You're going to want more space between the fridge and the sink. As is, you can stand at the sink or you can open the fridge but not both at the same time. Try to put 24 to 30" between them.

I forsee a front door/laundry door issue and I would personally rather have a door to a pantry. Especially because people could look right into the pantry through the window. I know my pantry is rarely tidy enough that I would want that.
You also have a good bit of hallway space. Even if you just lined a wall or two with some book shelves or cupboards that would make that space a little less wasted.

I looked at your earlier post -- I think Nanny2's plan should be your starting point -- (it looks mostly you wanted to flip kitchen and dining location).

Currently you have a room-sized hallway; bathroom fixtures that do not share a plumbing wall; plumbing fixtures on an outside wall; window over a toilet. I think all of this worked out better on Nanny2's plan. (Please excuse the rude tone -- I just couldn't think of how to say it better.)

I agree with the prior posts about the refrigerator, laundry room door, and door-less pantry.

Hi Cedar,

I recall your plan from before and you've definitely improved it a whole lot! I think you're almost there but meldy and chelsea are both right about things that need a little tweaking.

As I read it tho, the door beside the laundry is not the "front door" but is a family entrance so having the laundry there doesn't strike me as quite as big an issue as it would be if that were the door guests would be entering and leaving from.

Since you also have a set of patio doors opening into your kitchen, you might consider whether you even need that secondary door by the laundry. Losing it could gain you a much nicer laundry area since that hall area could become part of the laundry.

Assuming that you do want to keep that door tho, I played around with your plan to see if I couldn't incorporate some of the excess hallway space into more useable room space. Wound up swapping your guest bath and laundry, and rearranging your master bath to give you a much larger bedroom and making your masterbath plenty large enough for wheelchair access. Plus the laundry room now has little floor space to sort laundry - and shut the door on it if unexpected guests arrive. I just tucked the linen closet space into the laundry and personally would make it a cabinet or even open shelves instead of a "closet" because cabinet walls and doors take up less space than closet walls and closet doors. BTW - you could easily have an opening by the sink in your bathroom to toss dirty cloths into and have them land in a hamper that was in the linen closet in the laundry room. (I'm nothing if not lazy when it comes to toting laundry around. LOL!)

The trade-off in my design tho is that the guest powder-room is now much smaller... the size and shape of a powder-room that you might find tucked under a staircase. It's usable, but certainly not luxurious. And, any guest who was wheelchair bound would have to be allowed access to the masterbath instead. For me, that would not be a problem but you might not like it.

You'll notice I also did a little tweaking on your kitchen, mostly just pushing the fridge a little farther from the sink and adjusting the location of the kitchen island so you have a little more room around it. I think you had snugged the fridge up close to the sink b/c you were concerned there wouldn't be enough room to open the fridge door without bumping into the island. But, since you had way more room than necessary between the island and the patio doors, it seemed to me that a better solution would be to to move the island 8 to 12 inches closer to the patio doors and an equal distance closer to the dining area and pantry.

The pink circle by the living room is because I'm a little concerned that the opening here is too narrow. It should be at least 3 ft but you could easily fix any problem by making this section of built in bookcases a little narrower.

Oh, two other very minor tweaks:

I switched the direction your front door swings so that when you open the front door to guests, they step toward the living area after greeting you instead of having to step toward a closet and then step around you and the front door to enter the living room. Consider if sibling and spouse and their three kids came to visit and you're at the door hugging everybody as they come in. Guest #1 has to get out of the way to allow guest #2 to be greeted. by the time you get to guest #3 and #4, you've got a traffic jam and guest #5 is still standing on the porch in the cold. LOL! Besides, with the door at that side of the porch, it just feels to me like it should swing that direction.

Of course, changing the side the front door is hinged on necessitates using a different kind of closet door so the two don't bump into each other. Unless you absolutely hate them, I think a bi-fold would work for the closet and wouldn't be in the way of the front door even if it was left partially open.

My only other tweak was to move your outdoor shower into the corner and away from your bar-b-que. Having it near the bathroom and laundry means running less piping to reach it and therefore less cost. Plus, in the corner, it would be a little bit protected from wind and could be used even while someone else was bar-b-quing without worrying about splashing the food.

p.s. I too would put a door on the pantry but then, NO ONE ever gets to look in my cluttered and overstuffed pantry.

