Yet Another Heat Pump Replacement Question

17 years ago

Well-regarded Carrier dealer has suggested Payne PH4A 3T compressor and PH4M variable speed air handler for Tampa-area rental house that might serve as owner retirement home later (resulting in desire for equipment upgrade).

Bid is $5K, all in, including 10 year parts and compressor warranty, 2 year labor warranty,and two visits under their preventive maintenance program (we've used the program and it's a value). Includes removal of the existing equipment.

Given the relatively low equipment cost (probably under $2K) for Payne, the bid seems high, but it's in line with another bid for Goodman equivalent equipment, plus likely a better install. Any thoughts appreciated.

Recognizing the equipment cost is a relatively small part of the bid, it occurs to me to consider upgrading the equipment to mid-grade Carrier pieces, specifically, their Performance line's FV4 fan coil and their 25HPA5 compressor. I will get the upgraded price from my dealer, but thought I should check here first to see what others thought I should expect to pay for the upgraded equipment over the Payne bid (ball park thoughts are fine).

Finally, I'm likely asking the wrong folks, but it occurs to me ask whether it's expected/unusual/forbidden for the homeowner to attempt to negotiate a lower price in the HVAC business. I'm not sure if the bids are pumped a bit in anticipation of a requested reduction, or not. I'd hate to just lay down for the full bid if I don't have to. Also, I understand the bid price typically runs about 300% of the equipment price, but it doesn't take much more time to install the higher-end equipment, so it looks like the seller has some room, especially on the upgraded equipment. I don't want to keep anyone from their just due, I just don't want to overpay.

Thanks for any help.

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Comments (6)

ryanhughes
17 years ago
Around here (Maryland/DC area) that's about the minimum you'd pay for a decent heat pump replacement, but in general Florida sales run cheaper from what I see. You could try negotiating, but the seller may not have room to go lower all costs (company overhead, materials, equipment, labor, etc.) considered. You also won't know what corners will be cut.

I did not think Payne made a variable speed air handler, so may want to check on that.

I would suggest you consider the Carrier Performance line if you stuck with Carrier rather than other brands (don't know how many bids you got). The equipment upgrade costs varies depending on what the dealer has to pay his distributor. I would hope the dealer is willing to give you the equipment upgrade cost only, but often times the prices are marked up to a sort of MSRP for each unit.

For a rental property, a Payne system with a 10-year warranty wouldn't be a bad choice in my opinion, but it wouldn't be the best. I like to see better built outdoor units with louvered coil protection, and Payne's units outside are more basic and low-end. If taken care of, should do the job fine.
maryland_irisman
17 years ago
It never hurts to negotiate. Even in the big box stores you can negotiate if you talk to the right people. Yes, initial rule of the thumb, mark up is 300% of cost. If the work in your area is not very competitive, you may not get much of a discount. If it is competive, you can negotiate a bigger discount. Once you have settled on a price, ask for some "value added" services or products. In other words....why should I give you the job over Joe's company. Don't accept "because we do better work...blah blah blah". Ask for some value added services like 5 years free checkups, upgraded thermostat, upgraded concrete pad, free air filters, etc..you determine what you think would make you feel you are getting more value. A good strong company leaves room for these perks. If no one asks, GOOD, if they do ask, GOOD (word gets around!!!!)And get whatever you agree on in writing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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pumpnheat
Original Author
17 years ago
Thanks to you both for your helpful information. I decided against negotiating for what looks like will be a Carrier Performance compressor with a Carrier Infinity coil. With the available rebates, the extra bump in quality was reachable and the bid for the better equipment didn't seem to increase beyond the equipment cost. In this case, I'll hope to enjoy a better long-term relationship with the long-time Carrier dealer as a result of not trying to work him down on the front end. That's the theory, anyway.

Thanks again for the input.
tigerdunes
17 years ago
pumpnheat

if you elect Carrier's Performance 15 heat pump, you should request the "H" model version plus the tin plated coil for the var speed air handler.

Here are several configurations for three ton systems that will qualify you for the federal energy eff tax credit. all of these are very nice HP systems.

15 SEER, 13 EER, 9 HSPF

2 are with Infinity air handlers, 2 are with Performance air handlers which are fine, all var speed blowers.

1125687 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FE4AN(B,F)005+UI 36000 13.00 15.50 36000 9.00 21800
1125689 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FE4ANB006+UI 36000 13.00 16.00 36000 9.30 21800

1169031 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FV4BN(B,F)005 36000 13.00 15.50 36000 9.00 21800

1125695 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FV4BNB006 36000 13.00 16.00 36000 9.30 21800

numbers from the AHRI HP Directory.

IMO
Good Luck!
garymunson-2008
17 years ago
Living in the Tampa area, you may want to consider a heat recovery unit on the A/C to provide free hot water along with greater A/C efficiency. I've used them for over 20 years with great results.
tk03
17 years ago
The only other thing I can add is don't buy anything if they did not do a heat loss calculation. DO NOT SIZE OFF THE OLD EQUIPMENT!!!! If the older equipment was oversized you will pay for this the life of the equipment. Oversized equipment costs more up front and costs more to operate.