And one follow up--do I want the media filter or should I just go with the washable filter that usually comes with it? If I get the media filter--I assume I will have to forever buy replacement filters through my dealer--any idea of that cost?

Thanks.

celjon

what area of country do you live?

this is a replacement system?

size you have provided is a three ton. this is correct size?

very good pricing but I question the air handler model.

I did check the AHRI HP Directory but did not see a match with that air handler model.

I suggest you want this mdl FE5ANB004+UI. this may increase price by a small amount.

Here are the AHRI performance/efficiency numbers.

1250416 Active Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA636A30 FE5ANB004+UI 35800 12.60 16.60 34400 9.00 19100 1

I would also check with dealer about the special 9KW heat strip that has staged heating strips. If he is a good Carrier dealer, he will know exactly what you are talking about.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: AHRI HP Directory

Thanks for the quick response. I live in Western West Virginia, near where Kentucky, West Virginia and Ohio meet. Yes, this is a replacement. I had another dealer do a sizing/load calculation and he said I needed a 3ton unit but he was a Trane dealer and his bid was pushing $8000. My current unit is also a 3 ton.

I believe I currently have a 10kw heating strip. Will the 9kw staged heating strip you mentioned cost extra? Require any additional wiring?

What are you thoughts on the media filter? Do you favor extended warranties (and I assume the pricing on that is negotiable to an extent?)

Sorry for so many questions--I have never had to replace a unit before and it is certainly not something I know much about.

celjon

pay close attention to this air handler mdl issue. it makes a big difference in your operating costs and is very important. you want a matched system with the best numbers.

as to the special 9KW staged heat strip, I can not comment on price. discuss with your quoting dealer. staged heat strips can save you in operating costs.

as to filters. how do you filter your return air now? where is the filter located? do you have central return(s) or individual room returns? some of these filters come in proprietary sizes and are only available from a dealer. but you see more and more generics becoming available. ask dealer the size filter,MERV number, replacement cost of media filter he is quoting. then check several internet filter sites to check price of OEM and if generic is available. the nice thing about a 4-5" pleated media filter is they last up to 1 yr before requiring change out.

I have mixed opinion on ext warranties. they are only good if you have a covered repair. cost varies. rule of thumb is around 10% of total installed price. yes, they are negotiable. normally the cost is shared between the manufacturer and dealer.

post back.

TD

My current filter is a washable filter. It is an "non-traditional" size and I have never been able to buy disposable filters for it (current unit is a Carrier). The unit is located in the attic at the unit--accessible via a set of pull down stairs. Slightly inconvenient to get to but I still wash the filter at least twice a year. I have individual room returns. There is only the one filter.

I have seen you comment before on your preference for a scroll compressor. I do not think this unit has one. Is that bad?

Also, the installer said he can purge and clean my existing lines instead of installing a new line set. What determines if that is true since it will be using the new refrigerant? My outdoor unit is located almost directly below where my handler is in the attic and my house is brick.

Thanks.

celjon

what size is washable filter? I doubt washing two times/yr is enough.

yes, I would install a pleated 4-5" media filter. does not have to be Carrier. There are others like Honeywell or AprilAir. Find out which model dealer is quoting. you want it installed in area where changout is as convenient as possible. as said in previous post, changout is up to a year and the Infinity controller will remind you.

scroll compressor is preferred but certainly not a deal breaker with the nice Infinity 16 HP. can't stress enough though about the best matching air handler.

I prefer changing out the refrigerant lineset both because of correct size and the new refrigerant. Linesets are relatively inexpensive and good insurance against contamination. Save the old and sell it for scrap. The only good reason for not changing is some installation obstacle. Anyway, that's my preference. If you elect to keep old, verify size is correct with dealer and that it be properly cleaned out. Correct size impacts efficiency and good operation.

IMO

You have been so helpful and I do appreciate your time. If I can bother you a little more, how do I know if my lineset is the right size for the new unit? I am assuming that they would need to run it in some kind of exterior channel since it would be hard to go up through the existing walls without kinking it but am I incorrect about that?

Also, the only air handler info I can find to is on the Carrier website http://www.residential.carrier.com/apps/finddocs/form.jsp?b=c and I can not find a fan coil that starts with FE5. I hate to show how little I know but I guess a fan coil is an air handler? How do I find what you were looking at if I want to seem like I know what I am asking for with the installer?

Thanks so much again.

celjon

as far as size of lineset, ask the dealer to show you the specifications in Carrier's technical literature and if that is the same size as existing. There is an element of trust that you must have with dealer. If it's not there, then you need another dealer.

what is path of existing lineset? this path can not be used for new lineset? if not, then you must verify the correct lineset size and if existing is OK, then weigh the cost of using existing and having it cleaned vs the cost of running a new lineset with exterior path to attic.

OK, I did a little more research on the air handler and found that it is either discontinued or obsolete. Here are the AHRI numbers...