Thank you all for your insights/suggestions.

and Bevangel, Thanks so much for your suggestions and taking the time to show your revisions. I appreciate your taking the time to do that. They are good suggestions. I don't mind the smaller (longer) power room. And you are correct in that the door at the laundry location is not an everyday door... convenient for taking clothes out to the line.

all that being said... i did take other's suggestions about centralizing the plumbing... my attempt shown below. Not sure about the laundry now in the bedroom vicinity

Again thank you all for your help..... I feel like I'm getting closer... but not quite there yet.

One question, someone commented about the toilet being under a window... pardon my being naive, but why is that considered.... hmmm... bad?

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Why putting a window over a toilet is usually not done:

Toilets, and all plumbing, have to have a "vent stack" which allows air to enter and sewer gasses to escape. The vent stack usually goes to the roof but it may be vented under the eaves in places where snow build-up might block a roof vent. Without a vent stack when you tried to flush, water and waste would not go down because of the air pressure differential inside the pipe and outside the pipe.

It is kind of like when you put your finger on the tip of a straw that is in a cup of liquid and lift the straw out. The liquid in the straw can't flow downward and out because as soon as it starts to do so, a zone of low pressure is created inside the straw. The air pressure outside the straw pushing the water up is greater than the air pressure inside the straw plus gravity so the water stays in the straw. As soon as you release your finger, the liquid falls. Not having a vent stack is like having your finger on the top of the straw.

So, you have to have a vent stack and it is usually put into the wall behind the toilet because that is a convenient spot. And, you can't have a vent stack running thru a window so usually people don't put a window on the wall behind the toilet. But, all that said, you don't HAVE to put your vent stack in the wall directly behind the toilet. The vent stack just needs to be near the toilet (I think code is something like within 5 ft.) So, if you want to put a window behind your toilet, you can, so long as you have another nearby wall where the vent stack can go.

Putting plumbing lines on outside walls is pretty much a no-no where the weather gets cold because you risk having the plumbing lines freeze.

Well.... I think this is it.... but would love to hear any comments. Again... thank you for your help-suggestions. Tried to get plumbing fixtures off from outside walls where possible... and although all fixtures don't share common walls... I'm hoping this will suffice. Never could get the pantry layout I liked to work... so changed that configuration. Thank you all, again.

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I don't think I would like that dining room and kitchen arrangement. Both areas are too long and skinny. I think you were closer before.

If the secondary door is really just a way to get laundry to/from the line, does that mean your clothesline is basically in the front yard? Not sure your neighbors will be real happy with that. Or, do you have a privacy fence that runs along that side of the property so that only the front porch is visible from the street.

Would it be possible to have your laundry line at the back (west) side of the house with a door leading in that direction instead. Then the secondary door you now have at the front could be turned into a window and maybe move the dining room there and keep the kitchen by the bbq porch.

Then, you could cluster both bathrooms and the laundry at the back side of the house. But, if your secondary door has to lead toward the front (east) side of the house, no point in playing with other possibilities.

What about the utility be 'within' the powder room? Still cover W/D with doors.

If you could move your laundry line to the backside of the house, what would you think of something like this?

It puts all the plumbing on inside walls except for the shower and it is made back to back with outdoor shower. That would make it easy to make that wall extra thick and give it extra insulation. If you live in an area that freezes, you would need to insulate the pipes for your outdoor shower anyway and back to back showers save on plumbing and drain costs. Most of the plumbing is clustered close to the back side of the house so you would have a minimum of roof vents showing on the front side.

This also allows the laundry room to have immediate access to the outdoors and be large enough to actually sort laundry in and be easily accessible from the kitchen but hidden from formal dinner guests or even folks sitting at the island.

Was able to keep the masterbath large enough for wheel-chair access including a roll-in shower and keep the extra square footage in the master bedroom. Guest bathroom is no longer miniscule. Plus, I hope you'll notice that the way the door to the guest bath situated and the toilet is located means that, even if someone leaves the guest bath door standing wide open, you don't have a sight-line to the toilet from anywhere in either the dining area OR the living room. Most of us find it disconcerting to look up while dining and find ourselves looking at a toilet. And some people are almost as bothered by a view of the toilet from the living room.

