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honey1_gw

Job site theft

15 years ago

We are about to begin our new construction. If we carry the construction loan, are we responsible for job site theft? That has been going on a lot in our area with new builds. We haven't signed the contract yet...we've narrowed it down to two builders, and we haven't asked each the question, either. I wanted to get a feel for the answer here, first. Our architect is reviewing the two contracts and there's nothing that addresses theft. I think we should have something, hopefully in our favor, pertaining to theft.

One more thing...Since we are carrying the loan, I am trying to list EVERYTHING I can possibly think of on the spec sheets to be included in the contract. Good idea? Does anyone have an example to share of a completed or nearly completed list? I would greatly appreciate any help. We don't want any change orders. Builder x charges 22% of the total cost of a change. Is that average? We will ask that to be lowered just in case. Builder Y hasn't specifed...yet. I don't want to seem picky, but we're talking about a big chunk of money. We don't want to have to put out anything extra.

I guess there's one more tiny question. Builder x only wants his punch list to not exceed $1000. He's trustworthy, but what if we have a disagreement down the road? He'll walk away and tackle the next project. Right?They're not really builing around here but a lot or renovations are going on. Anyhoo, what's a good percentage to make sure we get the job done? Thanks so much for any advice. We've built before, but we've never carried the construction loan. It causes a bit more anxiety.

Comments (19)

  • 15 years ago

    I'll answer the questions I can...
    1) Insurance, this needs to be addressed in the agreement. I would require him to carry it, and to cover the deductible if something happens. He will be there everyday, not you, and is in a better position to prevent and promptly report theft.
    2) 22% is high.
    3) Yes, list everything in the specs sheets. Right down to the model numbers of the faucets.
    4) The punch list should not be limited in dollar value, in fact, the amount you hold back should be at least 5% of the total build cost. If it is $1000 there is no incentive for him to return. You need the amount to be higher than the punch list could possibly be.

    And have an attorney look at the agreement, and architect may be familiar with contracts but he is not a replacement for an attorney.

    One more, in dealing with the bank, make sure you have in writing that funds will be released only on your request and will be released on to you (set up direct deposit).

  • 15 years ago

    I can tell you how I am handling some of the issues you asked about.

    I am doing an owner build, we had to have homeowners insurance paid in advance for the year while we are building, it covers injury, theft ($1000) deductable and any damage or vandalism.

    As for theft, we have an interior lot, I put a chain across the driveway and open it every morning for the contractors and lock it every night. I also have a motion "Deer Cam" in one of the trees that noone is aware of (Many times theft is an insdie job) and it captures sound and video of everyone as they come and go day and night.

    The chain is there for a deterant but by no means going to stop anyone that really wants to get by. But like my father-in-law has said, Locks are for honest people, if someone wants to break in they will find a way. A dead bolt makes no sense on a glass door, but it is just to stop the somewhat honest people.

  • 15 years ago

    According to what I know, and according to my insurance agent, homeowners insurance is inappropriate for a house under construction. A builder's risk policy is the norm. Most, if not all, lenders require one. It is usually taken out by the builder.

  • 15 years ago

    Agree with everything that Sue said above. I'd add that I would have no problem with a $1000 punch list hold back if, AND ONLY IF, the contract stated that you, in your sole discretion (not the bank, not the county, and definitely not the builder) had the capacity to state when substantial completion occurred and when the work was completed to your satisfaction. If you have that ability, then there should be no punch list. All the work should be completed prior to closing and there is no need for a return trip. Do not forget though, that a punch list is not a substitute for a warranty. You must have an exhaustive warranty that is at least 1 year in length.

    Good luck.

  • 15 years ago

    I think you need both homeowner's and builder's risk insurance- we did.

    Builder's Risk covers accidents during work hours on the job site- ex. when they're installing the gas line your house blows up. You'd be covered under Builder's.

    Homeowners covers what you'd expect outside of Builder's Risk.. Take for example your house getting struck by lightning on a Saturday when no one's working on the house. Builder's Risk will NOT cover you and without a homeowner's policy you are SOL.

    Our builder paid for the risk policy and we had a supplemental homeowner's policy as well.

  • 15 years ago

    Builder's risk normally covers fire loses. How would builder's risk not apply if the house was struck by lightning?

  • 15 years ago

    I'm sorry, I should have specified that yes, my homeowners includes a builder's risk type of plan that needs to be included.

  • 15 years ago

    Builder's risk covers accidents during normal work hours while they are actively building the house. Night and weekend accidents are not covered- the ones that come to mind:

    -nosy neighbors snoop and get injured on a weekend- then sue you.

    -acts of god like lightning, tornadoes, etc.

    We double checked on this b/c we ended up needing both- maybe some policies are more comprehensive than others. It's a question worth asking the builder. Our builder had an incident a few years back. $2M house was a week away from occupancy and a disgruntled acquaintance lit a fire one night. Owners were not covered by the builder's policy for a single dime.

  • 15 years ago

    Builder's risk covers accidents during normal work hours while they are actively building the house. Night and weekend accidents are not covered- the ones that come to mind:

    That sounds more like worker's comp. Our builder was required to have both.

    Check the link below on what is normally covered under builder's risk.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Insurance Glossary

  • 15 years ago

    I don't have any advice regarding theft or contracts. We are building on a ranch and just added the house under construction to the farm policy for insurance purposes.

