Two completely different body types and personalities. I'll go with Hillary every time.

Didn't Condeleeza Rice have the same position yet always managed to look pulled together and stayed fit?

*

Yes, Condoleeza Rice is also an accomplished pianist and figure skater in addition to her diplomatic skills.

But then she wasn't trying to keep track of Bill!

"A divorce doesn't even have to be that expensive." - sorry, Tina, but have to completely disagree. More and more people are staying together nowadays because they cannot afford to get divorced. My own uncontested divorce with relatively simple financials, negotiated through mediation where there were barely any disagreements to mediate, zero court appearances cost over $6,000... add court appearances and I believe the average divorce costs more like $25k on up to 6 figures. Not to mention the cost of maintaining two households when before there were one (both large enough to accommodate the kid)... divorce is financially crippling. We could barely afford it and that is with two professional salaries... and now I am living on some fraction of the median income in my area, even considering child support. The only reason I can afford it is lack of debt leaving my marriage.

Of course none of that applies to Hillary though. I think she stayed with Bill because it is her choice and not really any of anyone's business. I do not think she sets a bad example for other women, but rather she sets a good example. She sets the example that we are all free to make our own choices, even when those choices are not the popular ones, even when people call us bad names because of the choices we make. At the end of the day it's our own unmadeup face we have to see in the mirror and answer to.

Holy cow kgwlisa! The only person that I know the actual cost of their divorce is a sibling. Non contested, no children, etc. - it was pretty straightforward, and while not cheap, manageable. That is crazy! I wasn't figuring in the cost of the new (single) lifestyle afterwards though in my remarks - only the cost of a divorce.

As I stated earlier, I feel it's important for a woman to be able to support herself, but I didn't factor in children. Hopefully there is another parent to share those costs, but not always.

I hope things are going well for you now!

tina

Of course I don't know how Condoleezza lives, but I doubt she was commuting from NY to DC all the time, along with flying around the world. Let alone being married and having a daughter H probably sees often. Plus, Hillary is 7 years older than Condoleezza. Seven years is a big difference for many women, physically. Condoleezza was in her late 40's-early 50's when she began the job. Hillary's around 64-65.

Tina, divorce is VERY expensive even with no children. I do agree with you about the trust issue. I do think the majority of marriages begin thinking each is going to remain faithful.

If my dh cheated on me, I'd be psychologically damaged in many ways. The intimacy aspect with the other woman would probably kill me. lol. My self-esteem would fly out the door and nothing he could say or do would restore it. I would never trust him again. Ever. He would be watching his back in his sleep. :)

I guess I'm old-fashioned. I find marriage to be sacred between two people.

Remember Vince Foster? There was a lot of talk back then that he was Hillary's lover. But that's another topic. :)

Tina - the increased costs of maintaining two households that kgwlisa was talking about are not necessarily after the divorce. In my state, if there are children, you have to be separated for one year before divorce is allowed. So that means two separate households now have to be paid for before the divorce even happens.

I don't understand why a woman staying with a man who cheated on her is considered to be a bad example. It takes a lot of commitment to your vows and personal fortitude to accomplish what she did. Shame on Bill for cheating, he's absolutely the bad guy in it; to criticize a woman for making a personal choice about her own personal life IMHO is wrong. After all, she's not living her life for the sole purpose of setting examples for us or so the world can judge her. She made a difficult decision and stuck to it, I'm sure in the face of it all that had to be extremely painful.

Now had there been physical abuse in the mix then yes, it's poor choice (as with Rhianna), but not when you look at what they had invested in their marriage and how much it obviously meant to her.

My divorce cost less than $1K, with the bulk of it going to a mediator we went to one time. I imagine when you are taking into account a minor child or children, things are more complicated and thus more expensive.

i also admire her for being a public figure and not being that concerned about her appearance... i think that if it was me and cameras were shooting my every move, i would be spending more time with my hair and makeup!! but, then again, i know i would get really tired of always having to pull myself together to be camera ready and might quit fussing too!!!
i do think that if she decides to make another run for the presidency(which i do wish she would!) she will spend more time with her appearance since it WILL affect the vote...

i do think that she and bill are both brillant and ambitious and are probably very compatible. they also must have a great deal of respect for each other...which has helped them weather his behavior and the public humiliation...

i do think that she and bill are both brillant and ambitious and are probably very compatible. they also must have a great deal of respect for each other...which has helped them weather his behavior and the public humiliation...

