The lineset isn't the only problem. Size of wiring will also need to be increased. Duct will need to be increased.

Running a new lineset on the outside of the brick into the attic to the unit is an everyday deal. Cover the larger pipe with foam insulation, tywrap the two pipes together, and run new electric control wire with the bundle. Cover the lines outside with guttering or a downspout. Attach to the wall.

You can pump down the majority of the freon by closing the small valve on the condenser, run the condenser until it groans, then close the large valve. Turn off the compressor now. This will trap the majority of the freon. Recover the remaining freon.

Texas requires a CFC certificate to work with freon and devices that hold freon. Don't get caught.

When you read the posts about different brands, no one has much good to say about Janitrol, but your system has lasted longer than 95% of all brands. Most TRANE equipment will fail several times during your equipments lifespan.

I don't beleive I've ever seen a 20 year old goodman around that's still working!?
Anyway- So your going to add 1.5 tons to your home and you have no idea what the home requires?
Do you know the code requirements?
Do you have the knowledge of the proper way to install, set up the return, supply, drain, gas?, electric, and evacuate, solder/braze, the proper type copper elbows, ect?
Do you have the tools?
I've had to fix many a system that never worked right, wasted energy, was the wrong sized system and was short lived because of bad installations from poor a/c companies, much less a homeowner who has no idea what he is getting into.
The very fact you want to increase the size of the system that much, don't know about the wiring and don't have the tools tells me you had better get help. It takes many years and experience to do this job and do it right and you won't want to experiment on your home.

I know you guys think IÂm an idiot. ThatÂs ok but let me try to clear up a few things.

- The size of the original house w/ 3.5T unit was 1900sqft.
- I added 500sqft 6 years ago and system runs 24/7 during this time of year.
- 2400sqft @5 tons ~ 480/ton @4 tons ~ 600/ton. Tell me which????
- This house is all electric and a Heat Pump will replace existing Heat Pump
- Condenser sits 20Â from Air Handler which sits in a closet in the garage.
- Line set runs under foundation to the closet. Not up into the attic.
- I can sweat pipe, have lots of tools but, have no intentions of evacuating or pumping r22 back into the new system myself.

The basic idea is I want to buy a Rheem heat pump ~ $2500. Do the physical install of the outside / inside, tie the plenum into the new air handler, run a new line set (if you guys would ever tell me how?) and sweat the ends in. ThatÂs all I would do.

Then IÂd call Joe and say heyÂ. For $500 would you come over hook up electrical and pressurize the system. IÂd also get him to evacuate prier to the removal of the old one. You guys may think IÂm nuts but I think the quotes IÂve gotten are nuts ~ $6k - $7.5K. Paying someone $3K - $4K for one day worth of labor doesnÂt make since and Joe would be happy for $500 for a ½ days worth of work.

Thanks for any ideas or opinions (Good or bad)
Dave

"Did you know that it is illegal for you to even have a unit with refrigerate in it in your possession?"

Not under Federal law.

I would not come to your home and finish the job unless I were able to correct anything that is not up to code- because once I touch it- I'm responsible for it. If you do anything that is not code and the house burns down or you are injured- who are they going to come after once you tell them that I worked on it? I would not risk my business for that.
There will be no warranty on the system either parts or labor.

I worked on a new customers 2 systems today.. She believes in TRANE. The equipment was Carrier/Goodman. The TRANE guy that serviced her equipment last week, told her all was ok, but the equipment was junk. Then charged her several hundred dollars for his services. I was called in because one unit would not run for the last week. (Since the TRANE guy sabotaged the system) I added 4.5 pounds of Freon, then spent about an hour looking for a leak. I didn't tell her the previous guy tried to hose her. I will let her find that out on her own. The second system is overcharged out the wazoo. I was only called out for the dead system. I fixed the system. I told her to call me if the system stopped cooling in the next few days. How does this action make me a jackleg?

The man I am working for on this job charged her $10 per pound of f22. My last 5 jobs were at $6 pound. The new price will require me to go up a couple of dollars. When I was in Goodman returning an extra part, I had to pay a fuel surcharge on top of the price of the Freon. I paid and will increase the price of Freon. Just not to $50 per pound, as the salesman at Goodman recommended. I refuse to screw people, just because I can. This is what I have commented on for the last couple of years on this site.

