Mari, of most importance, is following a proper procedural sequence "before" any equipment sizing & selection is done.

The existing ductwork & airflow needs to be evaluated as to CFM airflow volume, & the duct system checked for air leaks & proper insulation, if its location requires it.

A heat-gain calc should be done to point out where heat-gain could be reduced, which saves the high energy utility costs summer & winter.

New foam insulations, radiant heat barriers, window treatments, etc., can often accomplish big reductions in utility costs.

I have non-commercial web pages with information that all HVAC users" need to enable them to communicate with contractors & installation & service Techs.
- udarrell

Here is a link that might be useful: Air Conditioning System Sizing for Optimal Efficiency

Udarrell's advice is right on. When you call the companies, tell them you want a load calculation done to determine proper sizing. Did your current unit cool and dehumidify well? If it did, then chances are you have an acceptable size already, but a load calculation can make sure. Oversized equipment has a shorter lifespan and is not efficient. So, with that said, it would be foolish to tell someone what size you need without seeing the place and doing the proper calculations. Brand really isn't as big of a factor as a proper installation is. The "top" brands can be installed poorly and not do well. Residential HVAC equipment is very similar among all brands. Personally I think Carrier has the best product line right now. I used to be a Trane fan, but I'm not impressed with their higher-efficiency product line of air conditioners and heat pumps--maybe that will change once they update/release new products

What type of system are you going for? Ultra efficient? Standard efficiency? Multi-stage? Does it get humid in your area on a regular basis (then I'd suggest two-stage cooling)? Whatever brand you go with, I recommend a variable-speed furnace, preferably with two-stage heating and cooling.

Hi,

We all want to get a fair price when we call for service, but that is not always the case. Contractors are in business for profit and after working the field for years, contractors focus more on 'the all mighty dollar.'

Use this rule regarding A/C equipment; do not lower the BTU of the equipment unless the contractor provides you with a load calculation, and the same applies to the furnace.

Your A/C SEER rating will not be less than 13 SEER.
Your Furnace (if gas) should be no less than 90% and so on.

Call up to three contractors for estimates, tell them what you are doing and once you receive all estimates you will make your decision. Contractors hate to loose business to their compactors. If they ask you who else is bidding on the job tell them you cannot disclose that because it would not be fair to them nor you.

After you complete your estimates compare the services and the cost.

I do recommend extended labor and part warranty because this investment will control cost over the next 10 years and add value to your home. You can buy this through your local contractor but it is best to buy the extended warranty through the equipment manufacturer.

I hope this helps, and if you want to shoot me numbers I will be happy to use my resources. Many years ago I did HVAC replacements for Sears and I recommend that you should include them in the bidding process.

Cheers,

Thank you all so much for your responses. I had four companies come out, and one will give me his quote tomorrow.

1st Quote:

Rheem 2 ton system (we presently have 2 tons), 13 SEER A/C
80% furnace. $3,660.00.

2 1/2 ton system, 13 SEER A/C, 80% furnace $3,980.00

2nd Quote:

Goodman 2 1/2 ton, 13 SEER A/C + Goodman furnace 80%
Goodman 2 1/2 ton, A-coil 13 SEER + furnace 80%.... $3,900

3rd Quote:

Trane XR-14 2 ton 14 SEER A/C

Furnace XR 80% 60,000 AFUE 80 gas furnace
Comfort Coil 4TXCB-024B 2 ton $4,238.00

My husband came home to meet with these guys, so I am just passing the info on. Some of these things make no sense to me, but hopefully with you help, I will be able to figure out which is best for our needs.

We're in the Midwest and it's hot! I don't know whether they did the load calculation. How can I know if they did this?

We want something that is energy efficient. I do appreciate your help, and look forward to some feedback. What other information do you need from me? It gets humid here by the way.

The A/C for upstairs is what went on the blink. The system for downstairs still works.

By the way, none of these companies recommended Armstrong. They said that their system is no where as good as Trane or Rheem. Is this true? I know about Carrier but don't know about Goodman.

I would definitely recommend Trane- you should probably call a pro and have them go over options and install it for you though. Check Browns Heating & Cooling. If you take a look at their website, you can see all of the products and services they offer.

Here is a link that might be useful: Browns Heating & Cooling

One thing they didn't do was to check the existing duct, but gave me quotes based on the size we have presently, and asking us if our system cooled the place properly. Is that okay enough for them to make recommendations?

Is Armstrong really an inferior product? This is what I've been told by the companies selling other brands.

Is Armstrong really an inferior product? This is what I've been told by the companies selling other brands.