    As far as the detail list of detailed items, I think that is great! The following is a start on a list of things to be included:

    Architect / Designer
    General Contractor / Builder
    Excavation (allow for extra if unsure of rocks, etc.)
    Underground Drainage (French Drain, etc.)
    Basement / Crawl Space Options (Foam Blocks, etc.)
    Moisture Barriers if necessary
    Concrete, Sand, Gravel
    Rebar, etc.
    Utility Hookups (Don't forget permits)
    HVAC System (Geothermal, Gas, Etc. and make sure and consider any special insulation requirements depending on your system)
    Electrical & Plumbing (Really think about these - pick out your fixtures, think about your design and where you want these services)
    Lumber Materials (If you are using a GC, he will get a detailed estimate from the lumberyard - Ask to go through it in detail with him at the lumberyard and look at these items. You will want to look at things like shingles, soffit colors, doors, trim, consider what level of insulation you want, everything you possibly can)
    Windows, Exterior & Interior Doors, Garage Doors - DO NOT let these be an allowance, actually choose all of them including hardware.
    Cabinets - I would reccommend detailing out your decision, pricing them out and then allowing for an overage for accessories and storage features you will think of later.
    Countertops & Backsplash
    Texturing & Painting
    Floor Coverings - Another thing to absolutely not let be an allowance.
    Rock, Brick, Accent Tile Work
    Woodstove, Fireplace, etc.
    Appliances - Another thing I would get a good idea on and then allow for a bit extra - don't forget the hood vent!
    Land
    Construction Interest
    Misc. Other Costs:
    Closet/Pantry Organization Items
    Photocopies, etc.
    Bathroom Exhaust Fans

    I'm sure this list by no means complete, but hopefully others will add/edit and it will get you a good start. Good Luck!

  • 15 years ago

    We did not have a construction loan during our build so the bank did not require builder's risk insurance, but our homeowner's insurer does not cover homes under construction. So, we removed our homeowner's insurance and took out a builder's risk policy through Zurich Insurance (which I found online and was much cheaper than going through an agent).

    This policy is also known as course of construction insurance, and it covered all kinds of damage and theft but no liability issues. So, if the house burned down during the construction process, we were covered up to the amount that we had paid for construction until that point. The policy had increasing value up to the amount that we projected our build would finally cost, and was for a set period of time (in our case, 12 months although we could have instead purchased a 9-month policy). The policy also covered theft during the construction (on our job, the painter's paint gun got stolen and other subs had various tools swiped, but there were no major thefts and our GC never asked us to cover the thefts so we didn't put the claim through our builder's risk insurer).

    We were concerned about liability so we made sure that our GC carried liability, workers comp and all subs carried workers' comp. We put a clause in our GC's contract that he was responsible for checking all subs' for valid and up-to-date insurance and licenses. We also spoke with an attorney friend, who gave us a generic "hold harmless" clause covering us on all liability and stuck it in our contract. In addition, we found that our homeowner's policy would cover us through our umbrella policy (also known as Personal Excess Liability coverage) for most liability on the jobsite. Although we did not have our homeowner's policy still in effect, the same insurer that was covering us for our PEL policy had our renter's insurance policy (which we took out to cover our posessions during the time we were renting during construction) and they put the umbrella policy over both our renters coverage as well as the house under construction, even though they didn't have the homeowner's policy.

    As you can tell, cobbling together this coverage was a little complex (and probably would've been easier with the help of a knowledgeable agent, but unfortunately I haven't found the right agent). I'm a bit obsessed with making sure that we have the right coverage in place. None of this is very expensive and, in my opinion, is critically important. I spent most of my career in the insurance industry and have heard enough horror stories of people going bankrupt simply because they didn't pay the (relatively nominal) premiums or were unaware of the importance of having appropriate coverage. Best of luck.

  • 15 years ago

    Our farm insurance on our current house covers all the land we own, including the new build for liability purposes. It does not cover the new house for loss. Our builder was required to carry builder's risk and workman's comp for the new build. So, it took three different policies to provide full coverage.

    Fortunately, there was no premium increase on the farm policy, as we have under two hundred acres total, which is the cutoff.

  • 15 years ago

    We currently have home owners and farm coverage for liability only, plus the tractors and equipment. We are looking to switch policies as the home owners has tripled in two years because of two hurricanes with us NEVER having any damage. I need a company that will write all our coverage, house, farm liability and eqipment in a reasonable package. Regards and thanking you in advance, P.K. in la.

  • 15 years ago

    We use Farm Bureau. Each state's is different. Have you checked into the LA offering?

  • 15 years ago

    I gather that a punch list is an amount held back from the builder until the house is finished?
    honey 1.... an example of a spec sheet might be found on this posting titled "New bid-please review (newbie here)on 8/27/09 by tony 098.... that looked detailed to me.. good luck

  • 15 years ago

    The punch list is a list of things that have to be done to complete the job, which can include paying the subs. The funds held back are called the hold back, or more formally, the retainage.

  • 15 years ago

    Thanks to everyone for so much feedback. It was most helpful. I have even printed out some of the suggestions. Keep 'em coming!

  • 15 years ago

    Hi we are building ourselves and we also had to pay a year in advance for builder's insurance. It covers theft BUT only under "lock and key". Meaning if you have your lumber stolen over night (which happens a lot I have heard) it would not be covered. Basically NOTHING is covered until the house is up and doors are locked. Just wanted to make you aware of that.

    If you are paying a builder it's their job to make sure nothing happens to your property - otherwise wouldn't you be building yourselves? He needs to be accountable 100%. He needs to make sure that the contractor's he is hiring don't walk away with your stuff, it's not your job. You don't want your contractors walking away with your stuff cuz they know you have insurance to replace it. Make him responsible for that - again that is why you are paying him. :) GOOD LUCK!

  • 15 years ago

    Many builder's risk insurers will require that you have a locked construction fence put up temporarily around your project because they need to minimize their risk for theft, since they're on the hook when stuff gets stolen. The fence is a good idea, not only for theft but also for the homeowner's own liability protection, in case someone wanders on to your jobsite after hours to take a look and injures themselves.