curious - would this be an issue w/dual fuel (electric oven) or a range w/sep ignition for the oven/burners (American?).

Any ideas?

BTW, of course I heard from no one today...still waiting!

I placed a call to Wolf tech support tonight. They will get back to me next week after looking into this further. I asked about the "need" to run hood at a fairly high speed in order to light the burners during pre-heat. It shouldn't be necessary according to the tech support person. She is going to look into it further as well as some other questions re: the issues some of us have been experiencing, and get back to me. I also explained that there were no problems with the burners or the oven when the tech was here, so am hesitant to have service tech come back out. I'll report back when I hear something.

FWIW, the Wolf tech support person is as determined as we are (as she indicated to me) to figure out what is going on, and fix any problems.

I left a message with a repair service and they didn't call back. Plumorchard, I believe that the American ignition is similar to other brands. They seemed to light so fast that I did not see the other burners spark, but when my neighbor got it home we played with it and indeed when lighting one burner, the other burners spark too, it was just less noticeable. Thermador has a simmer burner on it's own circuit (the one that cycles on an off), but that's about it. Of course most of these ranges use a glow plug for the oven ignition.

I'm going in a different direction from here on in. I'm not accepting any more service calls on this range. The distributor has offered to push for a replacement for me. I didn't ask her to do this but it was her immediate suggestion when she saw the number of service calls in such a short time along with the fact that it's still not fixed. I've made it clear that I do not want another '07 given its issues and she agreed. She thought that the '08s were ready (or near to) and that that might be a better way to go. Of course, none of this is her decision entirely but at least she's on board. She was going to speak to someone at Wolf yesterday and I'm waiting to hear back some news. But the bottom line is, I'm all done with this range. Too many issues out of the box coupled with an unsolvable and debilitating design flaw make for an unwanted appliance.

Keep us posted on your progress - including how things are going with the distributor....

I am getting my appliances delivered Monday - including my 36" Wolf......and now I am very nervous....

I'd appreciate any insight on your dealings with the distributor as that was one of the decision criteria that drove me to Wolf in the first place.....the distributor is about 15 mins away from my home - it will be good to know how they deal with their customers....

Good luck with it all Dave.....

Marion K.

Good luck, Dave. It sounds like you've got someone there who is trying to resolve this for you. If anything comes out along the way re: the cause of the problems (e.g. design flaws, or bad parts, or....?), please pass them along.

The person with whom I've been dealing at Wolf tech support is doing some research on her end to try to figure out the cause of our pre-heat/burner/need for hood on high stuff, and will be getting back to me next week. I will pass along any info I receive as well.

Dave is probably sick of me by now, but here are some non pressure, flow related thoughts for others to try. I personally think the oxygen starvation theory is somewhat bogus. The gases venting from the oven are hot and are going to rise, not flow around the burners. Here is a simple test I tried on my rangetop's griddle vent. My rangetop has probably the same type of vent as the range except it is only the width of the griddle. We have the island trim package so it is right at burner level. I fired off the griddle and the heat streams up. Now here is the test. Light a match and hold it over the vent. Match goes out either because of lack or oxygen or because the vent gases steam out really fast and blow it out. There is a real updraft so I don't think anything is going to sink and flow around the burners. Now light another match and hold it right next to a burner. Does it of out? On my range top no, not even when when I hold it right next to the vent, but just out of the exhaust gas stream, over the griddle. No exhaust gases are flowing any where near the surface of the range. I can't believe a range with an oven is going to behave much differently. However, if the match does go out near the burner maybe things are different. Anyway a simple enough test.

OK, now we come to another hair-brained theory. If there is a leak in the oven vent between the top of the oven and the drip pans, we could have another story. Exhaust gas could be trapped in the cavity under the drip pans, and guess what goes on there. That's where the fuel gas is mixed with air. And if there is instead some or lots of CO2 to mix with instead of air, the burners are not going to work real well, if at all. And if there is a gap in the vent ducting that tends to close up as the range heats and things expand, one might have problems more during preheat. (Note the oven burner does not run more intensely during preheat.) A test would be to pull off the porcelain drip pans and see if you have the same problem. This might let more air in and allow the gases to escape. Not sure about this one.

capecodcook, I'm going to forward your address to the Wolf payroll department.