Companies telling you one product is inferior is just poor sales practice--doesn't matter what brand. The XR14 usually needs a variable-speed blower to get 14 SEER. Prices are good, but you may want to consider the variable-speed blower and 90+ furnace. I also suggest going with a system that uses R-410A refrigerant--the quotes don't specify, which is bad. Some quotes don't even specify the furnace size. Did they all guess based on the square footage? I just did a bad rule-of-thumb calculation and came out to around 60k BTU... that may be where the Trane guy got his number. You'll want to get these bids more detailed with all model numbers and sizing info or just get a couple more quotes.

Ryan, I will get more quotes because I'm not feeling like I understand enough to make this decision.

One of the guys refused to leave his quote.

I told him to drop it off but I had someone else to interview. He said no, he has to be the last one in. Then I called and told him that the others weren't coming so he can drop his quote off. No can do he says, he has to present his quote and show the options, and he has to be here when my husband is at home. Called the company to verify this and found out it is true, this is how they work. Sounded too damn much like time share pressure to me, so I told them they are not getting my business!!

The good news is that I know someone who used to work with an HVAC company (he's qualified) and is coming by to replace the fan blower, which he said is what is wrong to begin with, and that will get me cooler temps so I can make an informed decision. I hate that some of these guys just give the above info and that's all I have to play with.

Thanks for your help. BTW, have you heard anything about Heil?

Sounds like the guy just wants to underbid the others... A good company will leave the estimate and tell you to take your time and give them a call when you're ready. Heil is an ICP product, which is owned by United Technologies, which owns Carrier. Should do fine if installed properly. Do you have a particular budget that you're trying to meet, thus the quotes in the $3-5k range? I think Carrier has the best product line right now--plenty of options to meet any budget. Trane isn't bad equipment either. Most brands will do fine if installed properly. Lennox, York, Rheem, Carrier, Trane, etc... The key is finding the best contractor who WILL do a load calculation to determine sizing.

Have you considered going with a straight heat pump with electric backup? Might be cheaper to run than a 80% furnace. Can you post your gas and electric rates if you know them? There are calculators to compare the fuel costs in the long run. Heat pumps are efficient ways to heat and cool a home.

We don't have a particular budget Ryan, just want something good that supposedly would be energy efficient. I have someone coming out on Friday who will do the load calculation. I didn't have to ask them! Getting some more quotes too.

The brand that was in our home when we bought it is Heil. I checked and it was made in 1989. Some tell me that A/Cs can last 20-30 years with maintenance.

Had another company come out and all they carry is Heil heating and cooling systems. He is suggesting the following:

IIS 80 Quietcomfort gas furnace, 80%
13 SEER DX 1300

The company gives a 1 year warranty on installation, whereas the others were only giving 30 days.

Ryan, you mentioned a heat pump. We use gas heating, is this still possible?

I forgot to mention that the A/C for upstairs is the one that broke down, but the unit for downstairs which is bigger, still works. Not sure if we should replaced them both, or just the one that broke down.

We have not been looking at prices, mainly brands and trying to get the correct system for our home. These are the figures the companies have come up with. No one so far has measured anything, they look at the present size, ask if we thought the cooling was sufficient, and then gave their quote.

A dual fuel system can save money and provide better comfort, but for an upstairs where heating probably isn't used all that often, I would forgo this idea. It's still important for the dealer to look at the ductwork. I'm guessing it's in the attic and the flexible type. You wouldn't want to put a brand new system on a poor ductwork system--it won't be efficient or deliver its full capacity, hence the need for it to be looked at. Also, you'd want to make sure you have ample supply and return for a 2-ton system.

Any more quotes on the way? From what you describe, keep looking in my opinion.

Unless you specifically wanted to keep gas upstairs, a heat pump might be a better idea for your upstairs. They are efficient ways of heating and cooling, and would probably be cheaper to run than an 80% gas furnace for heating (what little heat you may use given heat will rise to the upstairs). I suggest you look at Carrier's heat pumps. Are there any factory-authorized Carrier dealers in your area?

I will check on Carrier. I have two other companies coming out, and will keep looking until I feel comfortable, and not before I run what they say by you!

Question. Isn't gas cheaper than electric? Also, with a heat pump, isn't it going to be running both for summer and winter (a/c + heat)?

Thanks so much for trying to help me, you have no idea how much I appreciate it :-)

Attached is a fuel comparison calculator where you can determine what fuel is cheaper given your utility rates. You can use a COP of 3.

Heat pumps run in both winter and summer. Ask your next dealer what they think about heat pumps versus gas furnaces.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fuel Cost Comparison

Ryan, I will come back with the various units this guy suggested, but he was the ONLY one so far who came prepared to check the ducting, went into the attic, measured and asked a bunch of questions. He stayed about 2 hours! The rest of them were in and out in 5 minutes. I asked him about a heat pump and he explained it all to me, so now I have a better understanding. His company only deals with Trane.

