#1 geothermal HP

#2 high eff air source HP w/electric backup

#3 high eff air source HP w/propane backup furnaced

I would stay away from oil.

IMO

I 2nd the previous post. If you have alot of space geothermal might be the way to go. Its expensive but will pay itself back over time. Otherwise a good airsource heatpump is good.

Make sure your new home is well insulated. This will save tons of money in the long-haul.

FIreplace sounds nice as a backup heating method and for looks.

Oil or oil backup with high efficiency air source hp will be your cheapest and wisest option as far as "conventional" sources of heat. Propane and electric resistance will always be more $$ than oil. I'm not sure why people have this fear of heating oil, but you shouldn't. The price of heating oil will always be less on a per BTU delivered basis than electric resistance or propane. Having said all that, since you live in eastern PA your least expensive option by far would be anthracite coal with oil backup. check out www.nepacrossroads.com to see what your coal options are and how much money you would save.

While geothermal would likely be the most expensive up front, that cost would be at its lowest as the initial first cost. The main difference between conventional and geothermal first costs would mainly be the ground heat exchanger. When the cost of the project is rolled into the mortgage, the energy savings may in fact (more than) cover the additional monthly expense making this the cheapest option when you consider and compare the monthly expenses of principal, interest, taxes & utilities combined.

While electricity is 100% efficient, propane up to ~96% efficient and oil may be up to 85% (optimistically) efficient, geothermal will likely be about ~400% efficient!

Some on this site would disagree with the whole premise of geothermal payback so do your own mathâ¦

SR

fsq4cw- in line with tigerdunes list, the issue is whether the extra expense of a ground source HP makes sense compared to an air source one. The improvement in performance won't be as dramatic between the two as the percentages you mention (might be a COP of 3+ vs 4). As for the backup heat, there are calculators online to help you compare.

Even more important is to build a tight, well-insulated house. I'd read up on that and make sure the contractor is (contractually) on board to do the detailing that's needed.

Re: thull

The improvement of geothermal over air-source is dramatic in many locations. ThatâÂÂs the point of geo! Geothermal also has the longest life cycle of any active space-conditioning system.

As noted, many may disagree, so do your own math.

SR

Geothermal all day long but air source may be fine based on your temps. Whenever you get on a national forum, you have to realize that the advice may not pertain to you. But most people realize this and tailor their advice to climate but not everyone knows the climate you describe. Eastern PA sounds like a pretty variable climate. Is it southern or northern, elevation?

You really don't have 3 options (oil, electric, propane), you have 50. But, as stated, your most important thing is insulation and envelope issues. There is code and then there is what you should do if you don't have NG. Since you are forced to use a fuel that is on average over 2 times the cost of NG, you really need to work on insulation.

I'd be pushing R25 for the walls and R60 for the ceiling. Then minimize windows and doors.

You really need to get a number of how much it costs to heat 3000 sq feet with propane in Eastern PA? Is it $5000 a year? How much does geo cost a year - $2000? That pays for a pretty nice geo system at 5% interest rates. It also pays for some really good insulation.

Or you could move to NC where I pay $700 a year for 4000 sq feet.....NG with ASHP. It is really unfair that we have NG and barely even need it - My NG bill was $200 last year. Even if my backup was propane, it wouldn't have been a big deal.

jmphoto

several responses since the original post but no replies from the OP. I have to say that while oil is a great heating fuel, it is not subject to competitive forces in the markeplace and a great deal of the product comes from countries that despise the US.

OP mentioned possibility of a fireplace(maybe gas logs?).

I think oil is the worst idea and suggestion unless operating costs are not a concern.

a high eff HP whether geo or not has to play in the equation and final decision.

IMO

Geothermal would be good however the upfront cost is heavy even with rebates.

In your area it can get very cold for heat pumps to work. Most homes use forced air or hot water baseboard.

i would recommend hot water baseboard (radiant floor if you can afford it) with an oil boiler and indirect hot water tank. an oil boiler with 85-90% efficiency and indirect will use less oil than older systems. this would mean you need a separate Central Air system if you want it.

Another option would be to use hydro air with the same setup but it would allow for central air to be incorporated.

good luck

Oil is subject to the same competitive forces (and manipulation) as any other fuel; to say otherwise is nonsense. Most of our oil doesn't come from Nations that "hate" us. Our number one foreign oil supplier is Canada; We also produce half the oil we consume in the US, and the US is the third largest oil PRODUCER in the world. The HIGHEST fuel costs will be electric resistance and PROPANE which LIKE OIL is a product of the petroleum industry. In addition, because the heavier crude currently available for refining in this country needs to be "sweetened" by lighter hydrocarbons- light hydrocarbons similar to those in PROPANE- propane will always average a higher price per available BTU (amount of available energy) than #2 Distillate oil= Heating Oil. His absolute best option for heating in Eastern PA would be an automatic Anthracite Coal stoker furnace - with oil backup. Geo won't compete with the cost of coal heat in the coal region.