If only they would give as much thought to this as you are something might have been solved by now.

Honestly, thanks for all your help but I've retired from the hypothesis and test game.

Yeah, I figured you had, but thought someone else might want to take a pass at it. Must be the problem solving engineer in me, but this interests me. Almost makes me wish I had the AG range instead of the range top so I could try some of this stuff myself.

Maybe you could travel around and come check out all of ours :-)

alexr....hmmmm, I swear the guy at the distributor for American told me they were on sep ignitors - sounds like you are right though. The only other I know of is the Lacanche!

keitel - what is different with the 08 from 07. Curious, because if there is an issue (remember the kit?) wonder what changed that fixed it?
Let us know.

I have no idea what the difference is between 08 and 07, and so far, it's just a suggestion on her behalf. I'm assuming (and this is of course by no means a safe assumption) that they've improved this stupid problem. Who knows? I'll hopefully find out more tomorrow and keep you all in the loop.

capecodcook, you're more than welcome to come and test your theories on my range. Having said that, be careful what you wish for - next thing you know you can't roast beef and boil potatoes at the same time.

I have been following this thread with interest and concern. I am really sorry all of you are having this problem. First I was under the impression the only change to the 07 Wolf AG was in the oven door. (? not sure what I am talking about but easier to open) So if no other change why suddenly this problem?
I really want the wolf, not ready to order appliances yet but this has me really concerned.
Has anyone forwarded this thread to Wolf so they know in addition to the buyers having this issue there are potential buyers waiting to see?

You're right about the door. It's now hydraulic and won't free-fall open as it used to.

I don't know how to forward a thread - but it's a great idea.

Thanks Keitel, I don't know how to forward either. But I a 5 yr member and Wolf always came out on top. Now I am really leary until I hear the issue is resolved.

I posted some personal test results earlier since I have the luxury of having 2 ranges right now. Would someone PLEASE buy my house I am in right now so I can move to NH!

I think it is more than coincidental that I got very similar results on both the Bluestar (NH) and Wolf (CH)when using the burners with and with out oven preheating and hood on and not on. One thing I failed to mention is that when I have had the "dancing/lifting/incomplete flame on the Wolf when preheating the oven, it almost disappeared and seemed to burn relatively fine when a pot/pan was over the burner. Next, I am not HVAC expert but seems like poor gas flow would merely result in a low flame; not one that is lifting. Too much oxygen or CO2 seems like would cause a poor and yellow flame but not one that is incomplete and/or lifting. Also seems like if a flame is lifting, there is either some noncombustible pressure in the line or drafting that is interfering with the flame. Next thought, simple but VERY important for ignition is to make sure the burners are properly aligned with the igniter. On a Wolf, it is the thin slot in the burner ring; in the BS, it is the line of holes to the center of the burner. IN the Bluestar, you really have no choice since the burners won't simply spin around like the Wlf. However, if this is not properly aligned with the igniter AND you have drafting issues with a preheating oven, then the burner may not light at all.

I cannot be sure but I have had my Wolf for about 5 years now and have experienced the issues cited here but have found simple remedies. Both Wolf and Bluestar are the bomb!

My range has deteriorated to the point now that every single time the oven is on (i.e. preheating, firing up to temp after preheat, or just sitting at temp not firing) my burners do not behave properly. They work perfectly and beautifully when the oven is not on. It has nothing to do with the way things are lined up.

I spoke to the distributor today and agreed to accept one more service call from the best service company she knows of who will be driving an hour here to have a look.

It has without a doubt gotten worse over time, and by time I'm talking about a range that's only been installed for 3.5 months.

Very, very disappointing.

I'm so sorry to hear that your range continues to have problems. There definitely has to be something wrong with your range, no one else seems to have the issues that you do--yours go far beyond preheat. I wonder if their telling you to run the broiler for 4 hours (or whatever ridiculous amount of time it was) caused some internal damage.

I had a new Miele dishwasher that was acting very odd. They tried very hard to fix it, until I just couldn't take it any more. After the 5th service call, I called and said that I had been more than patient but I had had enough. They replaced the dishwasher. I really hope the same happens for you.

I've had my '06 Wolf for a year (this month) and it's never given me a lick of trouble. I really hope you just have a dud.

