Software
Houzz Logo Print
jrn_gardenweb

Heating help, please!

17 years ago

Hello,

Our 18 year old Payne "High Efficiency" heater seems to be operating so inefficiently that I'm nearly better off burning the dollar bills its costing to heat my house.

1) The house is about 35 years old, 2400 ft.sq. with insulated exterior walls and attic (the blown in attic insulation is workable but needs to be replaced).

2) Most of the windows are aluminum frame, single pane.

3) Approximately 400 ft. sq. of the space is vaulted ceiling with no insulation.

4) Current furnace is a downflow model located in an interior closet. The ducting is better insulated (fiberglass wrapped) than I expected. I am reasonably certain that the ducting leaks, especially at the point where all the distribution legs of the ducts join underneath the furnace.

5) This unit also has air-conditioning.

6) The furnace heats the house VERY SLOWLY. Maybe 90 minutes to raise the temperature from 60 to 68.

7) The air-conditioning portion WILL NOT keep the house cool in any manner. I've actually watched the temperature rise while the AC was running.

8) Winter nights here are routinely in the 30's with plenty of 20 degree nights.

9) The fireplace is just a regular brick/mortar wood burner with a gas 'log lighter'. The air board in the area has no burn nights.

  1. The house seems to maintain the temperature pretty well once it gets there.

  2. Eventually we want to reclaim the closet space currently occupied by the HVAC.

We are faced with either freezing, dumping lots of $$$ to the utility or upgrading the furnace in the hope it will be much more efficient.

Due to a job loss, there is little extra money to do anything but freeze, but if a new furnace will more efficiently heat the house, we could scrape together the money to upgrade.

A) Will upgrading the furnace be worthwhile?

B) Is there any market in used furnaces?

C) Is it appreciably cheaper buy a furnace only over one that also supports air-conditioning? I am more than willing to do without the air conditioning for now.

D) I'm pretty handy with a good supply of tools. Can I expect to install the unit myself?

If it was just me and the wife and dogs, we'd just keep it off and wear warm clothes, but our 2 year old needs to be warm.

Thank you for any help, ideas you can give me.

jrn

Comments (10)

  • 17 years ago

    You need to tighten up the insulation envelope of your house big time. You're losing a lot of your indoor air thru the ceiling section without insulation, the poorly insulated attic, as well as thru your single pane windows and open fireplace. Leaking return air ductwork (especially in the attic) adds unconditioned air into the HVAC system.

    Tighten up the leaky house and ductwork before you do any heating or a/c replacement. A new system has to be sized properly for the heat gain/loss of the structure.

    And no, the furnace and/or a/c install is not a DIY job.

    Good luck.

  • 17 years ago

    replacing my 30 year old unit with a new Trane HP last year resulted in a huge energry savings, somewhere in the 40% range. is this the case for everyone, no it is not. but it can make a big difference.

    as stated above, you should seal up all air leaks on teh home and the ducts. this alone can make a huge difference. when teh duct work leaks you either condition the attic or you suck in unconditioned air and make the system work harder, depending on where the leaks are. jsut sealing the leaks in my ducts before i replaced the old system allowed it to work much better.

  • 17 years ago

    As for duct sealing use duct mastic, aluminum duct tape or silicone on all sectional seams and longitudinal seams (Do not use regular duct tape).

    If you wait until January 1, 2009 for furnace and A/C replacement, the federal rebates which ended December 31, 2007 are going to be reinstated. Improvements in 2008 do not recieve these rebates.

    If you have drafts, this is infiltration air which can consume more energy than heat loss. Outlet and switch plate gaskets can be installed to reduce/eliminate infiltration air through these devices.

    Hope that helps,

    Dan Martyn

  • 17 years ago

    Here is a link for the Tax credits, looks like $300.00

    Here is a link that might be useful: Energy Star Tax Credits

  • 17 years ago

    ...Some followup information....

    Thanks for the replies so far!

    The house seems to retain its temperature pretty well.
    For example, the heat is set to go on at 60, and off at 65. The thermostat is set to run the 60* overnight sked. at 10PM. The furnace came on a couple of times starting around 4am.

    I am not discounting leaky ducts, and inadequate insulation but using a good, instant read meat thermometer, the heated air temp at the registers is within 5% of the temp I measured at the heater itself.

    I measured about 115 degrees at the heater registers. What kind of temp should I be seeing out of them?

    The thermostat is located within a few feet of the return air duct; is that negatively affecting the operation?

    Thanks again for the help!

  • 17 years ago

    If you have a single zone, locating the thermostat near the main return is recommended. It will sense the temperature of the return air and the furnace will shut down when the zone (Return air temp) is satisfied.

  • 17 years ago

    The temp at the registers with good insulation should read anywhere between 120F to 130F

  • 17 years ago

    Thanks for the replies!

    I used an accurate instant read meat thermometer to check the temp at the supply plenum it was about 120 degrees. I also checked most of the registers and they were within about 5% of that.

    The exhaust pipe is way too hot to touch.

    The furnace was supposed to be an 80% efficient model, though as I mentioned earlier it is a 1991 model.

    Does efficiency decrease as furnaces age? If so, what is happening that makes it less efficient? Its a simple process right, a fan blows air over a heated surface. How does that become less efficient over time?

    According to our gas meter, about 4000 cu.ft. of gas is being burned up in the furnace per day. 4000x1027(btu/cuft/92000(furnace btu/hr)=44 hrs of running full blast..? The furnace only runs at most 6 hours per day, so does that mean it is really just 13% efficient?

    thanks again for the assistance!

    jrn

  • 17 years ago

    Are you moving sufficient air through the heat exchanger? Are you getting sufficient air flow out of your supplies? When was the blower assembly cleaned and serviced? Many times I see the blowers neglected to a point where they are no longer moving rated air. Are you useing filtrete filters or high density filter media? These restrict air flow considerably. What are the high/low limit switch values?

  • 17 years ago

    Hello, and thank you for the reply. Air 'seems' to be moving pretty well from the supplies. I don't have a way of measuring the flow though (it does blow dog hair around pretty well). Also, supplies closer to the heater move air better than those farther away.

    The furnace has an electronic air cleaner component that no longer works. The filter is just a thin aluminum screen. There is no noticeable difference in performance with or without the air cleaner components installed.

    I've no idea when the blower was last serviced. I would imagine it has been quite some time.

    Thanks again for your help!