It's the nature of the beast :(

I've never seen anyone here referred to as an idiot or asked if they've lost their mind.

This forum is not meant to be an echo chamber, where people should hear only praise and what they want to hear. The whole point is to get different ideas and opinions, and some of those will be negative. This is a very civil forum, in my opinion. A heartfelt or passionate/strong opinion is not the same thing as incivility.

If one asks for opinions, one must be prepared to accept all responses. It is that person's prerogative to reject any opinions of advice they don't care for.

Going personal is never acceptable, but I've never seen it here, or at least not enough for anything to come to mind. But personalities are like rainbowsâ¦they run the entire spectrum, from hot to cold.

Assume that no one here has any desire or intention to insult or hurt anyone with their response, and you'll read the response in a different light.

I agree with Tibbrix.

I've seen lots of new posters start with "I've been lurking for a while, and now I have a question". In that case, I presume that one has read posts from a number of people, and recognizes a wide range of styles. There are definitely a few here whose style is short and to the point - perhaps even to the point of rudeness. But what I take from those folks is that they want to make a point, without spending paragraphs getting it across. And those points are very often valid, and lead to further discussion. If the Emperor is naked (or looks horrible in puce), someone has to come out and say it.

I don't see nearly as much pot-stirring here as other places.

I called someones front door hideous the other day - is that what you mean? I didn't insult their tastes, just the front door.

But for what the OP had planned for her front entry of her newly purchased house (she didn't choose the front door) it was, nor did the door go with the house, however the OP was very kind to me and said that she liked the front door, and I took that as my cue to bow out of the conversation and so I did.

I recognize that we all have different tastes, different backgrounds, different sensibilities and different tolerances with respect to colour and frou-frou stuff and I do respect those differences. I think posters and those who respond also have to respect and understand that.

I'm with Tibbrix and annkh. If you ask for opinions and advice, you need to be prepared for some honest responses. You don't have to like the person's delivery or even their opinion, and are free to disregard their comment. It's the internet and we really can't possibly know one another. I think this board is pretty darn civil, considering stuff I see elsewhere. I've seen a few threads disappear, and I figure someone complained.

I know that many people seek affirmation and approval of choices they've made and have no intention of changing. I think we should be mindful of staying on topic and not giving unsolicited advice. Or at least treading very carefully if we do.

I've been stung once or twice and honestly can't even remember what it was about, so you can see I wasn't totally undone.

I try to be civil on this board. I'm appreciative of positive comments and the time people take to answer my questions and help me. Sometimes I think people are kinda rude, but ya know, ignoring is a good response. Humor. I appreciate the good will and humor on this board.

blfenton, in framing my original post, I tried very hard to stay away from singling out any particular rude or uncivil post. So, no, yours was not what I had in mind. However, it does underscore one of my questions.

If someone says, "Should I paint my door puce or chartreuse?", should those of us who think either color would be horrid even respond?

If the poster asks for an opinion, then I agree, they asked for an opinion and they ought to be prepared for an opinion - as long as the opinions are expressed without judgment. For example, "what color should I paint my garden gnome" is an open-ended question with a rainbow of answers. As further example, I don't think it would be polite or useful to say "You have a garden gnome? The only thing you should do with a garden gnome is throw it out with the trash!"

btw, Tib, my "idiot" and "out of your mind" were simply hyperbole to set out a point. They were not something someone had actually said.

I think there can be succinctness without rudeness. I think there can be politeness without obfuscation. I think there can be civility on the internet in anonymous forums. Call me a cock-eyed optimist!

There is the recent thread on Decorating around a Deer Head--clearly this is what the poster is going to use in her home and there is no need to state a negative opinion on hunting.

There have been two other recent threads--one here and one on building a home--where the finances and living arrangements of the posters came under discussion.

bbstx: If someone says, "Should I paint my door puce or chartreuse?", should those of us who think either color would be horrid even respond?

Should I do this or that? Well, a perfectly legitimate response to that question is "No!" I think it's helpful to give a reason for giving a particular answer, and bonus points for offering a helpful alternative. Honestly, how many times has a person come with a choice or two that were frankly awful and had some good help choosing a better solution? Paint that's a nice color doesn't cost any more than a horrible shade. :)

I do think, for the most part, that this forum is very civil. I have, from time to time, seen a comment that made me pause. WTBS I must admit that I have a very thick skin. I don't take offense easily and honestly it drives me crazy that in our society we have to be so worried that we will offend someone.

