Bob you're my new hero....

No, You're a super hero.
I think we should call you "Techman" and put a big red T on your shirt. hehe just kidding.

Seriously though, whats the point of this thread?
Is it to confirm your claim that all HVAC techs (except you of course) are stupid? There are alot of hacks out there in any trade, not just HVAC.
I've fixed quite a few hack jobs myself and if everything you say is true then yes that guy is just sad. Although I find it hard to believe that he did this in his own house.

People like him get themselves put on 20/20 or dateline and make the rest of us look bad.
Theres alot of us who know what we're doing, care about providing good service and do our best to keep the customers satisfied.
Kudos to you for fixing the mess this guy left behind but there are alot of us that arent idiots.

That 20/20 sting they did a few years ago was a hack. They "bugged" a furnace by simply disconnecting the black wire from the R terminal of the control Xformer and called a bunch of companies to fix it. One company said the pilot burner was defective and it would cost $80 to fix. What they didn't say was that another company fixed it for free because it was just a disconnected wire.

ckmb5150, glad to see somebody else out there sees Mr. Browns true colors. And you live in the same state as him, you should be particularly insulted. According to his preachings every HVAC tech besides him in your state is a @#%*$ idiot! I find that hard to believe in a cooling dominant state. What kind of gratification does a person receive but putting himself on a high pedestal at the expense of his fellow tradesmen?
BTW, not to drift off from the subject here but maybe we should all just take a second and hope one of the good guys in this forum (bama dude) hasn't been effected by that terrible weather down there today.
Hey bama dude, hoping you the best man.

When you jump all over a HO installation, thyis is the counter reply. It ain't the knowledge, it is how much do you care. For many years, used car salesmen were bashed and ridiculed. With the new mega used car sales companies, the used car business is regulating itsself. It wasnt a law or that changed attitudes. It was Toyota, Carmax, Cadillac, and a few companies that did not like being lumped into the mix with all of the bad companies. If you allow the idiots free rein, the overall industry quality drops into the mud. In my area NATE is unheard of. I recently found a company that only hires NATE certified techs. This is far beyond the typical guy. It is more than I have. It seems that I follow in the footsteps of shysters. Every job I seem to get, someone has done something grossly wrong, and charged out the wazoo for thier sorryass work. My next job is to repair a 3 year old system that has never worked properly. Last year the tech recommended replacing the system. When the customer told him the system was new, the tech disconnected motor wires and left the panels off the unit. The tech was a friend? Some friend. I looked at the system, while I was repairing the old dead system, that needed a capacitor. This same tech almost convinced the owner to not use the furnace because the system was too old and might develop a crack. The system is 12 years old. It looks like the duct is collapsed. It aint rocket science. I am not a super tech, just honest. Something missing in this trade.

I passed the NATE and I can't get a job to save my soul.

Bob, you hit the nail right on the head. I've been reading this forum for some time as I've always had an interest in AC work but never ventured into it. Refrigeration and compressors are not rocket science but most HVAC techs would want you to think so. The days of honest work for an honest price with an honest stand behind your work warranty has all but gone out the window. I believe most of the shoddy work seen by yourself and other HVAC gurus are the product of 1 or 2 situations. First is the greedy HVAC company owner who sends a 19-20 year old "tech" out to your home to bid an install and or repair a problem your having with your current system. It's cheap labor for the HVAC contractor but less than quality work for the home owner. Or the HVAC company is sorting out a mess an individual homeowner accomplished trying to do it himself and got in over their heads. I just got 5 bids on a simple change out of a 5 ton split system and they ranged from 15,000.00 to 8,000.00. All using the same equipment. I felt like they must have thought I was an idiot when they told me how they had come to the conclusion on their bids. I'd rather have root canal work than go through that bid thing again. So I'll do my change out myself. I'll purchase my equipment thru someone who is a member of the exclusive HVAC club or perhaps even Ebay, and if I screw it all up the first time I can throw out the equipment and buy more at least 2 times over and still not have spent as much as my bids. I'll find me one of those retired "Real HVAC Techs" that will do all the tieins and put it on line and he or she will be happy for the work and I'll be happy to pay them an honest wage. HVAC folks just need to realize that their profession is not as detailed as heart surgery. You need to move yourself down the pecking order of professions quiet aways. Perhaps along the same lines as used car or gutter salesman

Hey pieinsky, you got alotta balls buddy!! You got some pretty honest technicians in this forum who give their free time to help others out with their heating and cooling problems. Its amazing though how many people come to this forum for help who have less brains then a rock but they're to damn cheap to spend a buck to have it done right or they're so friggin paranoid they think the whole world is out to screw them. Keep in mind its all a two way street. Its amazing how many people have attitudes towards a contractor as soon as he walks in the door. He probably doesn't even want to deal with your kind but if he has to he's gonna make it worth his while. You call that dishonest? I call it pretty slick. Who needs it? You have a right to feel however you want about contractors and you can agree with that air conditioning quack Bob Brown but go do it someplace else. The good guys who spend their valuable free time here deserve better then to listen to to the opinion of an idiot. BTW, I hope you screw your new system up so bad and so many times your local rescue squad has your name on their speed dial. Have a wonderful weekend