This arrangement also allows you to have a nice compact work triangle in the kitchen so you won't need roller skates to cook a meal. And with the range in the much enlarged island, you can get one of those really fancy island vet-hoods. Don't know how you feel about hi/low islands. Some folks love em, some hate em. But, with an the oven/cooktop located on the island, I think it needs to be a hi/low so as to separate guests who are sitting there from the heat of the stove. Plus, it kind of hides the mess if, like me, you tend to let pots boil over occasionally!

I noticed you had put in a secondary prep sink in your last draft, so I put one in as well. Having the second sink well removed from the main work triangle is nice if you're likely to have grandkids running in and out for drinks of water while you're trying to prep a meal. That stretch of cabinet with the prep sink would also work well as a serving area.

Couldn't find room for a pantry tho. Hopefully there would be enough storage space in the wall cabinets and the island - especially since you apparently will have a basement. I did stick in a narrow cabinet in the laundry room to store brooms and a mop. Without a pantry, those things tend to have a hard time finding a home!

I do believe this is the best design I can come up with for your footprint. I'm curious to know what you think about it.

While I thought my earlier plan from several weeks ago was a
significant improvement, I see you've revised your footprint again, apparently you're trying to stay within tight square foot restraints. In changing the kitchen/dining side of the house from 16' x 24" to 24' x 18' you've ended up with what I personally feel is a more awkward layout.

I thought having a walk-in pantry was one of your primary goals, yet in this revision, you lose it entirely. The second door in the kitchen/dining room serves no purpose that I can see, except to confuse people entering from the street as to which door to use.

I've been out of town visiting a client's new build, so have not been able to look at your revisions any closer. I will take a closer look later tonight and see if I can make any helpful suggestions.

One comment from your earlier plan - you DO NOT want to have your washer and dryer located in your master bedroom!

Bevangel,

I've been away, but just now took at look at your reply. Thank you for the time you've spent thinking and revising the posted plan. It's very nice you, and everyone else to take the time with your help and suggestions. I do appreciate it!

I like what you did with the laundry area, however where you've placed the exit door from that area, would not work as there is a drop off there (walk out basement)....I had tried a similar "room there", but it would have been the walk in pantry, which we've veered away from.

I'm liking our latest idea of having that big open space for the dining -cooking area. The new configuration, with the ell off the Greek Revival, is a typical New England layout.... and seems to work well for me. I'll probably change the double inswing doors by the fridge with a single door out to the screen porch, however, also adding double sliding french doors on the wall where the dining table is (and doing away with that single door to the right of that area).... so that wall has a lot of light (it faces south east) and those doors can be slid open to have a good breeze and connect with the exterior.

As far as the laundry area "being in the bedroom" (or near the bedroom), I don't anticipate a problem. I know others have recommended against it, but, that's where the dirty clothes are, and with the proper sound insulation, the area carved out for that function seems to work.

Hello... Would it be possible to add 2 feet to the dining room/ kitchen gable end? I think getting past the dining room and it's chairs is going to be tight.

I think that gable end is currently 18 feet. Could you make it twenty?

It is possible to tweek the small elements and relationships of a design plan until you have lost sight of the original big ideas. For instance in the current plan everything has shifted so that the stair is now blocking easy movement and good sight lines through the house.

I would ask the following questions even if they have been answered earlier.

Where are the major views? Lot size?

Are there any privacy issues?

What side faces a street?

Where will you park your car? How many? Where would guests park? Do you like looking at cars from the house?

What is upstairs? Is there a basement?

Do you want a separate dining room or not? What does your spouse think?

What is the climate/location?

How many family members and their ages?

Pets?

What is your preference regarding tubs and showers?

Where do you like to watch TV?

What are your hobbies?

How and when would you use the porches?

Do both of you cook often? Do you really want two sinks?

Do you care about high/cathedral ceilings?

Is your bed really a Double or is it a Queen?

Do you have strong architectural likes/dislikes?

Could we see the original architect's plans?

Vancleaveterry-that is one issue I'm thinking, increasing the width to 20'... I agree, another 2 feet I think would make a difference.

Mighty, thank you for your "list" - a good brain check for design intent.

I do appreciate (and listen) to all of your comments. In the end, everyone has their own needs and intent for what they do, design and how they live and what they live with.

