Sorry to hear about your problem. There is no excuse for not registering the equipment at the time of installation. Any reputable installer would have registered the equipment. Did you speak to the original installer about this?

Heat pumps have a shorter life expectancy then AC condensers. This is because they have to operate most of the year while the AC condenser gets a winter vacation. You should get 10 - 15 years out of a properly installed heat pump especially when you have two of them with a dual fuel set up.

You may have gotten a defective unit, but my suspicion is the heat pump failed prematurely because of improper installation.

I would say unlucky and that what you experienced was a premature failure.

I would hope tech just didn't change a part but actually looked for any obvious reason for the compressor failure.

While I feel for you about only getting a 5 yr warranty on parts and compressor, it was your responsibility to properly register and verify your system was covered for the full 10 yr warranty. Don't like the way Carrier does this and I hope dealer made it clear that you had to register the system, not the dealer. They probably didn't do this.

Trane use to send out a certificate on their ext warranties, not sure if they still do.

Post your all inclusive electric rate and nat gas rate. I will run a fuel comparison for you. Lots have happened on electric rates and nat gas rates in 5 yrs. The leverage between the fuels have made DF not as attractive as it once was. Your furnace is 95%+ eff or 80%?

Sorry for your trouble,

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Sat, Oct 18, 14 at 8:27

I've seen this before. Is this just a trick by manufacturers to get a certain percentage of owners to default on the 10 year warranty? I see no other purpose. Even if the unit wasn't registered within the 60 day window or whatever, surely enough paperwork exists that the registry can be reconstructed.

For the above poster

Doesn't work that way.

Each manufacturer specifies the number of days following install homeowner has to properly register for system's warranty. It can be accomplished online and is quite easy.

And yes I agree that it is probably a ploy by the manufacturers realizing that a certain percentage of homeowners will fail to properly register new system.

I don't believe there is any recourse. The dealer is just as much to blame as the manufacturer. But homeowner must do his homework and that includes understanding the warranty and proper registration.

IMO

In my opinion the dealer should be registering the equipment. If he is too lazy to do this, then he should explain to the homeowner the equipment needs to be registered in order to get a 10 year warranty.

What is the model number of the heat pump? There are known issues with the Bristol two speed reciprocating compressors Carrier was using on Infinity units a while back. Carrier did do a recall, but unfortunately you are SOL since it only applies to in-warranty units. They dumped that compressor and are now using Copeland Scrolls exclusively on the 2 stage Infinity units.

On the other hand, if the compressor in question was a Copeland Scroll, the failure would either be due to bad installation or bad luck. And don't think you'll improve your odds by avoiding Carrier since all the brands source their internal components from the same small set of manufacturers. The only way to improve your odds is to stay away from the real low-tier junk (which Carrier is not) and hire a contractor who will do a quality install. Usually they won't be the lowest bid.

Thanks for all the feedback.

It is a 25HNA - 2009 vintage. I would love to know if a new compressor would have a longer lifespan. It would help factor whether to run the heat pump or not.

As far as the registration, as a common consumer - I've never heard of a registration requirement. Most warranties have registrations but don't require it for coverage. An a/c or heat pump purchase is a pretty rare thing (and first for me), so what maybe customary and well known to those in the business, was certainly not well known to me. Since it was part of a home build, I didn't catch the rather small mention of it in probably 1000 pages of other new home documentation that I was going through at the time. I will talk to the contractor tomorrow to complain about this and ask for some discount on the install.

As far as rates, there hasn't been much change around here in 5 years except for my switch to TOU rates. NG is still right around $1 and kwh went from 10.5 cents to 5 cents at night, 6.5 cents during the day. There is a demand charge of about $5 per peak kw used during a 15 minute period for the month. The demand charge is usually around 4kw or $20 a month but was as high as 7 from a high stage heat pump call during a hot water call with an electric bathroom heater. Hard to get it below 4 because the oven gets you there.

Very complicated analysis but fair to say that the HP adds 2 additional kw to the peak per month.

Last year total NG bill was $100 when the usual is more like $250. My electric bill was about $75 higher. This was after changing from 35 to 25 as my setpoint. So the change probably saved me $75 but it was also a very cold winter. I'm guessing not worth it given the labor cost alone on the compressor.

What model and efficiency on your furnace?

TD

90% - don't know the model.

If Infiniity furnace which it should be, then at least 95% efficiency. MVC or MVB?

Definitely not the Infinity 80?

You do have infinity controller?

Post back.

IMO

>It is a 25HNA - 2009 vintage

That's an incomplete model #. Just one more digit and I'll be able to tell which compressor it has! It will either be 25HNA6 (Bristol TS) or 25HNA9 (Copeland Ultratech Scroll).