Your right--your right MR.HVAC. But attitudes about HVAC contractors is an acquired frame of mind brought on by a professed HVAC contractor that comes into your home and tells you everything you have now installed is a piece of crap and you should give him and his company the opportunity to tear it out and charge you 15,000.00 in the process. It doesn't matter that the 5 ton system has been working fine for 20 years and all you want is a change out. By the way, I've never had a problem with contractors in my professional work or at my home. I'm a good guy, my word is my word and I don't pinch pennies. I've had pool bids, roofing bids, landscaping bids and remodeling bids. All these professions bid and for the most part the bids were all in the ball park of what they all bid. So you picked the one you felt would do you the best job and stand by his word or contract. I've signed plenty of these contracts and have had more work done than I care to remember. HVAC is a different story. Every company has a different story--a different bid and a huge difference in bid price and the length of time to complete.
I think I've made my point earlier and if it offended you, I'm not sorry--just dissappointed in the HVAC profession at this time. But don't worry about me screwing up my system--that'll only happen if I call out the pros

Heating and Air Conditioning IS ROCKET SCIENCE. HVACR is one of the most scientifically demanding trades in America. But it is a service business. As such, it tends to go the way of others. Unfortunately, we do not have enough educated, concerned people and scientists in the trade, and the ones we do have are not paid enough. But this is the American Way these days. In Europe, you still have to spend seven years as a journeyman. Here, you find the cheapest way to get results, then wonder why you didn't get what you need. UH-OH, now we're talking politics. Stop me before I go crazy.

Hey airsome, I'm glad you decided to stick around. And pieinsky, like I said you have a right to your opinions,, in here though you're kicking guys in the pants who don't deserve to hear that BS.

You want to read how the real pros and their attitudes toward a customer about pricing is handled. You will not believe how these guys treat this guy. Here it is:

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=131561

THANK YOU AIRSOME. A.C. is not rocket science. It's much more involved than that. It is " variable " as in a weather change. Too hot, too cool, raining, shady side of the building, sunny side, windy side, no wind, up hill,
down hill, No insulation, too much insulation, too tight,
too loose, ( as in house ), poor install, wrong equipment,
wrong installer, Every install in every home will be different. SO, if this is not rocket science why is every
launch predictable, nothing varies, everything is the same,
and they know the out come before they start and it always
works ? ( well usually ). H.V.A.C. doesn't work that way
and never will. If i hear another ass hole saying HVAC isn't rocket science I'll know they haven't been in the
buisness long enough to know better. Actually they are not
in the buisness or they'd know. Sorry MR. HVAC i couldn't
let this one slide. H.V.A.C. is NOT a D.I.Y. project. I
don't give a sh^%T what anyone says. I've seen home owner
morons put propane in their ac systems because someone told
them propane will give you 44 below 0 F. and they wanted a
cooler house. For all you DIYers out there, good for you.
Give it a shot. you will never know unless you try. If you
screw up call in a pro. We have no idea what you've done
without seeing the install. Your install worked in your
home but may not work in your neighbours home.
just my opinion.

T.T.F.N.
As i figured. i was sensored on the SH*&T word

Why are you so P'd O? If you are a service tech, you think you are treated unfairly. If you are a customer, you think you are treated unfairly. If you are a small businessman, you think you are treated unfairly, and you fear bankruptcy at every turn.
And who do you blame? Who do you point the finger at? Usually it is the last person you talked to. That son of a B!
Well dammit it wasn't him.

Hello,
This is a topic that can be argued for many trades, including rocket science. We lost a crew a few years ago, because the rocket scientists were sloppy.

The skills used to install a system are no where what is needed to launch a rocket, and return the rocket back to earth. The math was developed by Newton and has been improved upon for the last 500 years. The math is very simple in HVAC design in comparison. That is if the installer chjooses to do the math. Unfortantly most of the installers cant do the math if they wanted to do so. HVAC service is a repetive skill. Most manufacturers even use the same color wires for the thermostat. All you have to do, is connect the dots. While I say this, I also believe that HVAC is the most difficult construction trade to get right. Even though all you do is connect the dots, every repairman slips occasionally and does something wrong. The difference between a honest repairman, and a dishonest repairman, is the honest guy will fix the problem before moving on. If you are offended in what I say, look hard at what you object to, and look for the same traits in your habits. You may find them similar.

I thank you for the name change, but I would never consider that counter productive advertizing. If I can help raise the expectations a fraction of an inch before I die, I will be satisfied. Unfortantly this is a thankless job. Everyone is afraid they will be lumped into the bad list. Let the chips fly and lie.

As to NATE certification, If you are older, you will always be the last hired, and the first fired. I realized last year, NO ONE is willing to hire me as a permanent employee. I will have to resume the service business, I so hated. Now If I can just raise my rates to a reasonable level. I am my worst enemy when it comes to billing the customer.

Wow Bob you are bitter. I hate it for you.
Science-wise, one man can launch an ac system. But to be a great technician, he needs just as much education as the rocket scientist living next door. He doesn't have to go to college and grad school, but he has to learn just as much. But nobody gives him that piece of paper. Nobody recognizes him. Nobody pays him $100,000 per year. Mark my words, they soon will, because the demand for his talents increase as the pool shrinks away.