I'm still waiting for a call back from Wolf tech support, but I now she'll call sometime this week.

One of the burners (front left) has now for a second time, had trouble staying lit, or fully lit when I turned down the burner to simmer with the oven on (well after pre-heat was completed). Of course, I'm sure it will never do that when svce is here (hasn't yet!).

Also, I didn't mention this earlier (forgot to post it), but Friday night, and again tonight, the tile on the wall above the range was covered in moisture/condensation during/after(?) pre-heating the oven. I don't think it's happened before. If it did, I hadn't noticed it 'til now. What could be the cause of that? I did mention it to Wolf BTW the other day.

I too am still waiting for a response back. I talked to the dealer yesterday and he has written (paper trail) to his rep at Wolf who has escalated to the Service Mgr. for the distributor. (I have talked to him before and he was helpful) Anyway, they are working on getting someone else out here, "the best" they say.

I will let you know. Again, this weekend, click, click, click. My burners never work right during preheat either.

re-condensation on tile. Mine steams up every time we preheat. The island vent is throwing all that hot air out and I see it. It is gone in a short time though. I'm thinking it is normal.

Re: condensation. A major product of combustion is water vapor. Now that it is a little cooler maybe it condenses more readily on the tiles. This is probably normal.

Breezy, as far as Wolf burner orientation is concerned, on my rangetop it make no difference whatsoever. The groove can be aligned with the igniter or half way around and the burners ignite instantly in either case. The Wolf manual also says orientation makes no difference. If you look at how the Wolf burner ignites, the igniter sparks to the inner burner, lighting it. No spark goes the outer burner. Gas is fed into the groove from underneath which is ignited by the inner burner and this flame ignites the outer ring. Since the inner ring is lit all around it will lite off the groove from any position.

DH thinks much the same thing re: condensation, wall is colder than it has been so far this year, etc. If it's normal, I'm okay with that (as long as it doesn't harm the tile or grout it's no big deal).

As for the burner not wanting to stay lit (or fully lit) on simmer that could be annoying. I purposely wanted a range that could simmer equally on all burners, so I don't want to avoid that burner for simmering.....

keitel, Do the burners act the same with pans on them?

Yeah, I thought of that too. When it was first installed, the installer used a pan to test each burner because he said it made a difference and it did in terms of a quicker, cleaner light.

It doesn't make a difference anymore. They do the same thing with or without a pan, with or without the hood on, and with the oven on in ANY capacity (although I'm not too sure about broil nor do I care).

HMMM...Sorry for your troubles. I hope you get it fixed bc I have been completely happy with mine. It is just so odd bc these are not complex units when it comes down to it - ignition, gas and POOF! fire.

Let us know what the resolution is and best wishes for a happy outcome. Everyone deserves a good experience after such a major purchase. SZ/Wolf are VERY protective of their image so i am sure they will make it right.

B:)

Hey plum and cat,

Any updates? All quiet the last few days on the Wolf front. I've got my "hot-shot-from-the-big-city" service call on Monday. Did either of you hear anything from anybody?

Nothing new here Dave, I've been wondering about you guys, too. I called the Wolf tech with whom I'd been speaking yesterday, but she was out. If I don't hear back from her early next week, I'll try her again. I also want to let her know that besides the burners being temperamental during pre-heat, the small burner ring on the one front burner for a second time since Sept., had trouble remaining or being fully lit when I turned it down to simmer with the oven going (well after pre-heat). It took a bunch of tries before more than just a few holes on that ring would light or stay lit at simmer. I even did the blowing on the rings trick!

Is the hot-shot going to actually work on your range, or just come to authorize the exchange?

Slightly OT, but those black enamel burner pans are a b**ch to remove burnt on grease/stuff. Our cleaning lady is afraid to touch the range, and frankly, we'd rather she didn't anyway (less risk of damage!), so I get to have all the fun!

I've already given up on the burnt-on grease stains.

The hot-shot is going to work on it apparently. I've come to expect that that means he'll show up, see the problem, and tell me he'll have to order parts and come back and I'll have to screw around with my schedule for the 1000th time to have him back.

Am I getting cynical? Perhaps.

And my inner burner ring rarely ever works with the oven on. We're now having identical problems.