I do think that we should always attempt to be kind in our responses. I made a comment once about a particular style of chair being butt ugly. It didn't belong to anyone that was posting, it was just an example that someone posted. Usually I don't make comments like that and I felt terrible afterwards that I was not kinder. I definitely should have kept that comment to myself. It didn't add a thing to the discussion and I made a fool of myself.

We can't though, follow the rule of "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all". When we give our opinions, if they are negative, we should try to at least be diplomatic. A point that I need to remember after my "butt ugly" comment.

"If you do not agree with what someone is doing ... Should we even say we disagree?

Yes, of course we should. If you aren't looking for other opinions from a wide variety of people, don't ask for them on the internet. Ask your real-life friends who will be kind and tell you what you want to hear.

Having a wide variety of responses, whether brutally honest, sweet as sugar, tinged with sarcasm, in-your-face blunt, etc., etc. is what makes an internet forum interesting to read. Like it or not, people enjoy an little drama from time to time, or a lively disagreement or discussion. It's really boring to hang out with a bunch of "yes men/women." Sure some of the posts give me pause now and again, just as I'm sure some of mine rub people the wrong way occasionally. Some of the most contrary posters are also the most fun to read. I'd be bored out of my mind if everyone was always trying to think of the sweetest, kindest way to get their point across. I enjoy seeing people's personalities seep into their posts and I like it when people say what they think. And I've seen quite a few posts where niceness does the OP no favors. Sometimes they are well-served with a little blunt shove in the right direction.

I will say that GW is one of the most civil forums I've visited and is a good reflection of what I find to be true everywhere ... most people are nice most of the time.

jellytoast, all I can say is ditto.

One thing I have been seeing a lot on GW (maybe not on this forum) is what I will call "hit and run" posters. They post several questions on one or more forums. They get helpful responses but never say thank you or anything and then they are gone. Sometimes I see a post and suspect this will be a hit and run I actually want to ask. Will you acknowledge responses you get? Sometimes people really go into details working up layouts etc. and still no response. I can't imagine if you were face to face with these people they would just turn and walk away but maybe they would.

Please, before saying someone is rude for not saying thanks, remember just how bad the GW software is, and how often it just doesn't work.

You know it's bad when you can find GW posts far better and faster through Google than through GW.

Agree with Linelle and most of the other commenters. I have also been stung a few times. Feeling misunderstood, i would try again to explain myself, only to get bashed again by the same person(s). At that point I disengage and just ignore the mean or sarcastic retort. I'm not going to enter a sparring match..it's pointless and not worth it if the other person is unable to understand two separate explanations.

The oddest one happened over on the KT forum. Someone asked for opinions on giving a monetary gift. I gave my opinion and someone actually called me out by name and said "you are absolutely wrong!" I was dumbfounded....how is one's "opinion" wrong or right? Needless to say I just laughed it off and did not respond.

For the most part I think this forum is pretty civil and respectful.

we're lucky here, really -- very few trolls

I'd rather see a troll come around than one more thread about what is and isn't okay for a public forum discussion.

Starting a A Conversation on Civility does not promote Civility.

"I made a comment once about a particular style of chair being butt ugly ... It didn't add a thing to the discussion and I made a fool of myself."

You are being too hard on yourself. It did add something to the discussion ... humor.

Count me on the side of politeness and civility. When you're rude or insulting, you only make yourself feel better at the expense of others. When you're nice and helpful, you make everyone feel better including yourself. If you think someone's intruding on your time, don't respond or keep it brief.

I think there's a way to express disagreement with tact and it's worth finding that way to build a strong, supportive online community. Take some of the plant forums for example...the hosta forum is so fun to lurk on because everyone is super supportive, encouraging and nice. It's a pleasure to be there and it has a very strong cadre of dedicated posters for that reason. The last thing they would say is "rip it out, your garden is a total do-over." But how often do you hear that or the equivalent here?