Berlin - Oil production in the US is declining. Your data is quite old. We peaked in 1970 at 9 MBD and now are at 5 MBD. We consume about 20 MBD - probably a bit less now.

So we actually produce about 25% of what we use which is a lot less than 1/2. In 10 years, it will be a lot less than 25% based on trends.

Canada is a large supplier of our oil and is growing. But a large proportion of the oil in the market comes from countries that are not democratic and not natural allies (except for oil). Saudi Arabia is a despicable place and the citizens by and large do hate us even if the government loves us. Where was Osama from?

To suggest otherwise is nonsense.

The idea of burning coal in someone's house is probably not reasonable for most people. Cheap - sure. I personally wouldn't burn oil let alone coal.

for David Cary

thank you for your comment.

while it is true that propane pricing tracks oil prices, at least the propane based on my research is home grown. Most is produced in US with the balance from our northern neighbor, Canada. Can't say that that about heating oil. And yes, I think that should be taken into consideration by homeowners.

And assuming good new home construction with above average insulation properties, I would not fear the use of high eff HPs for Pa location. On conventional HPs, I would want a model that has electronic demand defrost to reduce the unnecessary, nuisance, and expensive defrost calls from HPs with time/temp method.

IMO

demand defrost is great. Very helpful and necessary. Absolute must have on todays heatpumps. I recommend highest efficiency single stage systems.

david, Stop misleading people. My information is current! http://www.eia.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/info_glance/petroleum.html

An irrational fear of using heating oil or coal in someone's home is unnecessary. If you don't know about the cost of propane, then there is no need to make something up for the sake of posting a response. It's also unnecessary to comment on coal when one apparently knows nothing about the subject. The OP was interested in the costs associated with certain heating sources, and the costs of propane vs. oil. Advising him to switch to a more expensive fuel (propane) in complete disregard of reality really does him a disservice. Ignoring coal, a fuel that's plentiful, 100% AMERICAN, extremely inexpensive, and COMMONLY used for home heating in his area, doesn't allow him to make the choice of a heating source while being fully informed.

berlin

It should be noted that OP said they were interested in forced air.

as to oil vs electric vs propane, run the number on attached fuel comparison calculator.

on a cost/BTU basis, in recent years I have never known oil to be equal or less expensive than propane. and there is no doubt that as the dollar falls and economy picks up those countries that make up the US hating cartel will jack oil prices back up.

I remain unconvinced that oil from an operating cost position is a good choice now or for the future.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Fuel Comparison Calculator

Forced air automatic coal stokers (some) with oil/NG backup:

http://www.keystoker.com/products.php

http://www.efmheating.com/stokerfiredfurnace.html

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_a_EPLLPA_PRS_dpgal_w.htm
Based on the current average price of propane on the eastcoast according to the EIA: $3.10/gallon @ 90,000btu/gallon

Based on the current average price of Distilate #2 heating oil on the east coast according to the EIA: $3.22/gallon @ 140,000btu/gallon

Per Million BTU supplied, Heating oil $23.22 vs. Propane $34.63

Even if we go back to October 2009 when propane was at it's low against heating oil nationally:

Propane 2.05 gallon = $22.90per million btu
Heating oil 2.60/gallon = $18.75 per million btu

Now, we'll give propane another benefit, based on the october 2009 price against october 2009 heating oil and accounting for the differences in efficiency this is what you get:

Propane@ 95% efficient condensing furnace per million BTU : $24.40

Heating oil @ 85% efficient furnace per million BTU: $22.06

Propane is the loser, has been and will be. Propane is a valuable light hydrocarbon and hydrogen source for the oil industry, light hydrocarbons are and will continue to command a premium price over heavier fuels- the propane price is not only MORE volitile in its upswings than #2 distillate fuel, but is Directly related to the price of oil
as it is a product of the oil refining industry.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/hopu/hopu.asp

btw, as far as domestic production of oil, yes, it's not quite 50%, but close varrying between 37 and 49 percent, substantially more than most people realize and that was my point. If however, you want an all-American fuel AND you want to save lots of money, use all-American COAL.

Berlin - Your math is a bit off. The domestic production of consumed oil in the US hasn't been anywhere near 49% for over a decade. From your site I just confirmed that.