Ooh, maybe if everyone gives up on the burnt on stains, people will come to expect that's how the ranges are supposed to look (stained!) and we can give up cleaning the tops altogether--LOL!

Did you suggest that the hot-shot bring any and all possible parts for a fix? Maybe all new "guts?" At least they seem committed to figuring this stuff out......

On our range, only the one small ring does it, and only when I attempt to go down to simmer, and it's only done it twice so far, so I'm going to try to remain hopeful that it's not as far gone as yours (although it does seem to be heading down that same path....are you sure you're not putting a hex on mine whenever I read your posts...?)

I am still waiting for follow up too. Nothing new...

Well, I had my service call today from a legitimately authorized Wolf technician. These are the tools he used to fix my $5000 range:

duct tape
caulking

No, really. The theory is that gas is escaping from the oven and building up beneath the burners. He taped some holes shut and caulked the rest hoping to stop air flow. He thought that after that the burners were working properly. I pointed out that while on high none of the inner rings were totally lit. He told me that that was normal? while the oven was being used and it was the best I could expect. Even if it is fixed, doesn't this seem pretty temporary? Caulking all over the inside and back of my range? I honestly bought this thing (perhaps naively) thinking it could last me 25 years.

So, fast forward a few hours and I'm currently preheating my oven and tried the burners out a few times. It took me about 5 lights to get a clicking and then another burner that only half-lit.

I phoned the distributor and I am now OFFICIALLY DONE.

I've been working on dinner for the past few minutes and yeah, while the oven's on only one burner of four works on simmer. The rest are 1/4 lit and clicking or not lit at all.

In all honesty, I could not recommend this range to anyone at all. It's pathetic.

Will the distributor replace it with another one for you? I know you'd mentioned that earlier in the thread as something they planned to do.

Ours isn't as bad as yours (ptooey, ptooey; hey, I'm superstitious!) so I wonder if yours is just a lemon? Not too many people have chimed in with the same or similar complaint besides Plumorchard and me which leads me to believe that it is not that widespread a problem. Surely we'd have read more of the same on GW....

I had a msg on my ans machine today from the person at Wolf with whom I've been speaking. She said that what I am experiencing on my range is NOT normal and called the service co on our behalf. They are going to try to arrange for a service tech to come out again, and get the Wolf tech line on the phone while he (or she) is here in my home. That won't be 'til later in the week or next week I think, but I will be sure to keeep you posted.

I hope the distributor is able to resolve your problem with the range to your satisfaction and I hope we can figure out why mine is being "temperamental." It'll be interesting to hear what both the service co and Wolf tech support have to say during the same "conversation."

Oh, that is so sad! I am so sorry for you. I would definitely go down the replacement road.

I can tell you, there will be no duct tape and caulk here, if that is the solution then there is a serious problem. It just can't be!

keitel, I do not blame you for being very upset. Since this is the range of my choice I continue to follow this thread. Do you think you got a lemon or Wolf is becoming inferior? Will you accept a Wolf replacement? Because of this thread I have started looking at other ranges. No bluestar to be seen/available in our area. I do wonder if it has to do with distributors as I was told in two places we did carry them but had too many problems, yet they seen very highly thought of here. One of the places also said the same thing about DCS. I am anxious to see the final outcome on these affected ranges.

I'm going to do a poll of 07 AG owners to see if it is a lemon or not.

Waiting to see what Wolf says. In the meantime, I have honestly been thinking about Viking. Is that crazy?

keitel - aren't you the one who's broiler originally had wires that started smouldering? It sounds like you just ended up with a lemon. Going from a Wolf to a Viking is like going from the frying pan into the fire :-). If I were you I'd either let them give you a replacement range or else look at Bluestar, DCS, or Capital. Good luck.

I hope on your poll we hear from everyone that has an 07 model with good or problems.

Dave.....

I will keep you posted on what happens with mine....it is sitting in my kitchen waiting for the gas line to be done and for the countertop/backsplash to be installed. Should have it in working order in about 2 weeks.....hopefully (knock on wood) I won't be experiencing what you have been seeing....

Marion K.