I'm going with this final rendition, attached. After a lot of revisions and tinkering this plan should work well for us. I may increase the width of the kitchen (if financially feasible) by the 2 feet. The sliding french doors by the dining table face east .... and on the direct exterior of those doors will be a sitting area behind, and shaded by, a huge beach plum bush.

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Again, thank you all for your previous comments and help.

Instead of forcing everyone to walk through the hallway to get to another other room, I would try to create a more open connection between the major spaces.

Stairs are BIG improvement, IMO. Also the placement of second sink. And addition of fireplace?

Only suggestion would be place powder room door opposite bedroom door, to shield toilet from view. And maybe a pocket door or barn door for pantry to conflict with refrigerator door.

Congratulations on finalizing a plan that suits you! I know you worked on it for quite awhile but, if it makes you feel any better, I spent THREE SOLID YEARS on mine before I was satisfied. LOL! Of course we were waiting to begin building until we had paid off our land and retired the mortgage on our first home so I wasn't under any particular pressure to finish the design and, I swear, one can always find something to tweak. At some point, you just have to decide "that's it, no more tweaking!" Fortunately, now that we've begun building and I can actually walk around in real rooms - albeit, still without sheet-rock - I am totally satisfied with the layout and the way the rooms flow. So, I guess all the time spent designing and redesigning and re-redesigning was worth it!

Anyway, it looks like your kitchen and dining area will be nice and bright with those windows and patio doors on three sides. You're going to love that. And the nice big size of the combined rooms will also be perfect for family gatherings or parties where everyone always winds up in the kitchen anyway.

I think you've done well and I don't see any glaring issues with the design. Of course, there are some things I would change and I'm sure you'll hear from others about "tweaks" they would recommend. But you are absolutely right that everyone should design for their own needs and how they live.

Again, congratulations on completing the design stage and keep us posted on the build process. Trust me, that's when the "fun" really begins.

Mighty.... i've read many of your (wise) posts previously... but I believe this is the first time I've seen your work. Nice loose style. I like your layout, but due to our budget, I've a feeling your extra bump-out for the stairs would add a bit of cost. As far as "encouraging more connection between the open spaces".... I'm liking keeping the dining-cooking area a bit separate from the living room areas.

and Bevangel, you seem to always have a positive and encouraging point of view. I appreciate your kind comments and suggestions (and drawings you've posted). Good luck with your project.

My own project has been (well.....) interesting. And i'm still in the planning stages. This building stuff is not for the faint of heart. I can't say I'm totally enjoying the learning curve... but it is what it is... and from reading other posts on this forum.... one does seem to get through it all.

thanks again to all for the help.

If you like a bit of separation you can put a solid wall to the left of the stair and create a portal to the dining/kitchen space but the cost of the stair bump should be worth it to reduce family traffic through the living room and provide some privacy to the living room when people arrive at your front door.

In my opinion an entrance/stair hall would put the house in a different category for resale. Speaking of cost, deletion of the second sink in the kitchen and the shorter counter design would pay for most of the bump and would maintain the same work surface area. The bump also provides another element on the exterior to make the house more attractive.

If you keep your latest plan, I suggest you get the bath plumbing off the outside wall and use that wall for full sized windows, provide more space for dressers in the bedroom, and increase the coat closet space.

Good luck with the project.

I'd definitely sleep on the free architect's rendering for a week or two! It takes time to digest stuff. But I do like cedar32's final design too.

I'd like to see an elevation and the second floor.

Formal central stair hall, same number of foundation corners, 50 more s.f., windows in stairs up and down, simple facade, endless options for different trim styles.

Wow, I love Mighty's design. It has everything that Cedar's plan has but the flow is so logical and interesting. Not to take anything away from Cedar since you did a great layman's job.

Great transformation, Mighty - that small addition of square footage for a proper entry and stair configuration make a world of difference. Good design always allows for an adequate entry area so that people entering aren't plopped right into the living area with no separation. Having the pantry in the area of the kitchen that has the most utility is a time saving feature opposed to having it in the hall, and having a private toilet in the master bedroom, is, of course, always preferable. Significant improvements like this would greatly improve resale.

Mighty, I wanted to thank you for taking the time to do what you did. It is very attractive with a useful layout. I do like the stair configuration. On another note, I do enjoy your contributions to this forum.... so thanks for that, too.

Thank you again. I will keep all posted on our project.