I have probably spent more time in research for ways to increase efficiency of systems, than any service tech. I have a 12 year old research program, which has given me many insights that guys should know, but rarely acknowledge as truth.

When I set up my sales site, I will offer systems at reasonable prices. But you will have to show proof of a CFC certificate to purchase systems. I will also sell materials to take the test legally. This is what is required by federal law. It will be up to the purchaser to conform to local laws.

It takes a lot of extra time to keep records on refrigerant use/recover/recycle/reclaim/return/tanks/recovery unit/filters and so on. The cost of selling one pound in overhead is high when you look deep into it. Cost x 3 (sometimes 4) is not unfair and is the norm.
I worked on two goodman systems today (2-story house) which were 2 years old. One system was low on freon (iced up). I found a leak at the indoor coil. Goodmans quality looks better than in years past (because of so many breakdowns), but they still just don't have the attention to quality Trane has. I did manage to get one of the outdoor units to quit rattling. Why doesn't goodman use the scroll compressors? A better compressor by far than the old ones.

Brickeyee,

Thanks.

What I was attempting to reference was the EPA regulation that prohibited certain equipment with refrigerant being in the possession of non certified technicians. The split system equipment was one. Those regulations are under review, and temporary suspended.

nanomite - I am in the exact same boat as you. I have been pricing units, and feel I can do a majority of the stuff required. I am looking for someone to evacuated the existing system, then come back and braze the fittings, flush the lines, and fill the system. Today I had a local A/C company come by and provide quotes:

Evacuate the existing system: $100-$160 - I think this is ridiculous as they will be keeping the freon, recycling it, and reselling it.

Flush, Braze, and refill (including a general check-out of the system): ~$1600 - This seems way off as the time consuming part is waiting for the vacuum pump to evacuate the system.

Not wanting to stoke the fires of the Trane argument, the people that came out are dealers for Trane. I told him I was doing quite a bit of research online and, without me prompting he said that if I was thinking of Goodman, that they were junk. I have a hard time believing that and welcome anyone here to provide a logical reason as to why the Goodman's, which have a Copeland Screw compressor like all of the other "major" brands are any different in lifespan. Are there other pieces on the Goodman's that are inferior?

A final thought - when they came out for my free estimate, I told them I needed to upgrade because of an addition that was done before I owned the house. Being intimately familiar with the attic, we talk about ducting. The felt that the additional ducting they added when they remodeled was sufficient to keep the 4 ton unit from freezing.

A final, final thought - I asked them to provide me with a quote to replace the whole thing with one of their knock-offs (happened to be made by Rheem). He said about $4500-$5000. If you take the price of the Goodman and the above quote (which I have a problem with), the cost comes out to about the same. The unit they quoted was 1 seer less than the Goodman, and the furnace was a 80% instead of the 95% which I was looking at with the Goodman system.

IÂve been lurking here for past couple of weeks and yes, IÂm a guy who thinks I can replace my own HVACÂ.. with some local help. I wonÂt attempt recover and fill of r22 but, I can put the unit in place, on a level pad and sweat pipe. Electric is up in the air and IÂm not sure on that one. ItÂs the control wires that will crew me. The house is 2400 sqft, I live in south Texas and IÂm thinking 5 tons (lots of windows but, single story). Existing unit is 3.5 tons and line set is ok to 4 tons but what if I want 5 (insulation sucks). IÂd have to change line set but how? Running pipe (insulated pipe) through and under my foundation? That is my little road block and IÂm hoping for a little advice on. BTWÂ. Existing unit is 3.5T Janitrol from 1984. ItÂs got to go.

Thanks for any help!
Dave
_________________________________________________________
Let's break this down.
"Electric is up in the air and IÂm not sure on that one."
*You don't know how to do the electrical!

"ItÂs the control wires that will crew me."
*You don't know how to do the low volt wiring!

"I live in south Texas and IÂm thinking 5 tons (lots of windows but, single story)."
*You THINK a 5 ton system and aren't doing a load to find out! The ducting won't be sized right- total mistake!

"IÂd have to change line set but how?"
*You know nothing about how to properly run refrigerant lines or how!

