is in the pudding..... I'm on it. Stand by for testing....

John Whipple

"When it's perfect it's good enough."

You've got to be kidding. I'm done with this thread.

I hope Fred won't be one of the people you ask to do your test because he's probably biased towards Kerdi since he's seen it on tv and is considering using the product. Plus, he's a banker and we all know that you can't trust a banker.

Like I said before, I successfully built a Kerdi shower even before the great thread Mongo put together. It's not rocket science. I just mentioned the Kerdi Board, because as a DIYer, I think that it would have made the process even easier for me. I don't know where all of these Kerdi failures are.

Search "Kerdi Failures" "Kerdi not sticking" "How to keep Kerdi tight in corners" "first Kerdi installation" "Love kerdi" "Hate Kerdi"

Use the quotes ""

Search from Google Bing etc.

Reading these threads and these success stories explains the process more clearly and points out pit falls of first time installers. Taking the time to read these posts as well as studying the proper technique only furthers ones knowledge of the installation and potential pit falls.

"You only get one chance to waterproof your shower. It can't be almost perfect. When it's perfect. It's good enough."

John Whipple
North Vancouver

OK here is an update on the Free waterproofing course I'm offering in North Vancouver;

I posted on my Facebook Wall and not one person has responded to my request for free training! I have just posted an add on Craigs List and hope this has a better response rate than the 73 people who may or may not seen my wall feed.

I can't wait for this test. I'll get my three little girls involved in the process but should point out for the record that my eldest daughter has all ready completed one Hydro Ban shower! I helped...

I went undercover for some investigative reporting and disguised myself as a middle aged man, slightly overweight husband and father of three - and tried to ask the most basic questions to our Box Outlets "Tile Experts". I visited 5 stores yesterday and this is what advice I was give;

First Stop - My first stop. I was told concrete board is the best. Kerdi is the best but too expensive. I should buy non modified thinset and add a modifer, or buy a ready made bag of Versabond.

I was not told to waterproof and when I asked he suggested RedGuard but quickly showed me Omni Grip and if I use that I could skip the red Guard because Omni Grip has Mould Guard!

This fellow worked in the tile department and was a train wreck of information. To be fair to the store I should try again with a new "Tile Expert" on another day.

Second stop was Fontile not a box outlet but one of my suppliers. I asked the same question at Fontile's order desk and Ann gave me a weird look. She knows me!

Her advice is always solid and she suggest I pick between Kerdi and Mapei's roll on.

Good advice Ann.

Third stop. Centanni Tile - I walked into Centani tile and came when the office girl Gloria was out for lunch. Covering the phone was Accounts Payable. For the recored she is also the family business's daughter or sister depending on who you think really is running the show.

I was told that Gloria is the best person to ask but she suggested that I could use Hydro Ban.

- Good Answer - Solid advice and this is from the book keeper.

Fourth Stop - Box Store Number Two - What a surprise. In all the years I have been into these Box Outlets I have not really meet to many employees who know their stuff.

Other than strongly disagreeing with Fernado about sealers I was impressed about how fair and unbiased his views on Kerdi and Red Guard where.

Fernado gave me solid advice and explained things so I could understand them. I can be slow sometimes. :)...

Fifth stop - Box Store number Three - A real gem here. Couldn't find any help and waited and waited. Finally dude shows up and I ask him my questions and tells me it is so easy.

All I need is Green Board and some Mastic! The Green board is my waterproofing! I never knew...

What a joke.

Sixth stop - Box Store Number Four - Box Store Number Four - Again waited and there was no staff. I took 4 "Code 3" pages and me asking for the manager to get a department leader into the tile department.

A team leader suggested this. (for the record he did tell me ----- was the best person to talk too but he would try and help).

Hardi Board 1/4" as my backer. Un taped because I was going to tile it anyway!!!

No waterproofing because it's not needed.

Just that easy - pick the mortar I like and away I go.

He also told me that I might like to use 1/2" backer board if I need to build things out.

Great info after 45 minutes of waiting.

Seventh stop - Box number...

Unfortunately, everyone in the flooring sections of the local HD and Lowes know me. It's to the point now, that I can't go in there, without someone bringing a customer to me for technical advice. Atleast they know when to bow out and let someone who knows what they're talking about take over!