I was more impressed this time, and learned a bit more for the company that's coming tomorrow.

Will check out the fuel cost comparion. Thanks again.

Mari

Ryan, the person who came today was from Home Depot (they do contract jobs for HD), and I was totally surprised that he was so thorough.

Anyway, he realised when checking my bedroom/bathroom area that the bathroom was significantly warmer and pointed out the 4" vent that was too small and recommends increasing to 6" so we need ductwork there.

Other than that, he said everything was in good shape.

He recommended (1) 2 ton Trane XL15 A/C, XV80 Gas, up to 16 SEER.

(2) XR14 2 ton, 14 SEER, XR80. New refrigerant 410A.

(3) XB13, XB80, R22.

Prices were higher because it's Trane of course, but that's not an issue for us to be honest. What we want is something that is energy efficient, and proper installation over brands.

"(1) 2 ton Trane XL15 A/C, XV80 Gas, up to 16 SEER"

Very good setup. Great outdoor unit with variable-speed indoor unit. I wouldn't be concerned about an 80% furnace for an upstairs. Did this setup use R-410A?

What were his comments regarding the sizing?

Ryan,

Wouldn't 14 SEER be adequate? Yes, the XL uses R-410.

The other company came today. More info again, and of course this guy saw things the other didn't. I'm sure glad I have the time to keep looking and gathering information.

First off, I was told that my system is not up to code (I wasn't surprised, house was built in 1989), and that the covering for the door is actually a hazard???? See pics.

He also said he could make do with the space we have in that closet, but the furnace needs to go back a few inches, it's too close to the opening. See pic.

We talked about a heat pump but I still don't quite understand that system, so some reading and asking questions are in order.
{{gwi:1576229}}


{{gwi:1576231}}


{{gwi:1576233}}


{{gwi:1576235}}

We also started discussing an option that did not come up before. What about moving the furnace into the attic? I'm okay with this though of course the cost goes up, but that area there is kind of small, and is next to my son's room, plus there is the noise it makes as well.

I called the gas company out to check for a leak (have been smelling gas off and on in the area, especially at night) but they couldn't find one. The gas people said that they couldn't get all the way to the back to check, and there could be a tiny leak, but they didn't think there was one for sure. So maybe another reason to take the system into the attic?

What are the cons to a move like this? Why didn't the other companies mention code violations? Why hasn't anyone else talked about a steel covering for the door if we leave everything where they are now? This confuses me.

Equipment he recommended:

2 1/2 ton

Trane XR14 A/C and 80% furnace
New duct to bathroom (7")
Auxillery float switch
Freeze Stat?
Thermostat (programmable

Appreciate your time and help Ryan.

Mari

The difference between 14 and 15 SEER is negligible, but the warranty and low noise of the XL15i makes it stand out. I'm not an expert on codes (I would be if I was in the profession), and codes to vary by area, so I can't advise you much in the way of code violations. You're beginning to see how everyone has a different opinion and way of doing things. I know it isn't easy when everyone is telling you something different. Would the 80% furnace quoted by the person who came today include a variable-speed blower? Everytime you get equipment quotes, make sure you get the actual model numbers and not just the model names. Model numbers would take the form of 4TWX5024A1000A and TUD060R9V3K, etc. I'm also curious why the person today wants to go with a 2-1/2 ton system. I wouldn't accept any sizing changes without a load calculation to back it up. Did the 2 ton there before to okay or struggle to keep up (assuming it was properly functioning to begin with)? The steel paneling for the door might be for fire hazard protection. As far as moving the unit to the attic, I don't see any issues--just make sure there is room to service the unit with a plywood platform around the unit and auxiliary drain pain. One thing that hasn't come up is the condition of your ductwork. If it's old, it may need resealing or replacing. System capacities and efficiencies are not only determined by the equipment, but also by the ductwork system.

The only person who checked the ductwork was the guy going through Home Depot. The others said it "should" be in good condition.

The really expensive company (yesterday) mentioned additional ductwork for the bathroom because that area is always hotter than the bedroom; the vent is 4" and he suggested going to 7". Other than that, they have taken a quick peek, checked the flue said it was in good shape, and given a quote.

I need to call the last two back because I have questions, and I plan to have a few more companies out.

RE: the gas leak....at the very least, they should have done a shut in and clocked the meter to prove there wasn't one. If there was, then do whatever it takes to find the leak. Good for you to consider getting more opinions on your system.