That digit will tell us whether the failure was due to a poor design, or bad luck/poor installation.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Sun, Oct 19, 14 at 22:48

25HNA6

It is an infinity furnace and I do have Infinity controllers. Does Infinity not have an 90%? The only reason to do the 90% was the basement location so it was cheaper to do the 90% vs the 80%. Using dual fuel (NG) in the south seems like 95% would be overkill...

Yep your unit has the compressor with known issues. I did some research, and I apologize that I completely misinformed you earlier about Carrier's replacement program. That was an old version that required you to be in warranty. Carrier modified the replacement program so that all units within 10 years of the manufacture date qualify. You have 2 options:

-Replace the compressor. Carrier will supply the new compressor and pay $200 worth of labor. You would need to pay the rest of the labor.

-Replace the unit with a new Carrier Infinity condenser with Copeland Scroll compressor for $545. That's assuming you are between and 24 and 72 months from the manufacture date. If the unit is more than 72 months old, you pay $1545.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Mon, Oct 20, 14 at 15:36

Wow - why has my contact with Carrier or my contractor not mentioning these options? I am expecting a call back from my contractor today (supervisor was away yesterday)

A link or reference number or something. Any of that would be fantastic.

If accurate, your options become a lot more palatable.

See link below. Have no idea if this is still in effect.

Keep us posted.

Good Luck

Here is a link that might be useful: Carrier Service Bulletin

The above linked is the older version where you must be in warranty. Here is the latest version of the service bulletin:

http://www.auersteel.com/reference/DSBs/2014/dsb14-0025.pdf

And here is the consumer brochure explaining it:

http://www.auersteel.com/reference/DSBs/2014/CarrierRepairReplaceBrochure.pdf

Sorry for the confusion...

Have to wonder why Carrier dealer was not up to date on this?

IMO

This situation demonstrates no matter what brand you buy you are better off using a factory authorized dealer. The dealer should be aware of field problems and the availability of extended warranties.

In most new housing the builder is going to hire the lowest cost installer who typically is not an authorized dealer of any brand. It is unfortunate but this has been seen on this forum multiple times.

I am not one for extended warranties, but I did get the 10 year labor warranty for my condensers. I am glad I did since I own three reciprocating compressors!

Yep, I too am very surprised Carrier nor the dealer you talked to knew about this.

It isn't recip compressors in general that were this trouble prone, it was this particular design. Actually, the neat thing about it was that it had a 50-100 split for the stages, which IMO is much better than the 80-100 split used by scrolls. Too bad they couldn't get it right. Now the only condensers that give you a true 50-100 split are the Trane XL20i and Rheem RASL, both of which accomplish it by having 2 compressors.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Tue, Oct 21, 14 at 11:09

Carrier says it has to be under warranty. Even with the newer program.

Any class action suits regarding this poorly designed compressor?

Anyone with a good source to start one up?

Did you read the "policy" section on page 5 of the pdf? It says you can't use standard warranty channels. Maybe that's where you went wrong? I don't see anything that says you have to be under warranty. If you were under warranty why would they need this program??

I would put your complaint in writing with a copy of the service bulletin. Explain what you believe you are eligible for and that you intend for them to make this right. Be polite but firm.

I suggest certified mail for your records. Either before your letter, of if your letter is unsuccessful I suggest you escalate your complaint to as high as you can go. Eventually you can threaten small claims court.

I suggest these steps because I had a problem with a SONY TV that failed right at the end of my extended warranty. I researched the problem and found that many (tons!) people had filed complaints and eventually Sony did a voluntary recall because the part was indeed defective in design. I had a problem because I was never notified of this recall and missed it by mere months. I was able to get the name of the right person in Sony to get a "deal." (they had been offering steep discounts on replacements or paying for part/all of the repair.) Some people did file small claims. There was a class action at one point. The small claims people often based their claim on a "warranty of merchantability" (I think). Basically that means it is reasonable to expect that the tv would operate as intended for a typically expected lifespan. By extending the warranty they pretty much admitted the problem. I think that is the case here, which is why I doubt you would be excluded based on not having registered and gotten a 10 year warranty instead of a 5.

You probably won't need all that info I just explained, but small claims is cheap to file, and I doubt they'd send a rep to court....

Meanwhile, talk to the right people (not the std warranty people, escalate your compliant, and write a letter.

Good Luck.

oops, just saw that "this policy will terminate June 2014."

Were you ever notified of the policy?I wasn't notified by Sony, which is partly why they paid 50% of my repair. (it was $800 repair). If not, you still have some leg to stand on (imo).