882735 Discontinued OEM INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA636A30 FE4ANF002 33600 11.50 15.00 33000 8.50 18900

I would not have it and the fact that it is discontinued may account for the good pricing. discuss with dealer.

one other thought. Unless there are rebates involved in your quote, you may want to consider Carrier's sgl stg Performance 15 HP. It is one of the best sgl stg mdls on the market and yes, it does have a scroll compressor.

Here is an example of the AHRI numbers. And if interested, you should request the "H" model not the "A" model.

1125687 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FE4AN(B,F)005+UI 36000 13.00 15.50 36000 9.00 21800
1125689 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FE4ANB006+UI 36000 13.00 16.00 36000 9.30 21800

1169031 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FV4BN(B,F)005 36000 13.00 15.50 36000 9.00 21800

1125695 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA536H30 FV4BNB006 36000 13.00 16.00 36000 9.30 21800 ...

any of these four would be a very nice system...

IMO

I can't believe you are so willing to do so much research for a stranger! Thank you.

The price quoted on the Infinity 16 does reflect a rebate so I am not sure what kind of pricing I could get for the Performance models.

I do not know much about the path of the existing lineset except I assumed (probably incorrectly) that it must be housed somewhere in the walls and was placed there when the house was built 15 years ago. That led me to believe that it may be difficult to shove a somewhat soft line though the same path but that is just my opinion. The installer said he could use the existing lineset and I have no real way of knowing whether that is the best or not personally so you are right, I have to trust the installer. he is listed on Carrier's website as factory authorized and NATE certified. Maybe I should be appreciative he is not trying to sell me something I don't need.

Good advice so far. The FE4ANF002 is a short model, so many space is an issue? The 004 and 006 are very tall @ almost 60". As Tiger said I recommend going with a different FE4 series air handler for best performance and efficiency if possible. Good pricing... best I've seen for an Infinity I think. Make certain you choose the best dealer to do the job--not always the low bidder. On the lineset note, many times they can be reused if sized and flushed properly, but if possible it's always best to replace. Good luck.

celjon

a few more thoughts

I would not have the air handler you have been quoted-poor to mediocre numbers-short on cooling BTUs, short on heating BTUs, poor EER,mediocre heating efficiency.

here are my specs for HPs

15 SEER,12+ EER, 9 HSPF
full BTUs in cooling and heating for rated size
matching var speed air handler
R410(Puron) refrigerant
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
staged backup heat srrips
thermostat that has "dehumidify on demand" feature

good luck!
IMO

Hopefully last question. Can you give me a ballpark figure for what the price difference should be to go with the FE5ANB004+UI air handler versus the one I was quoted?

Thanks.

Shouldn't be much... few hundred maybe? Minimal in the grand scheme of things--negotiate with your contractor, telling him that you want the best air handler to match the heat pump you're buying. As I said, size may be an issue. Is this an attic install? The FE5 is upflow/downflow only, not horizontal multi-position like the FE4.

It is an attic install but you can stand in the attic where the existing one is. The only problem may be getting it up through the access in the closet.

Is the existing air handler in a horizontal configuration? If so, you're better off keeping it like that, to avoid the costs of duct modification, etc... May be hard to fit a 60" air handler upright in the attic with ductwork on both ends in your attic. The FE4ANB006 has similar ratings.

The existing air handler is in a horizontal configuration. I didn't even think about any modifications to ductwork. Do you mean the FE4ANB006 has similar ratings to the FE5ANB004? How can I find out what they would be?

The FE5ANB004 is upflow/downflow only (single drain pan). It's ratings would be (with 3 ton Infinity 16 h/p) 12.6 EER, 16.6 SEER, and 9 HSPF. The FE4ANB006 would have the same ratings except .1 SEER less at 16.5 and 200 btu's less heating (nothing that would stop me from buying the system).

I hope this contractor has given your ductwork a thorough look and made certain it was adequate in size and design. Ductwork is a very important determining factor in your actual efficiency/ratings--the ratings about are just nominal ratings, not necessarily actual. Proper airflow is critical in ensuring you get the best out of the system. The variable-speed blower is great, but not on inadequate ductwork, which can make it work harder and be less efficient with a shorter lifespan. I'm not trying to turn you away from it as they are great when put in the right situation; I'm just stating the facts and the necessity for your contractor to make sure your ductwork is capable of delivering the best performance. How many return air outlets do you have in your system, if you know?

I see your contractor is quoting the T00 air handler--great. I believe these have a 10-year warranty with the tin-plated coil.

Hope this helps. It can be a daunting task, but well worth it in the long run.

I believe I have five returns upstatirs--one in each of the four bedrooms and one in the hallway. I also have nine vents for output. My upstairs is about 1500 sq. ft. Not trying to do the installer's work (which I am not capable of anyway) but is there something I can do to access my ductwork and its capacity to handle this system?