"If i hear another ass hole saying HVAC isn't rocket science I'll know they haven't been in the
buisness long enough to know better."

There you have it folks, These HVAC techs are rocket scientists. WOW!!!

Pat yourself on the back bob, you started a flame war.

bob, ive seen you give some really BAD (and possibly life threatning) advice on this forums so dont throw stones.

Pieinsky, your rants kinda remind me of a electrical engineer we did a HP change out for some years back....

day one:
pull out old system, run new lineset and tie in new outside unit first. guy rants about me not installing filter drier. i show him the drier i bought and try to explain to him that the drier is the VERY LAST thing you install in a refrig system and im gonna install it at the evaporator because the closet is cooler. he obviously doesnt understand and he insists i install it. so install it to pacify him...knowing i have another one in my truck i think to myself "i'll replace this one when i come back outside to leak check and pull a vacuum".
next I go inside to put his new fan coil in the closet and he raises hell about me tearing out his OLD electronic air cleaner and installing a filter base in its place. I tell him the 4" filter base is in the proposal that he approved and his EAC doesnt work. i noticed it was disabled when i tore it out. (the conductors on the cells looked shot) also, his old EAC is alot bigger than the new fan coil and it wont fit. he tells me HE'll make it fit and he asks me to leave. says he'll call me back the next day.

day two:
i return to find this guy has "installed" his EAC and put a piece of plywood on top of it so the fan coil wouldnt fall thru it. so i go about putting the fan coil BACK into the closet. at this point im kinda put off by the fact that i have to follow this guys jerry rigging and because of his "bubble gum and band-aid engineering" i have to toss the duct transition i had built the day before and get our sheetmetal shop to make a new one.
I also try to explain to him that i'll do my best to get his non-working Elec Air Cleaner to function with the new system but cant guarantee it will work and we may have to replace the cells.

afternoon of day two:
new duct transition is tied in, electrical is tied in, controls are tied in, EAC is tied in and new T-stat is tied in.
next step is to install TXV and tie in refrig lines to fan coil. guy notices that the piece of styrofoam carrier used to install on top of the coil for shipping has rubbed about a 1 square inch section of the coil's fins flat. i assure him its no big deal and i can straighten it out with my pocket knife or fin comb. he says that will reduce the structural integrity of the fins, he refuses it and says he wants a new one so i call the shop to inform them of his demands. boss says local carrier distributor is out of slant coils but they can overnight us one. i tell him this and he asks me to leave and return the next day with the new one.

day three:
return with new evap coil and proceed to put it in unit when the guy tells me he changed his mind and doesnt want me to "rig" his new unit by just replacing the coil and wants a whole new fan coil unit instead.
SO, i call my boss again and tell him our customer's NEW demand. after a few choice cuss words that i wont repeat here,(HO and my boss have known each other for years) my boss tells me to tear our equipment out, get the F#@! out of there and dont look back.
I start by removing the fan coil without saying a word and the guy thinks hes getting what he asked for... I load the fan coil in my truck then I go outside and start cutting loose the outside unit. by this time the guy figures out what im doing and asks me "WHAT ARE YOU DOING??!". I politely tell him "sir, with all due respect, i was told to get our units and leave".

He throws a fit, threatens to call the sheriff and kicks me off his property so i leave.

day four:
my boss tells me he came to an understanding with the homeowner and ASKS me to go back and finish. I tell him how I held my tongue, treated the man with respect but got treated like an idiot and if i went back i would probably get the company sued and get myself arrested for assault.

day four continued:
another mechanic went out and finished the job. other tech's helper told me that when they were hooking up the new unit the guy went into his room, came out in his underwear and watched them work on his fan coil in his skivies. I wouldve got up and left right then but they finished the job.

day five:
the old electronic air cleaner in fact DIDNT work and the other crew had to fix it (our boss ate the cost of that just to keep this guy happy).

about 6 or 7 months later:
guy calls for warranty service and asks for me specifically saying how professional my work looked and how polite i was.
I go out and find his coil partially frozen and his outside unit tripping on low pressure. He hasnt cleaned the pre-filters on his air cleaner for roughly 7 months and theyre totally stopped up with dog hair and dirt.
He also politely complains about the periodic popping and crackling sound coming from his elec air cleaner. I tell him thats the sound they make when they DO work. I let his coil thaw, clean his pre-filters, and cells, check charge, superheat and subcooling and CHARGE him $65.

he pays it without question, shakes my hand and even thanks me for coming out on such short notice.

price of original job: $3800

moral of my story:
sometimes no matter how much the pay is, (in this case it was cheap)it isnt worth the hassle. some people want something for nothing and think we should work for minimum wage. opinions like yours insult me considering all the money ive spent on training, all the time and effort getting certifications (NATE included) and continuing education to keep up with the constantly changing technology.
im Studying for my state master hvac contractors license at the moment (after 18 years of working for someone else) which of course will cost me a ton of money to start up, carry 600k+ of insurance, overhead etc..