In my opinion, anyone who cheats doesn't respect their spouse or the marriage. Bill may respect her and the marriage NOW especially after coming so close to loosing it, but no one will ever convince me that he respected Hillary or their marriage when he cheated. If he did, he wouldn't have cheated.

There seems to be some assumption he is not cheating now, how would we know? I thought they lived separate lives.
I tend to think once a serial cheater, always one.

Well, this is true BB, maybe there are agreements between them. Who knows? I'm not sure I agree about once and always though. People do mature and change.

A serial cheater?

Natal, don't you get tired of analyzing everyone's posts? You wear me out! Geesh!!

i have a hard time believing that the ML incident was an isolated one... i would think that hillary had an idea of bill's character prior to the whitehouse incident...

i haven't lived through an infidelity, but i THINK i'm intuitive enough that i would have an inkling if my husband was a strayer or was straying... i don't know if i would ever be able to forgive, but i would think i would still respect an awful lot about the man i married-- his parenting/relationship with the kids, his intellect, his humor, etc,etc.... a lot of living/experience goes into a multi-decade marriage- it's not a childless 3-5 year marriage we're talking about! i am assuming that there must be alot of good in a relationship-compatibility, respect, history, mutual goals, etc- that can withstand infidelity. i sure as heck don't see hillary as the type of woman who would shamefully and stubbornly 'stand by her man'....

BB you keep bringing up the word respect, but to me, cheating is an absolute COMPLETE disrespect for the relationship and spouse. A cheater cheats on the marriage, the wife and even the children. It's the ultimate betrayal and especially in the manner he chose to do it in. It could not have been more humiliating to her. Regardless of whether anyone agrees with her politics or not, it was really amazing that she rose above it as gracefully and as poised as she did. I however will never believe he respected her while he was cheating on her.

Olliesmom, I do tire of your nitpicking.

Lukk, no one entering the cheating arena is thinking about their marriage. If they were they wouldn't be doing it. Painting all cheaters with the disrespect brush is a little unfair, IMO. Some deserve it, some don't.

Natal, it goes both ways!

I don't think it's unfair at all. I've been in that arena, been cheated on so harsh or not, it's how I feel.

I have to agree with Lukk on the respect aspect. How on earth could someone respect their partner, their marriage and then cheat? That doesn't make sense. But Lukk, I think the very point you are making is why some people don't understand how she could stay with him.

Whoever mentioned ML being a one time thing - weren't there others who came forward? Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

Thanks Graywings - maybe costs are different in different areas. The relative I mentioned spent less than $1000 on her divorce also. Basically court/lawyer costs. Gail - what state are you in? I didn't realize some states require that. That certainly would add to the expense.

tina

There are a lot of marriages where infidelity was not a deal breaker. It really depends of the people involved. The reason I have respect for her choices is regardless of what drove them, SHE believed for herself that working it out with him was the right decision and regardless of what the public opinion was she stuck to it.

It's the same in Virginia...the parties must live separate and apart for one year before a divorce can be granted. Divorce can get very expensive, even when children are not involved. At any rate, I seriously doubt that money was an issue for the Clintons!

As far as a breach of trust, there are so many ways people can break each other's hearts that don't involve infidelity. Disappointments, deep pain & sorrow, serious grievances, can result from so many things.

It's all so personal, what we can reconcile and make peace with, and what shatters us for good.

BB, mine was a legitimate question. What constitutes a serial cheater?

I'm a naturalist so I say good for Hilary for showing she's comfortable with her natural looks. And that comment has nothing to do with her politics because I don't often agree with them. Politics aside, I do like the woman.

Tina - I'm in Virginia.

I have to agree with trailrunners remarks. Hillary is one of the most power hungry woman I have ever seen - and I don't mean that in a good way. Would I love to see a woman president? Sure, if she was qualified, but I don't think that Hillary is - IMO.