Celjon, not being in the HVAC trade for a living, I'm not sure exactly how to tell. There is a method of sizing ductwork systems that takes into account friction, static pressure, sizing, length, etc. I would consult your contractor and ask how he will determine the ductwork is adequate, or perhaps another member here can give you some insight. Was the previous unit a 3 ton, or did they upsize due to the 2-stage units only coming in full ton sizes? The return situation sounds ideal provided the duct connecting them is large enough. 9 supplies moving 1200 cfm on high stage sounds a few short, but your contractor should take a look and see what changes need to be made.

celjon... you mentioned there may be an issue with getting the air handler into the attic because of the opening. Had the same issue 3 months ago and my contractor ended up taking the air handler apart and taking it up into the attic in pieces and reassembling it.. also, you mentioned line set, my contractor said he prefers to change them out because of the new freon, but said because of the way my previous lines were installed, it would be fine to use existing lines....the only thing I would caustion is since my system was installed ( 2 heat pumps ) the larger unit, a 5 ton h.p. has quite a bit of "vibration noise". My contractor says it's because the new freon operates at higher pressure and that's causing some vibration in the freon lines where they go thru the bricks and possibly any place they're touching a rafter or joist.. He has ordered some type of vibration dampers that actually go "in line" on the freon lines that he says will take care of the problem. Guess I'll find out soon enough. Good Luck

Roland

celjon

stick with it and work with dealer on fitting the FE5ANB004 Infinty air handler with T00 tinplated coil in your attic. This selection will make a difference in your operating costs. And I would get a pleated media filter cabinet and the staged backup heat strips.

Keep us posted.

IMO
Good Luck!

tigerdunes

Do you have an opinion about getting the FE4ANB006 instead of the FE5ANB004--is it easier to stay horizontal? What about the concerns raised by another poster above that my number of vents may be inadequate given CFM's?

Thanks

celjon

With today's high energy costs, I am always guided by good operating/efficiency numbers vs what the costs are.

Here are the AHRI numbers on the Infinity 16 HPs that I would consider.

1250404 Active Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA636A30 FE4ANB006+UI 35800 12.60 16.50 34200 9.00 19100 1

1250416 Active Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA636A30 FE5ANB004+UI 35800 12.60 16.60 34400 9.00 19100 1

any of these would be fine and if one was less expensive and fit in your attic, then that would be my choice.

I am not concerned about your ductwork unless you currently have a noise issue or any hot/cold spots in the rooms that would be served by this system. if you have one and/or the other, then yes this should be pointed out to your dealer and properly addressed. I don't believe you have mentioned either condition. You might want your dealer to give your ductwork a good inspection as far as insulation or possible leak issues. You definitely don't want to heat or cool your attic due to leaky ductwork.

IMO
Good Luck!

Thanks you so much for all of your help and information (and to the all of the posters too). I will let you know what I find out from the installer this evening.

Please do consult your contractor about your ductwork and register count. Older blowers do not operate like variable-speed blowers today.

The installer says it will cost $400 extra for the FE5004 air handler and $400 extra to modify the ductwork to accomodate it versus the horizontal unit I currently have. I see there is a FE4003 and FE4005. Can anyone tell me the ratings of pairing either of those with my 25HNA636A003 heat pumps? DO they work with it but still allow me to stay horizontal?

celjon

here are the eight active AHRI HP matching systems for a three ton Infinity 16 HP with var speed air handlers.

I think the pricing on the FE5004 air handler is fair but I question $400 duct modification without knowing more details. Ductwork modifications are really cheap unless there is a great deal of labor involved.

I would not even consider the FE4003 system but might the FE4005 if it saved you a little change.Of course it will cost you a little more to operate than the two systems I recommended.

IMO

1250410 Active Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA636A30 FE4AN(B,F)003+UI 34000 11.90 15.50 32600 8.60 18600
1250413 Active Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA636A30 FE4AN(B,F)005+UI 35400 12.40 16.20 33800 8.80 19000

1250404 Active Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA636A30 FE4ANB006+UI 35800 12.60 16.50 34200 9.00 19100
882651 Active Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA636A30 FE5ANB004 35800 12.60 16.60 34400 9.00 19100
1250416 Active Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA636A30 FE5ANB004+UI 35800 12.60 16.60 34400 9.00 19100

1381427 Active Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA636A30 FV4BN(B,F)003 34200 11.90 15.00 32800 8.50 18800
1381398 Active Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA636A30 FV4BN(B,F)005 35600 12.40 16.00 34200 8.70 19200

882452 Active Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNA636A30 FV4BNB006 36000 12.60 16.00 34400 8.90 19200

I am really confused with this installer. He claims that a 19 SEER Infinity with the FE4002 horizontal air handler will be cheaper than the 16SEER with the FE5004 and will produce as good or better output. His claim is the first option will cost about $650 more (price differential is for different model, no ductwork modification required) but the second option will cost $800 more ($400 for different air handler + $400 for ductwork modification).

Can I just have you call him! My head spins every time he gives me a new option.

My opinion: forgo the FE5 idea and look at the FE4 (006 gives best output). You don't have to go through the trouble of putting an air handler vertically in the attic for marginal performance difference that won't pay for itself.