mark

do you mind stating area of country you live?

and what size living area will these units serve?

these are my personal minimum specs for high eff HPs

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF-AHRI certified
best matching var speed air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for rated size
r-410 refrigerant
new properly sized refrigerant linesets
scroll compressor preferred
electronic defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips

I think expensive two stg condensers like the 20i are overpriced,overkill and unnecessary for most homeowners.

my personal favorites are the following:

Trane XL15i or sister mdl AmStd Heritage 15

Carrier Performance 15 "H" mdl or sister mdl Bryant Preferred 15 "H" mdl.

do I understand you have existing zoning controls for both downstairs and upstairs?

IMO

Thanks for your response. Answer to your questions.

1) I live in Southeastern PA.
2) My home is 3,200 square feet.
3) Home does have two zones(up and down). Each system is complete unit that runs indepentdently of the other.

One of the reasons I was considering the Trane 16i and 20i is that I understand each unit would have up to 3 ton capacity(currently each of my units is 2.5 ton) so they could handle hotter and colder weather better but in most cases run in the lower tonage.

I am also considering adding heat and a/c in my finished basement and supplying it from the first floor zone. HVAC company tells me I would definitely need the additional capacity of a 3 ton unit.

I also continue to ask myself why not just replace my units with new single stage units like I currently have as they have serviced me well for 22 years but then wonder for just a few bucks more if I'm not better getting these new higher tech and more efficient Trane units with Comfort-R technology, on board diagnostics, etc.

Do these new high tech units with all the extra technology have the same reliability record as a simple heatpump like the Trane XL15i?

Thanks for your time.

With zoning, look at the capability of the zone panel. I'd want something that handled zoning based on the number or percentage of zones calling so you didn't end up on high capacity without the airflow capability. It may mean a panel replacement. We just had to do this on a 2 stage 90% furnace that would time to high with just 1 zone calling and overheat. We replaced their old panel with a new one that wouldn't allow high unless both zones were open. Same thing can be done with a 2 stage heat pump system. The 16i runs 75-80% capacity on low so not much difference between it and a single stage. The 20i is more like 50-55% on low so a real difference.

If you look at the heating performance (and efficiency too) of the 16i, it is poor. The 15i is SO much better. I would go for it over the 16i anyday.

There is a lot of stuff in the 16i and 20i. I wouldn't touch without a 10 year labor warranty to match the 10 year parts.

Thanks for your feedback. I think I may have confused the subject by using the word "zone". I have two completely separate systems(hp, air handler and thermostat) one for second floor and one for first floor and was interested to hear if I would be creating any issues by replacing both of my systems with dual stage heatpump systems? Should I still be concerned about replacing the panel as not sure what that means?

The specs I have for the trane 16i indicate a seer rating of 17 and hspf of 9.2 and eer or 12. The 20i ratings are 18.7 seer, 9.0 hspf and 13 eer.

I'll take another look at the 15i as an option. Maybe a two stage system on the second floor(does most of the work in summer months) and a single stage systerm(15i) for first floor?

2 stage would be a comfort option. I don't forsee any issues with doing it in 2 separate zones; it's done that way all the time for high-end systems. If going with a 2-stage system, I would consider the 20i before the 16i, just a better unit with better staging (50%/100% capacity split--more dehumidification as well). The 15i is also a great unit and would be my choice were it not the 20i.

Thanks for the feedback. I was considering the 20i for my first floor unit and the 16i as my second floor unit. The 20i runs about $1,000 more then the 16i. Is it worth the extra $1,000 to get the 50%/100% capacity split for both up and down systems rather than one system with an 80/20 split?

If I go with the 20i and 16i instead of two 20i systems, what floor would you recommend the 16i be used for? I was thinking second floor as that floor require more capacity all the time vs first floor could probably run at 50% more often then the second floor could.

Thanks for your feedback.

If the 20i carries that big of a premium, I'd be looking at just having 2 XL15i's properly sized for each floor. 2-stage has advantages but I don't think $1000 worth per unit. The XL15i is a great single stage unit. Your reasoning between the XL20i and XL16i for each floor is logical, if you were to go that route. I'd see what your dealer says.

In your opinion, what are the biggest advantages of the two stage units? The efficiency ratings seem much higher then single stage units and the units I'm looking at are the communicating models which I believe can better control humidity, temperature, etc?

Other big advantages? If not to your point maybe I should consider the 15i units from Trane or the Lennox XP-14 units I mentioned in a previous message.

Thanks.

The ability to run on low stage is the big advantage, which allows for more comfort by running longer and removing more humidity. But the low stage isn't very impressive in the 16i, as the capacity is not that much different from stage 1 from what I understand and the humidity removal capacity (latent heat capacity) not so great either from what I understand. I personally would not even consider the XL16i--just doesn't have the specs I would look for in a 2-stage unit. You're right, the efficiencies are better, but if you're looking at the 3 ton XL15i and XL16i, both have stellar efficiency figures when used with the right indoor air handler. The XL20i would be a much better option if going 2-stage, with 2 compressors for better staging and more comfort.