I will be hungry for work at first when i do start up but id rather starve than do business with a person like you.

The industry sucks. Employers suck. I have had a NATE certification, universal refrigerant certification and a 4 year Bacheolers of Science in HAVC engineering technology since I was 21 and I pick up garbage for $8 an hour. Employers won't hire me or take a second look at me resume, I am either overqualified or dont have enough experience. ASHRAE is an utterly useless organization which doesen't give a crap about the long-term future of the industry, the last ASHRAE meeting I attended I was shunned, and I did not see a single member there under 50. I am sick of the industry, I could really give a crap if people are hot or cold. I am ready to do something different with my life. I come here to help homeowners solve problems and to brush up on my own skills, and yes, to vent.

"Pieinsky, your rants kinda remind me of a electrical engineer we did a HP change out for some years back"
OK guys, I'm sorry, I was venting and should have left out a few of the remarks I made.
ckmb5150, From my rant you assumed I was one of those A--hole homeowners that thinks he knows everything and makes life miserable during install and life even more miserable afterwards. I'm not. Just a homeowner wanting a bid for a system and instead gets a bunch of HVAC techs that I personally picked from the yellow pages that came out and acted like I was some kind of idiot. I picked reputable dealers out of the phone book and was treated with 3 young guys that looked like they may still be in high school and one of the others was smelling like he had just left a bar before he came over.(I drink myself and don't care how drunk you get on your own time) I never said a bad word to any of them, I didn't give off bad vibes I even thought that maybe the HVAC business had been taken over by young guys and I'd give them a chance. But if I told you----Mr HVAC man "I'm looking to change this old system out for a newer better one and higher Seer one to save on electricity and I want to stick with the same brand (I did look to see if they carried that brand before calling and verified it before having them come over) since this one has been working for 20 years with no problems and I'd like to stick with what's been working. That's my only criteria--same brand. You know the rest from my rant---15,000.00 to 8,000.00 and 3 bids in between. I'm not moaning about the cost. Under normal circumstances you would pick the bid or bids in the center (even though this is a big center) and get back with them and do some more talking and then do the job. But you don't do that because one of the middle bids is for a brand of AC that does't come close to what you specified and stated up front that you wanted. You call the company and ask why and they say this is the brand there now selling but if I want my brand it'll be 3,000 more. OK thanks but no thanks and I could on and on and remember these guys are using my time and there time. That's why I said I was tired of the bid business and would find a retired HVAC tech and get the equipment and me be his helper. BTW, My rant was unnecessary. Just venting--I've owned 14 houses over the last 40 years and still own 3. The other 2 I have rented and the HVAC company in that area has been taking care of the systems for 25 years and in both cases has replaced the whole system with a phone call between me and the owner of the HVAC company. I trust him to do what he says he's going to do and he trusts me to send him a check for his services. Those are the kinds of relationships I like but are not to be found in this area. Perhaps if I'd had problems with my current system in the past, I'd found a reputable HVAC company by now and wouldn't need bids. Trust is a big word and means a lot more to a lot of folks than "how much"

Hello pie,
I appreciate you acknowledging the same complaint. The word trust is implied. When someone represents themselves as an expert or someone who is trained to do a particular job, and does not perform as expected, this causes a chasim of trust that is difficult to rejoin.

For those of you who did not understand; Sorry as*ed workers ruin this profession for everyone.

I spent 10 years qworking with the same customers. Some of them I had to teach to be honest with me. I developed friendships with all of the customers. Friendships that would help me if a asked. (I think) The friendships were based on trust. Honesty also helped.

I started by fixing junk machines that others tried to repair. I did not have a clue, but I kept at it until I did. I tried to be squeaky clean honest when dealing with customers.

I bought a new customer this last week. I will soon have more work than I can possibly do. It started with an honest repair. I lost money on the job, as to hours I worked vs hours I was paid. I already have the option doing more types of work than I care for.

I corrected a self-proclaimed expert's kluged system. I worked hard to rewire the system. I was not as good as I thought I was. I finally finished the work, without overchanging the customer. I lothe this kind of work, but I seem to have a new customer. I would rather do zoning meetings or solve building restrictions, like I did Tuesday, but it is not part of Gods plan for me.

For all of you who do not believe in my claims; Prove me wrong. All the talk in the world without proof is only chatter. Remember, asking me to prove my self is not the answer. The correct way is to prove me wrong.

I am neither a visonary or the very best of anything. I do not like to fight windmills, but thiefs and dishonesty disturb me. I will always fight this problem. Too many people gloss over this problem and say it is as it is, and nothing will ever change. Honesty is always the best policy.

Damn,how did I miss this thread.Bob is off his meds again I see.The tornado missed us here but thanks for thinking of my well being MrHavac.Prayers for the kids in eneterprise al.