Re" the cheating - they are the reason that many of us had to explain to our 9 yr olds what a bj is. It is impossible to say exactly what may or may not have happened in their marriage, but what we do know as fact is what happened under the desk in the oval office. What shame that brought our country - what ammunition that gave to the eastern cultures so bent on portraying us as a shameful people.

IMO, and without knowing them personally, which I don't think anyone here does, I think she could have cared less what he did with his "willie" but stayed with him because of the access it gave her to the power she so craved. Again, IMO.

However, to address the issue that was brought up on this thread, I do think that her appearance is important. This is not to say that she needs to look like a movie star or top model, but looking frumpy isn't the answer. I do not believe this has anything to do with her sex. Men in power look presentable, groomed and well dressed. I don't believe any top male politician would attend a meeting with a wrinkled shirt, unshaven with bed head. I am sure they glance in the mirror before they leave the house, she looks as if she doesn't.

Re the pantsuits - she is on the hippy side, as am I - we are all born in different shapes and sizes. There are ways to design clothes, including pantsuits, to not emphasis our negatives. Her clothes aren't the right cut for her, and I say this not because she is a woman. If a man were to wear a suit with the buttons bursting at the seams because it was not a proper cut, there would be reason to be critical of that. Like it or not, our appearance does mean something if you are representing the most powerful and wonderful country in the world.

Just google it, Natal.

I get it, she's power hungry because she want's to go as far politically as she can but non of the men politicians with their willies all over the place are. Makes perfect sense!

I think we can say penis.

Willies is just so much funner!

"What shame that brought our country - what ammunition that gave to the eastern cultures so bent on portraying us as a shameful people."

Perhaps, but if those citizens really believe that his actions were worse than strapping explosives on a child and turning him into a suicide bomb, they are a lost cause, anyway.

Willies is just so much funner!

Especially when they're slick?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Yes, part of me is 12 years old.
;)

It was more of a test. On CL you can say penis, but not vagina.

I hate that word, both words actually. I doubt I'm alone with that especially since there are so many nicknames for them.

A discussion about a naked face turns into one about euphemisms for genitals! Perfect!

Back to your original point, Lukki...really, what if she IS power hungry? Ambition drives some people! Don't we need people in power to have drive and ambition to get things done?

Power hunger doesn't raise an eyebrow if it dwells within a man does it? In fact, isn't usually thought of in a postive light? As in, "He's ambitious, tough, determined, and tenacious...what a winner!"

Lukk, you don't use nicknames for other body parts do you? I've never heard of adults having an issue using correct terminology. I have heard the debate among some parents, but it's generally acknowledged that using proper names with children avoids sending a message of shame or embarrassment that's often associated with cutesy nicknames.

Power hunger doesn't raise an eyebrow if it dwells within a man does it? In fact, isn't usually thought of in a postive light? As in, "He's ambitious, tough, determined, and tenacious...what a winner!"

Exactly, I think it's BS to say just because it's woman with those traits, she's power hungry. Whether one agrees with her politics or not, she still has enough accomplishments under her belt to be able to succeed perfectly well without Bill. She certainly didn't need his "good character" to carry her. If I recall correctly he was actually a liability when she became Secretary of State.

Natal, a couple years ago my DD was in an appearance of The Vagina Monologues. I was discussing it with a coworker when another came over to shush me because I was 'using that word'. Oh my, I actually said v-a-g-I-n-a out loud, and in mixed company no less!! It was odd because the person is a well educated professional. I guess it's just what your comfort level is. I grew up calling breast minnews, but taught my children the anatomical term. My Mother still refuses to say the word breast-she is even uncomfortable saying it in relation to poultry.

As to HC and her perceived hunger for power and her lack of 'acceptable' grooming...women with ambition are often looked upon with disfavor. If they do like Elizabeth Dole, and get the full salon look, they'll not be considered serious about the job.

Remember when HC made the comment about baking cookies? The woman cannot win because she does not fit that 'traditional' role of a woman in politics. Women are STILL expected to look pretty and let the men handle the tough stuff. Unless you're a former beauty queen-then you have what it takes to possibly POTUS.

