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kola_gw

heating problem confused

18 years ago

Hi guys,

I'm new to this forum and I'm loving it already. I wish that I found this board sooner before I started buildin my home. I'm sure I would have avoided alot of mistakes. You live and learn. I was wondering if there's anyone here from northeastern pa that could help with this question.

I am now in the 2nd stage of building my home. My builder decides to tell me this week that he feels as I'm making the biggest of my life by choosing to heat my home with propane rether than electricity.Now, I've done almost everything to make my home as energy efficient as possible. Upgraded on (spider) insulation, energy saving ellison windows, tankless water heater, Oh and he now decides to tell me that I need a 2nd zone to get proper heating.Someone should have mention that when I piad 9GS for the 9ft cielings on the second floor.Any way I decided to take away the 9ft cielings and purchase the 2nd heat pump. What should I do.I want to heat my house with propane. Am I making a foolish mistake? Even if your not from the area I would so appreciate your advice.

Comments (12)

  • 18 years ago

    You said you purchase a 2nd heat pump and you are planning on having propane. I think that setup is good. The heat pump will be used down to 30° (or something around there) and when it is colder than that the propane furnace will be used.

  • 18 years ago

    ohhh so what what makes the heat pump run until reaches 30 degrees. Im learning.

  • 18 years ago

    kola

    is this addition upstairs? what size addition?

    what is cost of propane?

    what is cost of electricity?

    is you have as good insulation and construction qualities as indicated,I would go with a properly sized high eff HP with var speed air handler and staged backup heat strips.

    run the numbers on attached fuel comparison cakculatir.

    I'm simply scared of oil and propane costs.

    IMO

    Here is a link that might be useful: Fuel Comparison Calculator

  • 18 years ago

    This is going to be a 3000 sf home. I got a lock-in quote of 1.99, 2.59,2.69, 3.73, 3.01, & 2.99 per gallon. I'll probably need a 500 gal. tank and use about 1300 to 1500 gal. per year plus I'll have an electric bill of 100.00 monthly.I dont know how to use the calculator. I need to go to energy school.I simply dont understand. I just learned yesterday what having 2 zones mean. my contract agreement states that I agreed to central air conditioning, forced hot air liquid propane but he's giving me until monday to change it out if desired.I should know what type of heating & cooling system will be installed in my home. I dont want my builder to think that I dont know what I'm doing. He's an excellent builder but why dont I trust this? I need to look out for my famil's best interest.HELP ME PLEASE. I dont want to make the wrong decision

  • 18 years ago

    "ohhh so what what makes the heat pump run until reaches 30 degrees. Im learning."

    - 30F ambient, or so, is typically the "balance point" which is the temp at which the heat pump cannot provide enough heat and auxilary heat must be supplied. The aux heat can be a gas/propane/oil furnace or electric resistance strips.

    "I got a lock-in quote of 1.99, 2.59,2.69, 3.73, 3.01, & 2.99 per gallon."

    - How can you lock in 6 different prices?

    What is your delivered price of electricity (in cents per kw-hr)? Provide this cost as well as the correct propane price and someone will provide the math.

    Example:
    Compare the cost of 1 million btus of heat for propane and electricity:

    Propane at $3.50 per gallon, 90% efficient furnace
    (1,000,000 / 91,000 btu per gallon) x 3.50 / .9
    = $42.74

    Heat pump w/electricity at 12 cents per kw-hr, COP (Coefficient of Performance) = 3.25 at 35F ambient
    (1,000,000 / 3413 btu per kw-hr) x .12 / 3.25
    = $10.82

    Straight electric resistance heat, same price as above
    (1,000,000 / 3413) x .12
    = $35.16

    The heat pump costs 395% less to run than propane (42.74/10.82). As the ambient temp increases from the 35F example, the heat pump becomes even cheaper to operate because the COP increases.

    Straight electric is 122% cheaper to run than propane (42.74/35.16).

    Plug in your own prices and efficiency for more accurate numbers.

    Good luck.

  • 18 years ago

    Checking my math:

    The heat pump would be 295% cheaper than propane: (42.74 - 10.82)/10.82 = 295%

    Straight electric would be 22% cheaper than propane: (42.74 - 35.16)/35.16 = 21.6%.

    Take care.

  • 18 years ago

    Okay so we'll have a gas fire place,would like a gas stove, gas dryer and we paid extra when we purchased the tankless water heater.Are these wise choices to operate by gas? So of course we will need a gas line to operate those appliaces. But if we decide to heat our house with electricity, what how will that work? this is my understanding. we will have 2 zones meaning 2 heat pumps ( do we even need 2 zones to heat a 3000sf house?) central air which is only used during summer months, A tankless water heater which will give on demand hot water ( less energy being used to heat hot water) but how will this operate? (gas or electric?) we there be a gas furnace? Will this furnace kick on when the heat pumps become less effecient?

  • 18 years ago

    I too faced the choice of the best supplemental heat for a heat pump. For the top floor unit, I used electricity due to much simpler installation. For the lower floor unit, I did use a 92% propane furnace for the reason that the furnace can be powered by a portable generator during power outages. A heat pump requires a considerably larger generator.

  • 18 years ago

    You haven't posted your electric rates or propane cost.

    The propane furnace will be supplimentary heat, the heat pump will be primary heat. You can choose the switch-over temperature if you get the right thermostat.

    Zoning is a good idea for a large house. It keeps the floors more even in temperature.

    Propane is one of the most expensive fuels.

    Good luck.

  • 18 years ago

    Kola, before you can get any meaningful help, you must post your current electric power cost in Dollars per KWH AND youre geographical location which helps to determine how much of the heating season you will use the heat pump vs propane.

  • 18 years ago

    Thank you garyg you couldn't have simplified that any more. Thank you.
    I'm currently building in Northeastern, Pa
    current rates:
    Electricity:10 cents per kwh -cost per million btu=$29.31
    Propane: 3.29 per gallon- cost per million btu=$37.82

  • 18 years ago

    "Electricity:10 cents per kwh -cost per million btu=$29.31
    Propane: 3.29 per gallon- cost per million btu=$37.82"

    Ok - you have very good electric rates. Your 2 zoned heat pumps should be primary heating based on your electric rates. You could install a propane furnace as supplimental heat to the heat pump on the first floor, and electric resistance strips as supplimental heat on the second floor. Or vice-versa, the strips can go on the first floor since they're cheaper to run with your current utility rates. Your decision, but I would buy only 1 propane furnace. The electric strips are cheap to buy - less than $200 for a 15kw strip heat kit.

    Post the model numbers of the heat pump condensers, matching indoor coils, and furnace. You want a heat pump that doesn't skimp on heating btu's since it will be your primary source of cheap heat. Some system combinations are weak on heating btu's. FYI: A 14 or 15 SEER heat pump offers the best combination of purchase price and operating costs. A 10 year extended parts and labor warranty is smart for HVAC equipment.

    Good luck.