Bob, as long as I've been involved with this forum I've seen you give poor advice, not all the time mind you, but you do have a tendency to have to contribute to many posts whether you know anything about the particular situation or not. And many times you prove to us knowledgeable people that you should just pass the post over. Another thing you are famous for is climbing up on your high pedestal and preaching how you are so above most technicians. Do us a favor, preach that locally by another means instead of this forum. Nobody cares bob, not me in northern New England, nor the guys from the mid west to the boys down in the southeast or the mid Atlantic states to Mr. kalining up there in the Artic and everybody in between. I'm not into psycology or anything but I really have to wonder just what kind of person enjoys claiming just how high and mighty he is in his chosen field to a bunch of people hanging around in a darn forum who really could give a rats a-- less!
Enough bob, offer help when something you have knowledge or experence in comes up, and do it without all the preachings about how others are just a bunch of bimbos not worthy enough to even hold your flashlight. Off advice then shut up! And if you can't contribute something of use to the poster,,,, again,,, shut up. It's really getting old.

blacknumber1...$8 an hour? picking up garbage? literally? You can't live on $8 an hour anywhere.

My buddy was telling me about a job at the school district, for a HVAC man at the various schools in the district, that they can't find anybody for because it only starts at $18 and goes up to $23 after a few years. They hired one guy and he had no clue what he was doing, but they wouldn't fire him; (union) but he finally quit. So the search begins again.

All the techs I know make alot more than $18, so why take a pay cut (their opinion).

Maybe you need to relocate.

By the way, in the heating oil end of the business, age doesn't matter much. There is a shortage of skilled people in eastern PA.

"Prayers for the kids in eneterprise al."
They are up in this neck o' the woods bud, glad you are safe though.

I'm on unemployment now for a few more weeks, I am supposed to get a job doing grounds maintenance but it's only $9 an hour.

blacknumber, just curious, do you live out in the middle of nowhere or something where there isn't a market. Its one of the most employable trades around. What about side work?

I live in MI where the housing market sucks. Every time I have tried to get an HVAC job they tell me I am either overqualified or I dont have enough experience. I went to a 4 year university to study HVAC design and was told there were 25 jobs for every grad, only to graduate and find there was nothing and that I had wasted 4 years and countless dollars on a useless degree which was so overspecialized that I couldn't get a job to make ends meet, let alone a real career. I am frankly sick of HVAC and really want nothing more to do with it.

Hello BN,
You might like it in Texas. There is something for everyone. Someone like you should do good in HVAC here. becoming a licensed contractor can begin at home, over the internet. Testing is done in Austin, but MI might have a reciprocal agreement with Texas. And then you could move to Texas for a few months to see if you like it. There are mountains, forests, plains, beaches, hot weather, cold weather. The only thing missing is snow up to your A*s. For any experience expect to earn double what you are expecting to earn now. The next month is the time to be hired for summer. I understand MI is a beautiful place, but sometimes you have to experience a new beginning. You do not need a license to do work in Texas, it just allows more freedom. There are a lot of people living in Texas that came here a few years ago when times were bad there.

As to BX, I do not try to insult you openly, but I guess you see different. Ignorance is no excuse, and trying to insult me to make yourself feel better is not the way to succeed in life. I hope you get a chance to learn. I have seen posts you have made that skirt my most important beliefs, and you agree with the principals. I am truly sorry you are so ignorant. I give up on you.

Intellect is important in life. It allows one to learn from mistakes. It aint rocket science.

ckmb, I enjoyed reading about your adventure.

I worked in Washington DC for about a year and absolutely hated it, I did not like anything about that place. Mostly I can't take the heat. I complain when it gets above 70. I don't think I would do well in a Texas summer.

bob brown, I am not ignorant, I only advise on things I have knowledge and experience in. That is not the case with you. And why is it everytime you contribute something to a post you have to include a few more literary blocks to make your pedestal even higher. The majority of my work was in the commercial/industrial aspect of the trade and the environment I've worked in has been minus 25 degrees in howling wind and snow blowing sideways all the way up to lugging 06E Carlyles, (do you know what they are bob?) halfway across a multi acre mall roof to get them to an engine hoist which is how we set them in the unit when it was 95 degrees with 85% humidity in full sun. I've also logged more then enough hours doing things like lugging 5 gallon containers of diesel fuel down into dingy dirt floor cellars and rigging up temporary oil lines just to get the heat going in a house when the oil gelled and the outside installed oil tank is buried in an 8 foot snow drift and I don't feel like shoveling cause it's 3 in the morning and the answering service wants me to call them!
This is a small example of the type of work I did for the last 30+ years bob. I don't mention this to place myself on a pedestal like you do. I do it here only to show you that I've been exposed to things in this profession that your somewhat off kilter mind couldn't even imagine living down there in that land of big braggers and no A/C liscenses.
I take comfort in the fact that no matter kind of trash you try to write about me here, the contributors in this forum who really know whats going on know the difference between you and me.
When you can contribute to this forum in the proper manner, show some respect to your fellow tradesman by not putting them down constantly, and most importantly quite trying to come across as the grand messiah of air conditioning, then I will gladly cease this battle between you and me and let you contribute to this forum just like the normal people do.

From the estimates I have gotten and the people that have come out to "represent" a company I must say I was disapointed.

If you'r a company owner please don't send out the new guy or a guy that smells or has dirt pants on or a guy that says he'll put a cold air return on for me ... when I already have one.. it's right in front of the furnace filter.
So what I ended up with was a guy that sounded and looked and acted like he knows what he was doing.