What I would be considering:
- XL15i with 4TEE variable speed air handler and Honeywell VisionPRO IAQ thermostat to control humidity
- XL20i with 4TEE variable speed air handler (communicating) and TCONT900 thermostat to control

Thanks for the feedback. I was not aware that I could use a variable speed air handler with a single stage heat pump like the 15i. I have a quote of $5,800 for that unit with a non-variable speed air handler. The cost difference between the 15i and the 20i is $1,600 and between the 16i and 20i is $1,000.

Total cost for two 20i units: $14,400
Total cost for one 20i and one 16i: $13,600
Total cost for one 20i and one 15i: $13,193
Total cost for two 15i units: $11,600
Total cost for two Lennox XP-14: $10,554

Wouldn't be much point in not using a variable speed blower with the XL15i, since if you use the standard 4TEC blower you'll get little over 13 SEER.

On first glance, your pricing looks very good for whichever route you go. I would make certain all setups include the variable speed blower. Yes, it is beneficial with or without a 2-stage unit.

Did these companies present themselves competently and professionally? Did they inspect the ductwork and make certain you were getting the correct tonnage? These are the first steps to having an efficient, long-lasting system.

I had three different companies quote and the quotes mentioned are from my current HVAC company that has been servicing my units for the past ten years. The quotes and recommendations were from my service tech who has been servicing my units for the past nine years.

No one has done a review to determine the correct tonage. They are just working from my current system tonage which is two 2.5 ton units.

I'm leaning toward spending the extra money to get the two stage units as it sounds like they may provide overall better comfort. The 20i qualifies for the fed credit and there is another rebate from the state of pa for $500 so I could put in two 20i units for $12,400.

Curious about your opinion the life expectancy of the two stage units vs the single stage units. Seems like they would last longer given there are two compressors(20i) sharing the workload?

My current units are Lennox(22years old) so also keep thinking the single stage units worked well for all these years so maybe just stay with single stage new units and keep it simple.

The new technology on the 20i sounds impressive though.

Thanks for all your feedback today. Appreciate your help.

I can't really comment on the life expectancy because I'd have to see it to believe it, so to speak. Compressors are built to run 24/7. It's the starting and stopping that puts the wear and tear on them. That's why I'm still skeptical of the Carrier Infinitys that use the bristol, which restart to switch stages.

The XL20i technology of 2 compressors impresses me as well. The one thing that concerns me is that (and hopefully Baldloonie, a professional in the field, will come by to give his thoughts) if a problem arises, there is the "possibility" of having to replace both compressors. I would not let this stop you from buying an otherwise great unit.

mark

so with the 20i, where is the beef? what do you get? THe 20i is Trane's update of the 19i. You get the R-410a refrigerant, you get the communicating technology which is Trane's attempt to close the wide gap with Carrier's Infinity systems/controls. and of course the heavy price. But what about improved performance/efficiency numbers? it looks rather mediocre to me.

And the 20i only comes in full ton sizes from 2 ton to five ton. Has dealer verified the sizing on your ductwork?

I still would prefer the 15i with HW VisionPro IAQ stat.

see link on the Communicating technology.

IMO
Good Luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: Trane Communicating systems

Thanks for the feedback. The dealer has not verified the sizing of my ductwork but I will have him do that. When we had our original discussion my current service tech from the dealer suggested a two stage unit like the 20i or 16i particularly for my second floor system as he said he felt my home would benefit from the additional capacity of a 3 ton two stage unit(currently have two systems both single stage 2.5 ton units) in efficiencies since the upstairs systems works extremely hard all summer. I asked if my duct work could handle and about over sizing and he said that the 3ton two stage units would run at same or less tonage most of the time.

My dealer also gave me a quote for the Lennox XP-14-030 with CBX27UH-030 air handler heatpump systems as another alternative in addition to the Trane 15i?

Any thoughts on this Lennox configuration as an alternative to the Trane 20i?

mark

not a fan of Lennox HPs altho the XP14 is a good mdl but IMO does not compare to the XL15i.

Here are your AHRI HP Directory matching numbers.

1292342 Active Systems XP14 SERIES LENNOX INDUSTRIES, INC. XP14-030-230* CBX27UH-030-230*+TDR 28600 12.50 15.00 27800 8.50 16600

1382160 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5030A1 4TEE3F39A1 30000 13.00 15.75 30000 9.00 18000

3221082 Active Systems XL20I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWZ0036A1 4TEE3C04A1 36600 13.00 18.60 35200 9.00 19400

Still recommend a properly sized XL15i over the XL20i.

IMO

Thanks for the info. You got me thinking I could be oversizing my home with a two stage unit since they only come in 2 ton , 3 ton ,etc.

How does a dealer determine if the duct size in my home is correct for a higher tonage then the 2.5 ton units that I currently have? Do they measure all the duct work?

Do you agree with my service tech's opinion that my duct work is fine for a slightly larger unit such as a two stage 3 ton unit because it is running at less then full capacity most of the time?

what are the problems with duct work not able to handle the larger air flow of a system like the 3.0 ton unit?