Time is only one part of the equation. Which do you suppose costs more to run: a 2hp electric motor for and hour or a 1/4 hp one for 3?

Efficiency is the key. How much resource input is required for a desired result.

Also remember that water and electric costs are way higher in Europe than in the U.S.

You still didn't answer what I am looking for. Yes, I know electric/water is expensive over the water. Are the European appliances using less hp/watts/whatever? Just HOW do they make appliances more cost efficiant- especially the electric part. My Fisher/Paykel dishwasher uses 2 liters of water for the eco cycle. I know the Whirlpool used more.

The question was answered, both by yourself and antss ... you just didn't recognize it. The pumps can be made smaller since a lower volume of water is being moved, less wattage, some have separate pumps for recirculation and drain so they can be engineered specifically and efficiently to the respective tasks, less volume of water for the internal heating to deal with, often no heating element for drying.

hi ilmbg, you got your answer as far as makes sense here. At applianceguru.com I can post for you a more detailed question if you wish, for example to ask where to see an image of the pumps used. Two small pumps per DW if I am correct. This kind of fine-grained information may still frustrate you since you didn't ask to see pumps. You might like to have a complete list of all the various improvements, but I doubt anyone has made this available to the public. I could ask to see images of the plastic spray arms or to know what diameter their pin size holes are or how much pressure is used to spray hot water out the holes. Water itself is a powerful solvent.

How the machines make use of small amounts of water of a certain temperature and spray pressure, combined with the enzyme-based detergents you are supposed to buy -- all this makes a big difference, but I wouldn't know how to explain this. Building clear plexiglas sided DW's, engineers have been able to see DW's in action and improve them every year. I would say the technology is now mature, in terms of getting things clean and doing it very quietly, almost silently. Many other features are now the highlight of the year. In terms of newer features, think of Automatic Shut-Off Leak Protection: when sensing water in the base, it automatically shuts water entry and drains whatever is in the base pan underneath. That can be worth 1000 times more than the machine purchase cost.

According to an Australian web site I just skimmed through,
"... the type of detergent you prefer can affect the type of machine that you eventually decide to buy
- Alkaline salts:... help the cleaning process by reacting with the fats on the dishes....
- Enzymes: ... results at lower temperatures ... break down protein and starch-based stains such as egg, pasta and cereal ... best at temperatures around 40-55C. ... that washes around this temperature.
- Surfactants: ... keeping it suspended in the water while not letting it settle back on the crockery.
- Chlorine or oxygen bleaches: Helps break down protein ... tea and coffee stains.... " endquote

So, Europeans managed to get it right by combining soap chemistry with physical water movement techniques. Power and water being limited resources which cost enough to be worth paying attention to at every step of the way.

david

As far as water usage in DW. Check out the Energy Star web site. Check the meeting documentation for Energy Star stake holder meetings (I find it interesting that energy Star defines stake holders as companies..but they did have one consumer representative there...seems like they need broader consumer representation). During the meetings when water usage was proposed to be included as part of Energy Star ratings for dishwashers, both FP and Miele said they had no problem including water usage as part of the ratings because they were already producing water efficient machines in other parts of the world. Other manufacturers selling in the USA market, and I think the consumer rep, balked at including water usage in the rating system. The thinking was that if consumers heard that the DW only used a little bit of water then they would think their dishes were not being cleaned. In other words the thinking is that USA consumers want to hear that a lot water is being used to get their dishes clean. I don't know about the cleaning but I DO prefer water change rinses performed to remove traces of detergents loaded with enzymes and possible metal formulations.

This may be an excuse but it also suggests that manufacturers did not want to take a chance because they feel that the consumer public doesn't want it.

Another discussion was about internal water heating. I think FP said that methods used to determine energy use were not fair because their DW and some others are able to heat the water from ice cold while most USA manufacturers require incoming water of 120F. This was just left hanging with no discussion or resolution, but think about it. DW A heats the water from cold to 130F and uses X amount of electricity. DW B heats the water from 120F which is HOT by todays standards, to 130F and uses Y amount of electricity. DW B itself may use less energy heating this water, but the consumer still paid anyway because energy was still consumed to heat the water outside of the DW. Did the consumer really save water heating energy using DW B?

There was inaction about this thus manufacturers such as Bosch who sell DW that heat from cold water will Sell DW to the USA that require the consumer to provide 120F incoming hot water so that they stay competitive in the USA market, even though the consumer may, or may not be saving anything.

If we want change consumers must generate the demand for it.

There was inaction about this thus manufacturers such as Bosch who sell DW that heat from cold water will Sell DW to the USA that require the consumer to provide 120F incoming hot water so that they stay competitive in the USA market, even though the consumer may, or may not be saving anything.

Bunkum. Jerrod, you're either using misinformation to peddle your La-Perla again or just willfully refusing to be informed.
Bosch DWs are sensor driven. They don't "REQUIRE" the feed water to be 120degF, they will take it (and perhaps even recommend it - I'll get back to this later). I've had my machine connected to the cold water supply and it handled it with NO DIFFERENCE in operation - either in washing or in drying - than when I had it connected to hot. We've had the hot water set VERY HOT (130defF at the taps - plumber bozocity) and it did fine. It is now set to a much more temperate 115degF and it is fine. These machines are sensor operated and use sensor feedback to accommodate variations in supply conditions.

I don't know how many more ways to tell you that the bloody machines work just dandy with or without a hot water connection - they just take a longer time getting on with it if they have to take a cold water feed in the middle of winter. So the "stay competitive" claim is just rubbish. Or your usual white-wash job.

As for the hot water supply - I don't think it is a bad thing at all. Like you, who have your machine connected to the hot water line, with a hot water connection the machine is simply able to get a "warm start" if the feed water is already hot. Many times people will want to run their machines (quiet ones) at the end of the day after a busy period of activity when taps have been running and there is hot water in the tank and hot water in the pipes. What makes you think it is more virtuous to forgo that already hot water and start from scratch heating a cold feed with water? Why does it offend your delicate sense of fair play that a already heated water may be used when there may be some in the house as opposed to heating YET another pot of cold water? The machine does NOT dribble away cold water until it gets a hot supply, so contrary to your claims in your first paragraph, it isn't wasting water either.

There is a point in what you write but typically, you've missed it. The problem isn't the machines, it isn't in the features that are to be considered, it is in the standardization of the way the tests are conducted, for these energy labels. This can be simply set but your representation of the issues that manufacturers have balked at is just plain, flat WRONG.
That in and of itself isn't surprising because testing standards, protocols and definitions are frequently bungled - even in such critical agencies as the FAA - so its hardly surprising that home appliance agencies are getting wrapped around the axel but that's the root of the problem; not Bosch getting their panties in a twist about 120degF and whatnot.

Lastly, again, I don't know what you're talking about re: nobody but Miele and FP wanting to claim water consumption efficiency. MANY, MANY machines have claimed and have been pushed on JD Powers', Green building, Dwell, etc. sites as being low water consumers and that being a good thing. Which brand is most water efficient, I don't know; nor do I recall which ones actually were as they claimed BUT believe it or not, a lot of machines are claiming water efficiency and a lot of people are buying because of it.