I don't think that means disagreement is out, just that it should be helpful, not snarky. But decorating fora tend to be bastions of snark for whatever reason. Maybe because it's less about concrete things and more about ineffable stuff.

Oh dear, a "tone post", reminding us of the grievous loss of civil discourse since the days of yore, when the OP first deigned to grace this forum with his/her presence.

I am abashed and distraught that I failed to notice the decline, although my presence first graced these hallowed pixels a full half-decade before the aggrieved one's debut.

Sincerely;
LazyGardens
First registered on August 11, 2002 .

SHOULD

What a clever word. Should I ask? Should I reply? Should I be honest? Should chartreuse be used?

The word 'should' - by it's very definition, implies judgment. You should do/think/decorate in a way that I think is right. Yes, judgment implies right and wrong. But whose standards SHOULD apply? Yours? Mine? Some magazine's?

If I'm using the word 'should' - as in 'you should' - it's pretty obvious...my standards apply and I judge.

As it relates to being civil...omit the word 'should' and the world would be a civil place.

Thanks bbstx for posting this. I have enjoyed being part of this community and am sure I have received far more than I have given. I do cringe when some posters "speak" with such authority and conviction as to have a chilling effect on the conversation. That does seem counter-productive to the purpose of forums like these. Maybe I'm just insecure enough to never think my truth is the truth. I come to this forum for opinions, suggestions, recommendations, options, ideas, etc. It would be great to get all of this without judgment. My two cents. Thanks - I appreciate the conversation.

LOL.

Sorry for laughing, but I couldn't help it.

(edit: this response was intended for lg's post above).

This post was edited by jellytoast on Wed, May 28, 14 at 22:17

GW is my only experience with online forums. As I said initially, I have been the recipient of good information and advice and I appreciate it. Like others, I've been stung from time to time, but not enough to run me off.

I love snarky humor. I love the lively exchange of ideas. What I don't love is gratuitous nastiness.

Guessing I better not share my puce photos.... Or maybe if I call it greenish-beige it will be okay.

:)

Personal taste and style is personal. Some will not like what you have to say. Some will be kind enough not to tell you your style is boring.

But if you have nothing constructive to say........

"...deigned to grace this forum with his/her presence" suggests arrogance and condescension on the part of the OP, qualities that I find absent from her thoughtfully worded post.

I guess this is an example of the different styles posters use and appreciate. While some find LG's post funny, it just seems mocking and nasty to me.

Is this the thread where I say something so egregious I get banned?

j/k

As forums go, this one is so mild. I've been on others where meltdowns included suggestions of doing something anatomically impossible and references to someone's mother.

But that's not to say that each forum can't have it's own stds of conduct. Usually they end up being self policing from the POV that people will disengage or step in to discourage unacceptable behavior. And of course, there's the back up of having the thread pulled if it gets too bad.

On the GW, I have taken a fair amount of critique. But as long as the critique is done to help me improve the situation and is around the work or task at hand and not about me personally, it's fine. I welcome honest feedback...if I didn't want it, I wouldn't ask in the first place. I presume people spend their time here to be helpful, not hurtful and proceed with that assumption with each individual until it's proven to be otherwise.

But I have been told to shut up, been treated with condescension and even been told I had no right to participate. I've also been personally attacked. So my rule is to only respond to posts that are civil and respectful, and if someone can't continue with me in that vein, then I just put that person on my *ignore* list and carry on.

Usually when people are blunt, it is part of what i perceive as humor. I thought BBSTX's own hypothetical gnome post was funny.

GW posters are mostly civil. I don't think anyone has ever criticized a finished product owned by a poster, unless specifically invited to do so. That can only be due to civility, and it is a line I have never seen crossed.

Bbstix, I agree with your statement and I understand what you mean. I read comments that actually made me uncomfortable since I feel most people would not say such statements when face to face with a person, it's just rude. There's a kinder way to give an opinion in a forum without making the poster feel negativity in the response. I've seen it and I've had it done to me once. I didn't appreciate it and I'm sure no other poster's do either. For the most part this is an amazingly helpful group and it's why I choose to stay on this forum. Glad you brought the subject up though, ty.

I think I have been blunt, especially in Kitchens. After seeing people heading toward the same mistakes, in the five years I have been a member,I just have to call it as I see it.