If any of you guys need a job please come to Ohio. Most of the guys on this forum could do a very good job and represent a company properly. Or start your owne company.

Thanks for all your help guys, I would like to see everyone working.

Scott

I'm sorry airsome...but to compare HVAC to rocket science or brain surgery is just plain wrong. As bob_brown pointed out, sending launching a rocket and returning it safely to Earth is a lot more intense than doing a Manual J or D.

Kalining, you mentioned that HVAC is "more involved" than rocket science. You list several "variables to support you view. Well...rocket scientists have a load of variables to deal with, as well.

Before a spacecraft even leaves the ground, Terrastrial weather (including windspeed/direction, temperature, and barometric pressure), gravity (from the Earth and our moon), "space junk" already in orbit, and even avian migratory flight patterns must be considered. Imagine losing a billion-dollar spacecraft because a bird hit it on the way up.

The spacecraft itself must operate continually from sea-level atmosphere to the vacuum of space - a transition which takes only a few minutes. The temperature drop is also extreme.

Let's not forget that any spacecraft burns most of it's fuel leaving Earth. To conserve what little remains, the vehicle relies on the gravitational fields of planets, moons, asteroids, and even comets for course corrections or changes in trajectory. Mastery of high-level calculus is needed to make all of this work.

Remember the Apollo 13 mission? Talk about unforseen variables! The rocket scientests guided the crew of that crippled spacecraft home with slide-rules and a computer with less mojo than a '486 desktop.

If the calculations were just a little off, there would have been no second chance. The crew of Apollo 13 would still be at their posts today - and perhaps the next 100,000 years to come.

With HVAC, you get second chances. You can tweak a system to improve performance. You can change nozzles to achieve a different burn-rate. Ductwork can be changed and dampers added. It need not be absolutely perfect the first time.

I know you're gonna' say in improperly installed system can kill you just as dead as a failed rocket. Yet so can improper torque on lug nuts after replacing a flat. The risk of death doesn't elevate a trade to the level of rocket science.

I think what makes HVAC somewhat unique is that it's an amalgam of science, art, and experience. All three skills are needed for a job to come out right. I think that's what you were hinting at, Kalining. In addition, proper training and experience endows a pro with the skills to work on a variety of systems, and to do it quickly.

However, that doesn't mean that a DIYer can't do work that equals that of a pro. It does mean that the knowledge of someone like me will be limited to the specific system I studied up on. It also means that any problems I encounter will have to be thought through; I won't have experience on my side to "automatically" point me toward a solution. Furthermore, the project will take me far longer than someone who does this for a living. That's where experience - and a proper set of tools - kicks in.

Finally, had I screwed up, I would have swallowed my pride and called in a pro. I would not have told him how to finish the job. I would have had my chance, and blown it.

I've more to say. However my typing sucks and I've things to do. I'll ramble on later.

Peace.

Marco

Hey marco, thats a pretty good explanation there. Once you got past all that outer space horsecrap anyway! :-0 :-) Geez for a minute there I thought I logged onto some NASA forum or something.
I agree, HVAC work is not rocket science "BUT" when an HVAC contractor screws up there are two ways to deal with it. The contractors who wear the white (good guy) cowboy outfits come and make it right,, the contractors who wear the black (bad guy) cowboy outfits quietly slip off into the sunset, bag o money in hand and bandana around face never to rise with the sun again. Now a rocket scientist learns of all the sophisticated tools he has at his disposal the most important one is his index finger. With it, when things go wrong he can calmly profess to his innocence on the screw up but still point out all the others who are responsible.
SMACK, BOING!!!!!! Hey, I just realized something. Bob Brown must really be a rocket scientist!!! WOW!
And leave our friend kalining alone, where he lives its the same temperature as the moon so if he says he's a rocket scientist I believe him. LOL Moon bob brown for us greg!

"If you'r a company owner please don't send out.... a guy that smells or has dirt pants on"

You can't always judge a book by its cover and I know full well about first impressions.

There is a local guy, a one-man operation in the fuel oil business for over 25 years, who has, at last count, 600 customers. All he does is sell, install, maintain and service oil units. He's always a little ratty looking, might even have a smudge of soot on his face and a bit of fuel oil for deoderant, but his reputation for HONESTY, fair pricing to all, especially to retired people, and quality work, has earned him abundant rewards and reputation.

"So what I ended up with was a guy that sounded and looked and acted like he knows what he was doing."

Congratulations! I hope he isn't the snake oil salesman.

I agree with you totally baymee, maybe not for sales but for the guy who comes out to service that equipment. OK if he looks and smells like he just crawled out of a septic tank thats one thing, but if he comes in all nice and clean and looks like one of them thar "fancy behind a desk sittin fellers" I'd really wonder about the experience of the person working on my burner. I think oil burner technicians are the only ones who keep their laundered work clothes in the van instead of hanging them in the closet.

Strangely I don't like seeing shiny new HVAC vans, I would rather have a tech come out in a beat-up 1989 Ford Econoline because it means he actually works. Theres a company around here who has techs driving around in brand-new PT cruisers, I think they're ugly and not a good work vehicle. Work trucks are supposed to look like they do work.