John - are you passing on the $200 labor savings to the customer? I doubt it as you'd still be working for wages and it'd be unusual for someone with that mentality to garner the knowledge you have.

Most setters are going to charge a set "fee" for a shower pan or per sq. foot of tile. If they do it faster they pocket more, if slower they make less. Just the business. Not a lot of TQM studies in the trades.

So for the consumer, it's just not a selling point. Cheaper material cost is something they get behind frequently.

Another problem I have , more of a reservation with these products is they are not "time tested" like 20 years real world tested like a mud job over tar paper. Don't get me wrong , I like these things, spec and use them all ( except the Laticrete) , just have that little feeling in the back of the mind like: Am I going to be the guy that touted polybutylene or GP siding. Those were "the latest and greatest" until they weren't 20 years later.

Another thing consumers need to be aware of with the liquid applied membranes is that strict thickness guidelines need to be followed for them to work and I rarely see enough of the stuff applied in the field by mechanics.

Another issue of concern is with hybrid methods. I'm sure you guys are all upstanding and care about you rep, but you are providing the warranty in these systems as the manuf. will only step up if you use the complete system. That's fine as long as the end user is aware of this.

antss-- I've known the brass at Laticrete and worked with them literally for decades. I've seen more times than I can count where even in times where there was some question, they'd still stand behind their product. I don't just mean replacing the product that there was a problem with. I mean replacing the installation, including the labor to tear out and reinstall. I just said this in another thread earlier in the week. I've yet to run across any other company of ANY kind in this industry that'll stand behind their product like Laticrete does. It's for that reason, that when they make promises on their products, I won't question it, because I know if there's a problem, they'll back it up.

Alot of installers over at John Bridge's forum in the Pros hangout have been touting a twist on the Kerdi showers, using Schluter's drain with Hydroban. I had a chance to try it a few weeks ago, but before I did, I was a little concerned about the warranty, being I was using Schluter's drain. I called Henry Rothberg-- the vice president of the company-- and asked him directly if he'd be willing to warranty such an installation, and his reply was that being they don't make a drain to go with their waterproofing system, that he's absolutely stand behind it.

That's all I need to know. If you ever have any dealings with Henry, you'll find out his word is better than any written contract.

For those that are using Hydroban with a kerdi shower drain, where do do you the transition from kerdi to hydroban?

Thanks,

Chris

Hey Chris-- I'm sorry-- I missed your post. The Kerdi membrane is not used at all if you're using Hydroban. The only thing Schluter in the shower will be the drain, and then the Hydroban membrane is painted onto the halo of the drain, just as the Kerdi sheet membrane would be thinsetted to that same halo.

Thanks Bill,

As much as I like the Kerdi, I'd be open to trying hydroban or redguard . Seems like a pretty straightforward hybrid approach.

Chris

Chris, I specify using the Hydroban because I know for a fact that Laticrete will warranty it. I can't say the same thing for Custom with the Redgard.

It should be mentioned that your shower pan needs to be flood tested. I recommend 72 hours. 24 at the least.

You can use a 2" test plug found at most plumbing wholesalers and some Box stores.

Do some more research. These tests are needed.

Is all this even overkill? What is wrong with a vapor barrier and durock (or similar)? Why would a plain durock system be inferior? Not to play the devils advocate, but why the extra expense? I am getting estimates, and have close friends with 30 plus years bathroom renovation work say they have never had issues and still do the poly barrier and durock system. They started their careers using mud on floor and walls and setting tiles into that. The majority of bathrooms will be gutted anyways over time as colors and tastes change...or the next guy moves in and says..."yuk, who picked these tiles? These prior owners had bad taste."

It's a step better to put the membrane on the top highest plane right next to the thinset tile.

The guys you know must have had good weepholes, good slopes and good cement. And luckily nobody ever let urine get into the grout or down into the weepholes, or at least not for long.

I'm all for these membranes. Not just the Orange membrane. All the other ones.

HTH

I just ran across this post and since Johnfwhipple seemed to indicate he was willing to help people, I emailed then phoned him and found him very willing to answer my questions and point me in the right direction for things. It's nice that there are professionals that will give advice without getting any money out of it. Thanks John.