I agree with jellytoast. We do have to see the humor here. In the "decorating around the deer head" thread I admit that I got a few chuckles. Keeping things in perspective, we are talking about decorating, not life long struggles or illness.

When asked to choose between chartreuse and puce, I think we should have the option to say neither. I have seen complete turn arounds when I posted my answer as neither. Interesting that all the following posts agreed with me.

I know I come here for honest opinions and realize that some might not be as diplomatic as others. But it is when true personalities come out, that things get interesting.

"While some find LG's post funny, it just seems mocking and nasty to me."

If by "some" you are talking about me, it is fine to call me by name. I honestly thought that LG was just making a joke about the futility of trying to suggest to people how they should behave on the internet. Maybe I have a warped sense of humor or something, but I just didn't see any nasty intent. I did apologize for laughing because I did kind of figure it was poor form to laugh at jokes on a serious thread.

bbstx, You make some great points. I literally was just thinking along those same lines last night, noticing that there seemed to have been several strongly worded opinions voiced here recently that were valid (and valuable) dissents--but could have been just as effectively stated in a more tactful manner. I think robotropolis, rubyclaire and lazydaisynot articulated it far better than I can.

LOL and OMG and WOW WOW WOW!! I've been hanging around here for a long dang time and this is the first I learned there was an "ignore" option.

If you don't like it people, then leave. Simple as that.

Some of us post from devices that encourage conciseness and low word count. Brevity and directness---and honesty---isn't rudeness. It just isn't touchy feely everyone gets a medal for participating in the Barney I love you, you love me, compliment till your teeth hurt happy happy joy joy nicefest. And that took me 10 minutes to type because I can't fricking see this tiny little keyboard and can't find my glasses---again. Venture out into the original WWW or the archives of some old newsgroups if you want to see how the cyber world REALLY is. This place is so vanilla that it makes French vanilla look like chocolate.

I was going to weigh in on this matter with a specific example of how tolerant GWers are of posters who tediously push their opinions and suggestions long after they have been politely declined. But in the interest of civility, I am simply going to keep packing.

"I think there can be succinctness without rudeness. I think there can be politeness without obfuscation. I think there can be civility on the internet in anonymous forums. Call me a cock-eyed optimist!"

I totally agree with you. There is a way to say something - and of course there is a way not to. It doesn't hurt to be nice!

I've been a part of this forum for many years (under a different name around 10 years ago), and have gained so much valuable advice and encouraging energy here. Throughout the years, I have had times when I just felt a very strong need to withdraw from this place too, sensing more of a negativitiy than I was comfortable with at the time. I know there have also been times when I have contributed to the production of bad vibes, but I'm determined to guard against that. So much has already been said about how we all have the ability to phrase our thoughts in a kind and gentle manner, and conversely how we all have the ability to control and adjust our own interpretation and expectation of others.

I'm at the point where I'll participate here when it's working for me, and I'll go off and do something else when it isn't feeling right. I find that actually quite liberating.

This post was edited by SunnyCottage on Thu, May 29, 14 at 10:56

uh, well, this thread started out pretty civil, at least. (shakes head)

The best combination of puce and chartreuse that I've seen:

YMMV.

For the most part, the responders seem to have put thoughtful consideration into their answers. I started the thread because I was really curious about the parameters of behavior the community finds acceptable. It was not my wish to preach.

My questions weren't rhetorical. I was looking for answers. "Should we respond C if someone says A or B?" "How should we respond?"

I am fascinated by The Civility Initiative headed by P. M. Forni at Johns Hopkins University. He posits that incivility not only affects our social interactions, but it is also detrimental to our health.

HA! suero. Love it!

"My questions weren't rhetorical. I was looking for answers. Should we respond C if someone says A or B? How should we respond?"

In my opinion, each of us can respond in whatever way we see fit within the posting guidelines to convey our own personal opinion. While we are a community, we are not one person with one voice; we are individuals with our own ways of communicating our thoughts. Personalities and contrary opinions are bound to seep into answers and some of them may grate on your nerves. Be happy that the ones you find particularly grating are only on your computer screen and not living next door to you. Again, this is my opinion only.