From the sound of what you describe he was most likely an installer that knew just enough to f*ck it up. I am a technician here in Fort Worth and if I saw someone doing work like that they wouldn't be working for our company any more and if I saw this I sure would contact the State Board of licensing and Regulation in Austin.

Just my opinion,don't judge us all by a handful of idiots out there. Most of us work hard and try to give the customer a professional job with quality workmanship.

My real point is that I would value someone with good proven character more than his looks. This is off topic.

Recently a guy who works for a local dealer came in for some stoker parts. He does alot of free or low cost work in the coal regions for elderly. As you may know, there is little money up there and he has a burden for those elderly people.

I gave him a free pack of sheer pins and sent him on his way.

This same guy was hunting and a stray bullet hit a pregnant girl in the head. He could have gotten away but he turned himself in with his gun. She survived, delivered normally, but then came the lawsuit. He had no lawyer for the trial nor for the civil suit. He was pennyless and he looked it.

However, this man would be the ideal choice to have honest work done, compassionate for the elderly, and never going to get rich. This is the man I would have do my work, if I needed it.

His character was gold, even if he had none.

Thats a good story baymee, boy you never know whats in store for you around the bend huh?
Good point too airsome. Thats what I'm trying to get across to bob brown. Just because he might have come across a hack or two once in a while (and who among us hasn't?) isn't any reason for his using this forum as a sounding board accusing every tech out there of being sub standard. It make my blood boil when he does that.

Hello Mr. HVAC
(a name that sounds like the Grand Puba of HVAC)
I am sure I have more stupid stories than you could imagine also; Just not me. If I need to put equipment on a roof, I hire a crane. Done it, been there. I have to admit, I have the training to be a rocket scientist, I lived in Houston for many years, where rocket scientists exist in great quantities, but I work on practical equipment. I attended the same engineering college that produces many scientific workers at NASA. I have performed muck level jobs, I love the smell of oil and grease. I also design and build devices. I know how to read technical data; which seems to be a problem with many HVAC workers in Texas. I tried to discuss technical aspects with this forum multiple times, but you werent interested. I was willing to try. The best you could offer was comments on my alleged drug usage. Kinda lame in my opinion. I guess you fall into the reading challenged category. You have been working like a pack mule longer than I have worked with HVAC, from your admissions. I wouldn't want to brag. When I need manual labor, I hire workers ALWAYS. If I need to do a labor intensive job in an emergency, I still hire workers. I have hired temp workers walking by a job at midnight and put them to work immediately. I think like a boss, not a worker in that aspect. I guess that comes from many years of operating my own business. Think smart, try to never repeat mistakes, and NEVER lie to the customer. I still think that if I can teach you, I can teach anyone. You are an opinionated hard case that is living in your dreams. I hope you are happy; I have dropped to your level with this post.

As to advising on issues, if I do not have direct experience; I don't advise. It must be mind boggling to you, to imagine my qualified experience level in so many areas. As a service provider/ owner, I did a lot of varied work. Just because you donÂt agree with me does not immediately make me wrong. It does show poor judgment on your part, to claim I am wrong.

For the people that write me, or are considering writing me; I am always willing to help, but I do not feel it is appropriate to troll this site for work. If I give referrals to anything, I do not profit from the referral. IMO, this is bad business. Others can do as they wish.

When I started posting on this site, it was not for any ego gratification. It was to show potential employers my troubleshooting skills and general knowledge. I found that I like helping people in need. I mention this site (Garden Web) to all that can benefit. I do not post very much on the other site, that has a lot of commercial and large equipment workers. I do post where appropriate. Funny I donÂt get negative comments on that site. Only pros are allowed. I would probably stop posting entirely on that site if some of the guys were like this site. I have asked the same questions, and of skill level there also.

I wish this thread would die already. Bob is right, all the rest of us are idiots.

HAIL BOB!

Bob is a rocket scientist,computer service engineer,boiler control expert,industrial control instructor,machine cleaner,electrical lighting and fan installer,refrigeration guy,dc plant installer,ventilation system for dc plant installer,device builder,S.E.E.R. rating expert,water cooled condenser expert,variable speed expert,HVAC expert,a employer of manual labors even at midmight,the guy that corrects other techs srew ups, visits another site where only pros are allowed and they love him.Why the hell are you still here because we think your full of sh#t.

Maybe I am full of Sh*t. Maybe the truth is close to fiction. Maybe it takes one to know one. MAYBE I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG....

Bob, my handle is mr havac, kinda like as in creating havac, get it? a little play on words there bob, ah forget it.
Ok this is my vary last comment on this subject but it was a nice break playing kill the man with the ball with all you guys,, put your ball away now bob
FYI the originator of this whole fiasco posted at these times. Fri. 3/2 @ 1:11pm again Sat. 3/3 @ 2:30 pm and lo and behold, Mon. 3/5 9:30 am. The vast majority of the rest of the posts from everyone else, mostly later evening,, hmmmm, must be running back to the computer in between fixing all those Texas hacks screw ups down there. ;-)
Thats it. This idiots done too. So much for my encounter with an alien. HAIL BOB

I thought Bob was bitter. He wasn't the only one. What are some of those other heating and air forums to post on?
...
When you slam someone, no matter how good or bad he may or may not be, you slam yourself.
When you act in anger, you display your lack of professionalism.
...
When you show your disgust with the status quo and suggest no viable answers, you in effect say there is no hope.
If you have no hope, why should I follow you?