*Your not asking "JOE" for this advise- don't trust him?
Your asking how to install a system which can't be done here. You did get good advice from some of the answeres here which wasn't what you wanted to hear, so from your angered ego, you decide to call names. No it's not rocket science, but we don't build rockets. I'm sure anyone here could do your job as well within 8 hrs of online reading.
Your going to find there is more to it than you know.
You get what you pay for and what you got was free.
I spend $5k a year for gasoline on one truck, $3k a year for insurance, $2k a year on tools, $1k a year on office and another $3k a year in misc. I crawl in your 130 degree attics for hours if need be, I answere to calls when I am so beat, I feel like colapsing at 9 p.m., I crawl under your dirty dangerous houses, I put myself out 7 days a week to try and get you going so you won't be uncomfortable,I clean the spungent mold and bacteria and hair from your systems and advise you how you may save more money on the electric bill, I do all of this and try and keep a sound and good attitude while the insulation eats at my skin and the sweat stings my eyes, knowing the next call may be the same thing all over again. I should do all of these things for $10 bucks an hour- because it's not rocket science? I'm sorry to upset you but, I come nowhere near $3k a day.
If any time has been wasted here- it was ours.

One little clarification. There is NO legal online test for CFC certificates that allows a homeowner to buy and handle Freon for a hvac system. There are several schools that teach the regulations and use ACCA literature to prepare for the test. If you see certificates offered on E-bay, they are normally fraudulent. The EPA watches for these attempts to subvert the law. To comply with federal regulations, I have a modified curriculum designed by a tech facility that regularly prepares people for the section 608 CFC test. The prep materials are less expensive. The test can be done thru a group of testing facilities, BUT IT IS A PROCTERED TEST.

Anyone can take the test, without any formal training. Read the literature, take the test and wham bam you are done. Total cost is probably closer to $135.

Toones:

I too am in a similar boat. I am replacing my 21 year-old Trane heat pump with a Goodman unit. You can follow my adventure under "2 Goodman heat pumps for the price of one name brand unit". I bought a 3-ton, 14 SEER unit with matching air handler from a local Goodman wholesaler for $2500. This price includes scroll compressor, bypass humidifier, thermo-expansion valve for the air handler, condenser mounting pad, 15 KW heat kit, and hard start cap. Goodman now warrants parts for 10 years. I am paying a pro $1200 to install it. The install includes minor ductwork mods for the new handler, wiring the unit, evacuating and cleaning and brazing the refrigerant lines, charging and testing the system. The total price of $3700 saves $2000 off the price of a similar "name" unit.

You will have a difficult time getting an HVAC company to install a unit that you buy. You're best bet is to approach someone who works for the HVAC company and ask them if they are interested in side work.

I helped a co-worker install his own Goodman heat pump in May. He had a pro evacacuate, braze, charge, and test the system for $75/hour for 3 hours. This was done through the Wholesaler whose installers were slow at the time.

Hi Garyg,

Have you gotten your install done yet?

"You're best bet is to approach someone who works for the HVAC company and ask them if they are interested in side work."
____________________________________________________________

I quickly report people doing "side" work around here to the licensing commission and the state attornies office!
If I have to pay insurance, have overhead, get a lisence, and go thru all of the high cost rules- I will not let a side jobber do a job with no responsibility and walk away making money ilegally. The homeowner will also be in trouble for hiring such known illegal work in some cases and may be subject to inspections of any work done on the home. Needless to say- we haven't many "side jobbers" anymore and a couple almost went to jail and lost their jobs from the company they worked for- because the company can be sued.
And what happened to the customer who hired the side guy? They turned their back on them, claiming they had no idea they weren't licensed!
Be carefull!

jdb52:
My install is next Wed, 6/20.

daddo:
The person that I am using is indeed licensed in Maryland. His quote was written on his company's letterhead. I wanted a professional install, especially with the Goodman unit, to make sure that it's done right. Additionally, Goodman provides no warranty unless the lines are brazed by a licensed pro which is why my co-worker didn't braze the lines himself.

"You're best bet is to approach someone who works for the HVAC company and ask them if they are interested in side work."
- I guess I should have used the word "pro" instead of "someone". I figured that someone working for an HVAC company has their own license, but maybe they may be working under someone else's license as a trainee.