I wouldnâÂÂt think that civility is optional. Does anyone actually go through life thinking, âÂÂI am just going to say whatever I want without the least thought about how civil it isâÂÂ? Granted we arenâÂÂt all equally capable of communicating tactfully, but most people donâÂÂt intend to insult or be nasty. Who has not put their foot in their mouth from time to time? But an oops, followed by an apology goes a long way.

I have no problem with disagreement. I expect it. Having contrary opinions is really helpful, even if only to solidify in your mind that is not what you are trying to accomplish. If someone is asked for their opinion, I hope they will give an honest one, politely. I donâÂÂt see any reason to be disrespectful while disagreeing passionately. I donâÂÂt mind at all if you hate my color choice and say so, as long as youâÂÂre not going to tell me that if I like it, IâÂÂm an idiot.

I agree with Tibbrix, that making something personal is never acceptable and I have seen it happen on other forums where it has become very disruptive. You donâÂÂt have to search for the most kind and sweetest response, but respect is something we are all entitled to.

This forum is pretty tame. I think one thing I try to keep in mind when I read a post is to "answer the question". If the poster is asking about her fromt door paint color, don't respond/react with changing all the landscaping. A personal example: a few months ago I asked about organizing car keys for our 4 car family & 2 garages and for ideas to elliminate the morning craziness .Really, my question was that all key fobs look alike. II had a few responses asking why it was MY problem and how I should instruct my kids to figure this out. if they were old enough to drive,they should be capable,blah,blah. A tad snarky, but I have a thick skin and chalk this up to the poster's problems with their own kids.

Sometimes the blunt and snarky posts are so different than the poster's regular online personality that I presume that they have had a bad day or had one too many glasses of wine.

I think the snarky and overly blunt posts reveal more about the writer than they do about the poster's issue.

I understand your point, ratherbesewing, but sometimes the solution to a problem comes from understanding the root cause which may reside in a larger issue. I mean... and of course I'm exaggerating, and not drawing parallels to your specific situation, and only using this as an example, and this example is fictional and not representative of or referencing any specific person or situation...if a poster wants to know what paint will stand up to her soaking wet wall, is it out of line to suggest she fix the leak first?

pm2, I think there are some people who care not one whit about civility. And, yes, they do say what they please without concern about the damage they are causing to others.

I, unfortunately, have a member of my family who delights in acting rudely and crudely. He strives to cause strife. He usually succeeds.

I think there are people who say "I'll say what I think and the world be damned if they don't like it." They think they are being honest. I'm not advocating for anything less than honesty, but honesty doesn't have to be brutal. Nor does it have to be a saccharine love fest. It can be respectful.

rbs, what an interesting way of looking at a snarky comment, that the posters were projecting their own problems onto your question. Perhaps that happens more often than we know.

"each of us can respond in whatever way we see fit "

Absolutely true; we can.
We all have every right to choose to be A--holes.
The question is, why would we?

bbstx, I agree that there are a few people out there, who do get some pleasure from causing problems. But in my experience they are a real exception. Personally, I think denying them a target is the best response. :-)

I agree that sometimes, someone is just having a bad day and maybe runs out of patience and responds in a way they later regret. And some people have a hot button on a particular topic. Usually, we can all overlook these departures from the usual way members post, because we aren't exempt ourselves.

I think it is really that person who is intent on continuing to post in an inflammatory way, trying to stir the pot, or doesn't realize the effect they are having, that some of us finally lose our patience and drama occurs.

I appreciate this thread, because it is really a reminder of what intentions most of us have and to put a little more effort into even going beyond civil to being actually friendly and congenial and try to overlook someone's bad day here and there. :-)

The other thing I've seen happen on line is people will gang up on someone. It can get very nasty and for some reason...safety in numbers?...they seem to lose their individual sense of proper behavior and instead escalate the situation, each one egging on the other, resulting in dialogue that would never occur if it was just one on one. It's really frightening to see that mob mentality at work.

I've actually seen the opposite. I've seen everyone scatter and avoid threads with conflict on them and try not to get dragged into it. I've also seen a couple of members who were getting under many people's skin for long enough that multiple people were feeling the same frustration with their posts. I haven't really seen anything resembling mob mentality on GW, but I'm sure that's open to interpretation.