I think we're all "full of it" from time to time. Mr. Havac and Bob and Airsome and all of you -- you give all this technical BS but none of you ever get down to the small things like how to navigate your attic when it's just had 16" of blown in insulation installed. None of you told me I should wait on that until after I had my new systems installed in the attic. I don't suspose any of you techs have fallen through a ceiling have you? Right over the second story stair well to boot. Thank god and greyhounds there was 12-2 romex, tv cable and multiple old and new telephone cable running in that area and with all them coupled together could catch a 250 pounder in a free fall. Getting free of all that mess was a chore as I haven't done a pull up on a bar or in this case a 2 X 8 in about 40 years. As I'm retired and most of the time "home alone", it dictated the neccesity to do a full pull up with the recessed pocket lite nearest me sparking as I'd jerked the romex partially out of the can and everytime I pulled or jerked it set off more fireworks. I did get myself out, made it to the doctors office, had the doc look me over to make sure I wasn't going to die from wounds I couldn't see. After getting back to the house, I noticed the mess I'd made and this was not going to be an easy fix. (none of you talk about this repair) Instead of the hole I opened up in my ceiling acting like a black hole and sucking things in to it's vortex, it belched out half the blown in insulation that had just been blown in there. That insulation cascaded down the stairwell and was piled up like snow drifts around everything on the first floor. And you should have seen the second floor since that's where it orginated.
So how does that commercial go---sheetrock repair & repaint ceiling and redo the whole game room ceiling to match---500.00----rewire and trace all cables in attic 650.00---clean up----150.00---doctors visit plus xrays 268.00. 2 Broken ribs and not being able to do anything for awhile ---priceless---By the way, I know I wasn't being punished for my earlier rant about all HVAC techs being scammers as I'd talked my old contractor into coming North and doing the job. All I was doing was going into the attic to change out a bulb. I wasn't touching my system then or hadn't planned on it in the future.

Pie...you gotta' be kidding me...

Are you placing the blame on your mishap because someone on this forum recommended blown attic insulation? Are you implying that someone here should have warned you to do any above ceiling projects before the insulation was blown?? Did you really think that you needent step on the joists anymore because you couldn't see them??? Out of sight, out of (your) mind, I guess.

Next time you're up in the attic, look at the roof. Try not to hurt your head on the roofing nails above. See all those 2x8s coming down from the peak. Those are rafters. Now follow those rafters to the "floor" of your attic that's covered with insulation. Where each opposing set of rafters meets this "floor" a 2x8 ceiling joist will be attached. Those will be the safe places to step or kneel with your 250-pound frame.

Yes...the previous paragraph contained sarcasm. I hope you got it.

you see...I'm talking form experience here. My home had originally almost no ceiling light fixtures. So when I decided to replace the inferior R11 insulation in the attic, I thought "Hey...now's a good time to electrify the ceiling". So I drilled holes, added switches, ran wire, nailed j-boxes, and installed ceiling lamps and fans. THEN I put in R38 fiberglass insulation. Guess who told me to do all the electrical work before insulating my attic???

Nobody.

Instead, I used that mental gift unique to Homo-Sapiens known as "common sense". I just thought it would be a whole lot easier to work up there without maneuvering around batts and breathing in the fibres.

I've been up there since I laid the insulation, and guess what? The batts are several inches taller than my ceiling joists. This means I can't readily see the ceiling joists anymore. So I'm gonna' blame the manufaturer for obstucting my view if I step through the ceiling. That's more sarcasm, BTW.

I now understand why a lot of the pros hesitate to give advice. People like you make it tough for people like me to get the answers I need to do things right.

Following advice - good or bad - doesn't mean you can throw common sense out the window. Yet if you do, at least make sure it's open. Yup...sarcasm again.

Peace.

Marco

Hey Marco---it was a joke a true joke though. I was blasting these guys earlier in this thread about how I got a bunch of idiot HVAC tech's out at my house giving me bids and even though I had said I was going to do it myself, I hired a contractor that I was familiar with and talked him into bringing 1 of his crews to my area and doing an install. If I'd known my AC was going to crap out when it did, I wouldn't have had the insulation installed at that time and then again I might have done it anyways. I have a beautiful sturdy walk way up there and it's totally exposed. I was looking up at those "rafters" you were talking about that are 14 feet over my head ---I was worried about hitting my head as I'm 15 feet tall and bullet proof and looked off a little and stepped of the board walk. I've been in my attic a thousand times and at least 25 times since the insulation was blown in. It was a joke on me and as I had been giving those guys a hard time, wanted them to know I did contract my AC job to the pros and how I had been stupid for 1 second while in the attic and went through the ceiling. Only an idiot would have taken anything other than that from my remarks.

Pie...

I apologise for not getting the joke.

I apologise for being an idiot, as well.

Peace.

Marco