An employee of a company works under the license of that company and doing any work not thru the company is working under no license. If he has a license, then he must show proof of insurance, have the license# on the truck as well as the name of the company and phone# and all invoices must have the # to call to the state license board. If he has none - That means no insurance, inspections or recourse should anything go wrong and burn your home down or get someone killed or hurt. Also if he gets hurt on your property, he may try and sue you for medical bills. He can also disapear with your money. It happened so many times here, we contractors got together to find these guys and report them not just for our benifit, but the people getting ripped off.
:) ;)

$8,900.00? That's wayyyy to much! I'll take that job and go buy myself a new boat! A big boat!
Stuff like that gives us all a bad reputation. I myself have bid a job with a Trane system at $5,800.00 and the other guys were bidding $7k to $8k for the same or lesser equipment! You are right in many ways and I can understand the attitude. The thing is- the hvac companies (not all of them) don't care if it's so high. The new thing now is "do less and make more". So if they sell a job and make a huge profit yet loose a few bids, it's just as good or better than doing a lot of work and getting less. Pretty bad!!
You can find an honest guy out there to give you a decent bid. Look for the smaller companies with maybe one or two guys running it who are a little older.
You do realize (nothing personal or directed to you) that a company will way over bid a job if he doesn't want it because the customer ticks him off or wants him to do too much "out of the ordinary" work, such as if you want to help or do part of the job. Contractors want to do the work themselves so they know that all is done according to their guidelines and there is no confusion who is responsible.

DaddoÂ. DonÂt leave. I havenÂt read all of these threads and I hope this one hasnÂt ticked you off. IÂm a pretty easy going guy. I treat who ever is at my house with the most respect and offer anything I have. Soda, water and beer are always there for who needs it. I donÂt intend on pissing off the pros here either. There is a lot to understanding physics of evaporative cooling systems. The math is huge but, there are a lot of losers dumb nuts out there and yÂall know that.

IÂve made up mind and bought the unit today. Spent.. $2700. Includes in/out plus heater strips and a pad on a 5t Rheem heat pump. Existing line set is good (7/8") and electrical is fine with 2 60A and 1 50A.

I know I could fail but, itÂs worth the experience and most people wouldnÂt go there or here. I also got a great guy line up to help who IS LEGAL.

I will post how this goesÂ.. good or bad
Nanomite

Nanomite:

I'll take a Soda, water, and a beer. $2700 for a 5 ton Rheem heat pump - fantastic. 13 SEER?

Keep us updated. Good luck to you.

ItÂs done and I just thought IÂd update this thread on what we did. Installed the Rheem 5T Heat Pump w/ Air Handler and added a filter rack. Also put a sight glass with a filter dryer on the high side. I spent a lot time buying stuff from a place called Insco and after being in there so much they asked about who I was. I did get the 608 certification and I also took the online classes that Insco had. So they were satisfied and sold me a brand new Thermostat (the scariest thing that I tried to buy). Oh  and the Robertshaw 9725i2 T-stat is really nice and easy to use. Also I do have a new appreciation of you guys who do this for a living. Learning about static pressure and duct design isnÂt that easy. Plus all of the other accessories, problems and solutions that I really have no idea about.

The only things that were an issue was a good size hole in the rubber seam of the plenum adapter and some other minor leaks and insulation around the ducts. I used some of that white stuff to fix those and spent many hours after the install wrapping ducts with insulation.

Other than that, IÂm am good to go. Almost too good. In the beginning my unit would cycle on/off in 2 minutes @ 74 degree set point. I had to set the differential to 3 degrees to a 5 minute run time. This is niceÂ.. it actually cycles.

All up $3400 and IÂm happy!

Thanks
Dave

Congratulations, Dave.

You are the father of a new heat pump installation.

Wishing you many years of good service.

One question regarding f410, is why is a license required, if the freon is not ozone depleting? The answer is the government gats more money. Why don't we see any solar systems, because they would take money from the electric utilities. In my area, we pay a surcharge for undersized electric lines. We are the only area in Texas that pays this charge. Cities and homeowners associations make it difficult to have alternative energy generators.

As to open mind, competition is the lifeblood of the USA. Without competition, nothing would change. Manufacturers would make junk. The concumer would be taxed into jail.

Congrats Dave!

We are in the process of installing our system and have run into many, many problems. Fortunately none of them with the system, yet. After tearing into an add-on section done prior to us buying the house, we have found much, much water and termite damage, all of which we need to repair prior to the actual installation. Then the bright ideas of installing the central vacuum system that we have had in the garage for about 4 years, as well as the A/V closet we have dreamed of for a couple of years. Anyhow, we should get the back to the A/C this weekend, and I hope we are as fortunate as you have been.