The "policy" section is page 5, not 6. Page 6 is the form, which doesn't list a question about warranty.

Be firm and don't back down.

So the computer I was on yesterday wouldn't let me see the .pdfs. I was thinking I wouldn't be able to see them so now is the first time I am seeing them.

So Carrier admitted there was a problem and had a remedy that ended in June (and appears to have been in effect since 2012 with the latest DSB only coming on 4/1/14). Boy my luck just keeps barely missing. I agree, the remedy admits fault (to some extent) by Carrier.

I've escalated as far as phone allows and they won't return my email. Small claims is tough as I would have to file where Carrier is registered - county and state.

If anyone has access to the DSBs and lists a current applicable one, I'd be very grateful.

You may be able to file a small claim case your state. http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/small-claims-book/chapter9-2.html

You can certainly threaten to. I am thinking the threat may be enough for them to offer a "goodwill" settlement.

Remember, if you file and they don't show up (would they really pay to send someone?) then you win by default (as long as you show up!)
http://kahlerfinancial.com/financial-awakenings/weekly-column/small-claims-get-results-with-big-companies

Melanie - we would definitely be interested in learning more about a class action suit - as soon as possible! We have been looking for one for a while now. We are without A/C and need to decide what to do, if we get the replacement does it nullify our chance to join the suit?

Melanie - I too would be interested in joining any suit. We just lost the 2nd compressor in 10 years on an Infinity system. Carrier is of course washing their hands of it because it "is out of warranty".

Our 25HNA Carrier is on its THIRD compressor (first one failed, a second died this spring) and now we have an issue with the TXV valve. At this moment the tech is attempting to recover the valve by using some special substance that has worked "wonders" he says, to a pattern of problems with the original issue of failed compressors. He says that the refrigerant systems is meant to be sealed and that once it is cut to replace a compressor or TXV valve, it ramps up the possibility that contamination can enter the system. Between issues from faulty Bristol two-stage compressors, to those Copeland units which had a lubricant that clogged the system using the R410A refrigerant, and the openings/closings of sealed coolant lines, what does one expect? Once that happens, he says, it's IMPOSSIBLE to completely reverse that. I'm being penny wise/pound foolish as I'm paying up to $700 to attempt to cure or replace the valve (he is installing some kind of additive), but the alternative to the short term gamble, is DITCHING the unit (7 years old) and getting another $8,000 unit for a home we plan on leaving in the next two years. I'm investigating at this time whether it's possible to go for small claims ($5K cap in my state) at this stage, and perhaps the attorneys would rather settle than come to court. This kind of pattern of failure is amazing, my tech says, and I'm seeing this all over the HVAC forums here. Surprising that this hasn't yet been swept up and slathered all over the mainstream media, as it seems the big companies are trying to keep it swept under the rug.

Add me to the growing list of dissatisfied Customers that have had more than one compressor failure on my Carrier infinity system. I also feel their offered fixes for an obvious manufacturing defect to be unacceptable. A top of the line EXPENSIVE should not have to be replaced at 9.5 years. Any updates on a class action suit ???

Please don't anyone waste time on class action lawsuits. The only people who make money off these are the lawyers. You'll end up getting pennies on the dollar and will have to wait years for that. Continue pressing the installing company or c\Carrier for assistance. You can always use the Small Claims Court veiled threat while assuring them you would much rather come to a mutually agreeable "goodwill" resolution.

I can be added to the list of the crappy Bristol compressors. I was told by Carrier this past Thursday that I can get the same 2 options for replacement. I am hoping that I can get some help with this issue.

I will join myself. lwthebatman@yahoo.com

Greetings - the stories above concern me greatly; here's mine:

Local professional (registered representative) installed Carrier 2 stage heat pump model #25HCB636A - in August 2014. By May of this year (2016) - unit would not create cool air. Local pro (same one who installed system) diagnosed; now says that (after consultation with Carrier) that the condenser has failed (and Carrier acknowledges that the unit is in warranty)...

The issue: Carrier warranty will pay to replace the part - but will not cover labor. The labor cost to replace is just under $1,000. What suggestions would you make for me, please?

Evan evan@metamg.com

You are posting in an old thread. If you want to continue the discussion start a new posting.

Unfortunately you are stuck if you only have the one year labor warranty from Carrier. Did the installer explain to you what has to be replaced?

You could ask the installer to give you some break on the labor charges given that you are his customer. There is also a possibility the initial installation was done incorrectly and this lead to a premature failure.

Has anyone started legal action with this?? Having same problem

Brookesweiss?