Yeah, I'm the smouldering wire guy. I'm hoping it's a lemon. So far, it's needed a thermostat replacement (was off by an even 25 degrees) and had 8 weeks of smouldering plastic and now this. All told it's required 8 visits plus 2 from a gas-fitter to see if was a gas issue.

10 times I've screwed with my schedule and let people into my house in less than 4 months. And I bought it based on its solid reputation. Ah, the irony.

Gee Keitel, Viking?.. I know from personal experience that the Bluestar range works great and there is no black painted top that grease burns onto. It's all porcelain cast iron on top. The burners are amazing. My oven will go hotter than 500 degrees and the infra-red broiler works great. If you want sealed burners the Capital and American might have a nicer feel and look than the Bluestar and have a stainless top.

I'm just thinking about Viking because I want open burners and I'm having enough trouble getting decent service on a Wolf, let alone a Bluestar which no one within 100 miles of me will have ever seen. And please, before anyone chimes in about how it's just a simple machine that anyone can easily work on, read over my threads about this Wolf and tread lightly ;-)

At least I could buy the Viking locally and I believe that would make servicing easier too. But, I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's just see what I hear back from the distributor (nothing yet).

Don't forget, Breezy saw the same lifting flame issue on the his/her Bluestar during preheat. So I wonder if a little bit of this is just the nature of the an all gas range. Most people don't notice it because it's a timing thing, or they have their hood on.

Your issues seem to be extreme, unfortunately. I really hope you get resolution quickly. If you get a new all gas range, my advice is to find a place to cook on it first, just to make sure... Maybe a dual fuel instead?

Remember though, the lifting/uneven flame I discussed was not NEARLY as serious a keitel's and was easily remedied by turning on the vent fan or placing a pan over the burner. Sounds like keitel really got a lemon. Wolf is a great product but every manufacturer has a slip once in a while.

I agree that keitel has been more than patient and I would be done by now too.

Breezy,

You'll notice that I did say that Dave's issue seemed extreme. I was just pointing out to him that if he goes to another range, he may still see a lifting flame. He may want to find a working model of the next range brand he switches to, just so he knows exactly what to expect.

If I run my Wolf burner during preheat WITHOUT a pan on the burner, I do see the lifting flame. But only without a pan, it goes away when the pan is in place. I only noticed it once Dave started posting about his issues and I started playing with the burners during preheat. Since I only see the lifting flame without a pan/pot, and I never cook without a pan/pot, it doesn't bother me.

This whole thing has me puzzled. My range is not much older than the people posting and I've never experienced any of the partially lit-clicking issues that are being discussed. I wonder if Wolf changed something when they changed the oven door design, or if my 22" griddle changes something about my internal setup.

I did miss that but I just wanted to be clear. Mine is 5 yrs old and I noticed the irregular flame long ago but did not put it with the preheat until just before these postings. I also learned through these posts that turning the hood on seems to eliminate the problem on the Wolf and the BS. And, as you stated, putting a pan over the burner has always worked for me.

Seems very odd to me as well but there are several others with similar issues. I will say that the irregular flame issue on the BS is not as noticeable as on the Wolf. I am sure Wolf will get it corrected b/c they are a solid company. We have loved ours but went with the BS this time b/c of the 22K burners and the ability to custom configure the rangetop.

I posted a video in this thread...
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg1009210725505.html?150

towards the bottom

and we started another thread to continue -below

Here is a link that might be useful: continued

Please don't minimize this for us. My hood is ALWAYS on before I try to light the burners. I can't use 2 of my 4 burners on low or simmer when the oven is on, with or without a pan. They just keep clicking. On high, my burners consistently half-light when the oven is on. These are simply not things I'm willing to accept. If that's something that you'd be willing to accept from a $5 000 range than so be it. As far as I'm concerned, complacency on an issue like this will just breed mediocrity in a company who is assumed by many to be the best.

I hope that wasn't directed at me. I never intended to minimize your situation. I too would be LIVID. When you pay as much just for a range that most pay for all their kitchen appliances total, you should expect and absolutely deserve the very best.

Sorry if you thought I was making light of your delimma.

:)

Dave, come on, no one here has minimized this. If anything, everyone has gone out of their way to sympathize with you and acknowledge your issue.

I know you are upset, and I would be to, but I really think you were overreacting to either mine or Breezy's post--or both.