Well I am back and now more ready to get this done than I was back in August. We had the A/C fixed temporarily and with cooler temperatures, have been able to do without any A/C for over three weeks!

A recent quote I got was for Payne.

13 Seer PA13MR03000G

Trane

13 Seer 2TTB3030A1000

I'm a little rusty here and don't quite remember all that I needed to ask the person who came out to check my system and give a quote, but he did seem confused when I asked for model #s. Any idea why?

That's just your basic Trane air conditioner. Not a bad unit but nothing special. He may not be used to giving model numbers (rather just saying "13 SEER Trane") in written estimates. Any coil model numbers? Thermostat included? New furnace included? You'll want to get other information regarding the installation in the quote.

The furnace is Trane TUE1B 08087936 (I think), or maybe it's 17936. Hard to read his handwriting.

Evaporator coil 2TXCB031BC 3 HCA

Heil is what we have now and I just called about prices and model #s.

2 ton A/C H4A424GKA
Coil EDD4X24B
Furnace N8MPN050B

How do these sound? Is it better than the Trane that they were quoting me on?

I have an HVAC guy who has worked extensively with Trane and other equipment, and he is saying that if we can get the equipment his labour charges would be a lot less. Would you do something like this or should I go through a company? He's the one who fixed my A/C for summer.

If you have confidence in this contractor, then equipment wise I would personally go with the Trane setup. I'm a big fan of Trane products and think they're solid. Just so you're aware, you were quoted the lowest end Trane setup available essentially, but this may have been for budget reasons. I'd choose Trane over ICP (Heil). As for finding the equipment yourself, it will be hard to find a legit distributor who will sell to the public.

I would advise more but since I'm in a hurry I'll just leave you with one last piece of advice:

See if you can get the Trane dealer to get you a price on more residential replacement type equipment (XR series): the XR80 (or XR90) and the XR13.

This is what I got today.

4TTR4030A - 2 1/2 ton
TVD1B080A - 80
4TXCB036B - 3 ton

He also gave me a price if I wanted to go with the variable speed frunace.

TUD080RQU3.

This guy's handwriting is awful just in case some of the letters/numbers are off.

Sounds good?

Ryan, hope to hear back from you soon.

I would recommend the variable-speed furnace. Do you really need 80k btu's? Did he do a calculation to confirm this? If your ductwork can't handle it, it won't be good or efficient. The setup you listed above sounds fine. Is it from the same contractor? 14 SEER, 12 EER, and a full 2.5 tons of cooling with that matchup--not bad.

Another contractor. They all seem to have different thoughts which confuses me in the end. I don't know if I need the 80k btu's. He did do some measuring but this is the second time he came to give a quote. First time was back in August and his recommendation was different. I told him about needing the 6" duct in my bathroom and that my husband thought we should go with 2 1/2 ton. Do you think that's why he changed?

Could have an impact in his method of sizing... he could be guessing. It seems like you've gotten several quotes. To make this process better, I suggest explaining your need for a load calculation (heat loss and heat gain calculation, in other terms) on the phone, and if they won't do it, don't waste your time (or theirs). If your ductwork is undersized, you could run into other issues impacting performance, so it is important to have the ductwork looked at as well.

Ultimately, just find a contractor with whom you feel very comfortable and confident with.

Ryan, I have gotten at least 8 quotes and they're all different. I have not gotten any two people to come up with the same recommendations.

That's what the hard part is unfortunately... everyone is going to have their own opinion. Hence the need to find who you're comfortable with and have confidence in (that they will do the job right the first time). Also, a good indicator is how much time they take to evaluate your current system and address any needs as well as determining system sizing the RIGHT way.

Ryan, how can I know if my ductwork is undersized? We're only upgrading in the bathroom, but no one has really talked about the ductwork elsewhere. I'm still undecided because I don't feel 100% sure about anyone I've had a quote from.

I just called the last guy (the one above) and asked why he felt I needed the 80k btu's and he said that it would give me the maximum benefit and that it's in his literature as the set up for the 2 1/2.

He said we are borderline where the 2 ton would be okay, but 2 1/2 would be even better. I am quite confused.

Ryan, we had the last company install our A/C and furnace. I felt that overall they knew what they were doing, and they worked with me on the price. I got the 3 tons for the same price as the 2 1/2 and they put 8" duct in the bathroom instead of the 6". My bedrooms are so much warmer now, even though we set the thermostat at 68!

Thanks for your help.

Mari

Glad it worked out okay. I don't know why they put in a 3 ton though. How many tons was the previous? Usually bigger is not better without duct modifications. Hopefully they made certain you had enough return and supply air for 3 tons. What equipment did you end up getting (model numbers, just out of curiosity)?