No, probably not all of them, but one after-rinse isn't a new situation. My 1992 KitchenAid Superba on all cycles did (or I should say, does, being as my sister is using it now) a pump purge after the main wash (fills for 15 seconds, circulates about 1 minute to flush the pump, fills 5 seconds more, then drains) and one full-fill rinse. Nowadays the Normal cycle is what's used for EnergyStar testing/qualification, since that's the cycle that majority of consumers will use ... so Normal is typically programmed to be conservative.

And this matters , why ?????

Do your dishes come out clean or not?

If so, what difference does it make how the result is arrived at? Also , Whirlpool is not exactly a top of the line marque or a technology driven firm. They are a mass production, high volume, low price least common denominator outfit. This almost always produces no frills types of products.

If you want complexity in your dishwasher you need to look at the European brands like Asko, Bosch and Miele. They heat their own water to sanitizing levels, some will soften your water, and they use very little detergent to clean effectively. This comes at a price though!

You bought the cheapest and you want....what?

I'll bet it does just fine, assuming you're dosing it correctly with detergent.

Except....105 is ridiculous. No DW detergent will do what it's supposed to at that temp. Are you sure you have that right?

I have Whirlpool. Its "normal" cycle heats to 120. I can't believe anyone would make a machine that doesn't do at least that. Please advise.

105 is not that bad for leaded crystal.

IMHO, bad for any DW at any time. That's hot-tub temp. It's the temperature you get when your heater relay is blown and you don't know it.

asolo - could you clarify what you are trying to say???

is 105 bad,

is 120 bad,

145, 155 ???

or all and why?

Miele dw's easily heat water to this temp and if you're running a sanitizing cycle you wouldn't want less. So not all dw's heating to this temp are broken.

Antss....not trying to say anything. I said it. Don't understand why clarification needed.

I've said 105F is warm water....probably cooler than you'd use in the sink if you were hand washing. It isn't hot enough for the detergent to do what it's supposed to do in the machine. I would not run ANY DW cycle at such a low temperature. If the machine I own delivered only that, I would regard it as broken. In fact, that's why I just replaced my machine. The relay controlling the heating element failed and there was no capability of heat-boost to an acceptable temperature. (And fixing that 9-year-old machine would have cost too much.) I was left with washing temperature of about 105F, terrible cleaning, and no drying.

The OP stated that his hottest wash temperature was 105 which I said was "ridiculous" because it is. If OP's machine is not capable of boosting to at least 120F, I regard that as unacceptable....which is what I said. OP has not responded. I suspect he does, in fact, have a machine that is capable of heating the wash-water above 105 but the heating element is not working properly....but don't know.

120 is the typical "normal" temp dishwashers use. Except for OP's machine, I am aware of none that will not do this in the "normal" cycle.

140-145 is the typical "hot wash" boost, available on many/most machines and gives better cleaning -- of course at the expense of more energy use.

155+ is what DW's typically offer in their "sani-rinse" cycles. Wash temperature is lower than that but the final rinse is boosted way up.

Some units with soil sensors for the 'smart wash' kind of cycle operate on a range of target temperatures for the main wash depending the sensed soil level. I am at this moment perusing the tech sheet for a particular model. The low-end temp for lightest soil levels is 105F. Up to ~120F for moderate soils, and 145F for heaviest soils or temp boost engaged. The final rinse is boosted to 135F or 140F even if the wash is 105. Enzyme detergents tend to be most effective at moderate temps not exceeding 125F. A "profile" wash for heavy soil starting at a low temp and ramping up through the wash phase gives the enzymes opportunity to do their work along with later thermal energy to melt/loosen encrusted soil.

On the few occasions that I hand-wash something, it's at 104F (40C) or less.

"A "profile" wash for heavy soil starting at a low temp and ramping up through the wash phase....."

Interesting idea that I first learned about from the clothes washer folks. However, seems to me somewhat redundant. With a load of cold dishes in a cold machine, whatever the entering temperature of the water may be, it will soon be rendered cool or barely warm by the mass of the dishes themselves. Even if the target temperature is 120 or 140, it will take quite some time for the heating element to raise it up to whatever the target may be. It has always been so. Seems to me that unavoidable interval is sort of de-facto "profile" wash in any event.

I think that's the same model I got about a year ago. (and it wasn't cheap! It was high-end compared to all the mainstream brands). Although I saw it at Best Buy yesterday for $150 less than what I paid. arggghhh

Anyhow, I've noticed that it has issues probably due to less rinse cycles or too much soap or maybe less phosphates, or a little of all of that. It was developing a line of black scum or such that was disgusting. The dealer told me to reduce the amount of soap and add a rinse aid. Both of these items helped.

I used to use the Light cycle (because I am a pre-rinser) and I assumed a brand new washer would do a terrific job and that would be all I would need. Now I use the Normal cycle mostly and every now and then I do a hi-temp wash.

These steps have helped the situation but its not great. I am currently researching STTP additives. Would be nice to see the sparkle again.

Thanks OP for that cycle info.

"Even if the target temperature is 120 or 140, it will take quite some time for the heating element to raise it up to whatever the target may be. It has always been so. Seems to me that unavoidable interval is sort of de-facto "profile" wash in any event."

asolo - you are simply being obtuse. Don't you think the engineers at some of these companies know exactly what you have recently discovered? They can and do adjust their profiles/programs to account for this. A few minutes of pre rinse will raise the ambient temp of the tub's contents. A few seconds will easily make steel pot and pans toasty. You've also failed to account or at least mention the DW's tub construction in your analysis - stainless steel, plastic or porcelain coated steel will all have effects on the this heat rise.

Oh, btw, what you SAID about the temps just wasn't CLEAR to many reading it !

Measure it yourself, antss. And it doesn't much matter to me if you, yourself, are one those engineers. Facts are facts. If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe it if you do it yourself.

Load your machine. Run your water 130F at the tap before starting the fill. When filled, let it run through the pre-rinse, then measure the temperature coming out. Then write back and tell us all how "toasty" it was. I'll be surprised if you even read 100F.

Then, after the wash cycle starts, measure that temp. Then measure it at intervals during the cycle and tell us how long it takes to raise the temperature up to target range. Then write back and let us know how many seconds or minutes that was. From what you wrote, I have no doubt another surprise awaits you.

I'm not being "obtuse"...I'm being accurate.

So, my previous wasn't clear to you....so, you asked and I said it again and expanded on it, didn't I?

I don't know why you've chosen to be so annoyed with me, but you're quite mistaken on both counts. 1) I'm not trying to annoy you and 2) you're wrong about the temperature topic.

We have an old (over 8 years) Maytag that has Hi temp buttons for wash and rinse and a heated dry button. I press all 3 and I always use the Pots and Pans cycle that seems to be one more pre wash cycle and may be hotter. The dishes are clean and that I what I want---not some kluged up washer that meets current standards by whatever methods. I just wish we had the same kinds of regulations on cars. They would all have to get at least 50 mpg and you know, they would too after some kluged up designs just like dishwasher and laundry equipment is at the moment.

From the Whirlpool site
"Dishwashers need heat to work their best. Wash water should reach 135 to 145 degrees to activate the detergent and provide a sanitary wash. Temperature sensors are beneficial because they ensure water heats properly for an optimal wash every time you run a load. This is especially true if your home water supply does not reach at least 120 degrees"