When I refer to her being power hungry in a negative manner it has nothing to do with her sex. We need powerful people to run our country, our defense, our corporations etc. I just want them qualified. I respected Condaleeza Rice - not because she was a woman, but because I thought she was great at what she did. So for me, this is not a discussion of sex, I have no respect for Hillary, not because of what went on in her marriage, or her sex, but simply because I don't think she brings much to the table.

For the rest of the post, there are just too many things not to respond to, for you have brought me many laughs, and today was one of those days I needed them. When I said "willies" I forgot about "Slick Will" so the pun wasn't intended but slap me on the back and give a thanks to Terriks for picking up on it!

As a Mom, there are times when conversations with the kids needed the correct terminology, but heck, boobies and peepees or whatever can bring levity to a subject sometimes uncomfortable to kids - not to bring them shame, actually quite the opposite. As a kid my Nom called my privates a "pa-tock-a" - no idea why, but it makes me smile everytime Governor Pataki of NY is discussed. Like Terriks, I am 12 again.

For you Greys Anatomy fans - even Dr Bailey referred to her privates during childbirth as her "VaJayJay" in one of the funniest episodes ever. I love being 12 again!

Oddly I think woman can get away with being powerful and ambitious if she is highly intelligent, not too good looking and not too unattractive and of course she must be well groomed and suited. That seems to be a package the over all public will approve of.

I can not think of any powerful men that are not well groomed and reasonably well dressed...can you?

I can only think of one man that gets slammed and thatâÂÂs âÂÂThe Donaldâ for his hair but he is otherwise very well groomed.

I think it's easier for a professional man to look good because their hair (or lack of) is much simpler to care for and keep looking good through humidity, rain, wind, etc.; they don't wear makeup, and they practically have a uniform to wear everyday-- the suit.

OK - let me be 12 one more time. I just got back from the ER. My 20 yr old daughter has the coxsackie virus. She works in a day care and one of the kids was sick with the same symptoms - itchy and painful blisters on her hands, tongue, feet, nose, and in her mouth - my poor baby! I knew of the virus, she did not, so after she was given the diagnosis it was giggles all the way home. A fun Mom and daughter moment, and it took her mind off the itchies until the medicine kicked in. Admit it, it is a tough word to say without thinking nasty thoughts~

Sorry your daughter got the icks...but that IS a pretty funny name. I'd have giggled too. I once met a woman name Dickie Buttz and I had a very, very hard time keeping a straight face when I heard her name.

Sorry your daughter is going through such a very uncomfortable illness, Lynn! Hope she's better, ASAP!

Oh gosh, Pesky! DB is a name made for changing!

Well I think the parents of DB should be sued for cruel and unusual punishment.

Lynn, I hope your daughter gets well soon. That sounds like a miserable illness. And what a terrible name for it! But funny. LOL

They gave her a medicine for the mouth blisters that totally numbs her tongue - now she can't say the word without really making it worse than it already sounds. It is going to take a few more days but hopefully the benedryl will keep her sleeping through most of it. Thanks for the good wishes. I will pass them to her - she thinks my "forums" are nothing more than women like me with OCD about wall colors - she doesn't appreciate the need for 16 samples of color on the walls. There is hope for her yet, but again thanks for the well wishes.

pesky1, I very rarely laugh out loud with books, movies, tv etc. but I had a gutteral laugh out loud for poor Dickie B, hee-hee. Shoot those parents.

Lukk, you don't use nicknames for other body parts do you? I've never heard of adults having an issue using correct terminology. I have heard the debate among some parents, but it's generally acknowledged that using proper names with children avoids sending a message of shame or embarrassment that's often associated with cutesy nicknames.

You need to lighten up and have some fun Natal, sometimes you are wound just a little too tight. :c)

Hillary Clinton doesn't bring much to the table? She graduated from Wellesley College and Yale Law School, and was a Senator. You may not like her for many reasons, but you can't say she is unaccomplished.

I hate that word, both words actually. I doubt I'm alone with that especially since there are so many nicknames for them.

Who's wound a little too tight?

Ummm, you!!! Why should you care what I or anyone else likes to call our body parts. If you want to use those terms feel free but that doesn't mean I or anyone else has to... LOL geeze...