Nowhere did I say that propane was cheaper.

Coal is a particularly dirty fuel to use. Even with high tech pollution control in large scale use, the pollution per BTU used is far higher than anything else. You may not care but a lot of people do. Oil is also more problematic with air pollution than propane.

Of course propane prices are tied to oil but look at the last year, oil is up a greater percentage than propane. Maybe that is because propane is also made from NG which is dirt cheap.

Back to OP - a heat pump at moderate temps is cheaper than even NG, it will blow away oil/propane. You just need to get it right so that you are using your backup minimally. Geo solves all the problems, it just costs.

heatpump is the answer. If your new house is insulated well (which it should be), the air source heatpump will be surprisingly affordable and comfortable.

If you want the extra efficiency and comfort, go geo-thermal. Last 3 days we had lots of snow and wind, if I was running an airsource heatpump it would have gone into defrost alot. With geo-thermal you don't have to worry about ever going into defrost. Extra comfort and efficiency. Higher upfront cost though. Probably pays for itself over time and with resale value.

I just plugged current retail numbers into fuel comparison calculator. Obviously there is some local variability but I assume they use an average.

Oil $2.73, Propane $2.99, NG $0.72 -- per 100k BTU

That is $3.20 for oil (85%), $2.60 for propane (95%) and $.007 pre cu-ft for NG (95%) (source was Ohio NG company for Dec 10)

I'm not sure where Berlin got $3.10 for Propane but I am sure that some people do pay that. The EIA lists it at $2.60 for 12/6/10.

So oil and propane are close enough to be a minor consideration. Obviously NG rules. Heat pump at $.10 a KWH does very well - beats NG above COP 4. Electric resistance at $.10 is surprisingly (to me) cheaper than oil and propane.... at $2.64 per 100k BTU

I'm not sure where you're getting $2.60/gallon, be sure you're using retail prices. also, it's best to use a fuel calculator tha allows you to adjust the btu content of the fuel so that you know all input values are correct. Propane and heating oil aren't close in price per btu.

Not to beat a dead horse. $2.60 is a retail price and the calculator takes into account different BTU per fuel - wouldn't be much of a calculator if it didn't.

OK, the home is in construction stages and we need to make a decision. NG is out since it does not even run anywhere near where we are building. Narrowed it down to oil or geo. We got two estimates on geo. One for $34K with a 4 ton Waterfurnace system and 6' deep horizontal closed loop. The other from a different contractor for $27 for a 4 ton Climatemaster with 3 150' closed vertical loops. Our home cost includes a high efficiency oil heat/forced air HVAC system, os if we do the geo I will have to pay the difference. Our builder is s stickler for insulation so everything is an R value above code and then some. I am just not sure if the geo is going to pay. The first contractor with the 34k estimate claims it will only cost me about $400 a year to heat the home with his system. The second contractor with the 27K estimate claims about $210 a month for heating and less for cooling. Is the first one being unrealistic? Our zip is 19541 in eastern PA and this winter was COLD!

The first contractor who wants 34K and says it will cost $400 per year to heat your house is full of it.

The 2nd contractor who's estimate is 27K and says $210 a month is probably more realistic. I think the 27K quote is worth it. This equipment should last a long time. When its colder out your geo-system should still having a good COP and will run less than an air-source heatpump. You should rarely need to use your electric backup heat.

Look at the price of oil lately. Its going to keep getting expensive. I think you can get the govt. to pay 30% of the 27K cost of the geo-system. This system sounds farely priced. I think the 34K system is too much.

Make sure your 3 vertical looks are sized properly and grouted properly so you get proper heat transfer. Hopefully the HVAC contractor provides a good service warranty included with that price.

I would think a tight house in East PA could be $400 a year to heat. $200 a month seems a bit high. Your builder goes above code on R-value but there are a number of factors that go into heat loss rather than r-value.

I am going to make some guesses. Your oil system is $8k and your net on Geo is $18k so the cost to you will be $10k.

Your payback will likely be less than 10 years. But a really tight house with double code R value, min windows (or triple pain), good solar gain and ducts in conditioned space and payback might be 20 years.

I think that you can gain great benefit from hiring an independent, local energy rater to help you through your home planning. It will cost you very little compared to your house-building investment. An energy rater can come up with reasonable construction standards for the largest bang for the buck in energy efficiency. They can tell you whether to sink your marginal dough into insulation or more efficient heating plants. They can make sure your construction is done right by observation and testing (of the envelope and ducts). Interview one or three to find out what they can do for you.

Lastly, there is nothing wrong with oil heat space and water heating if you have a good service company and have them do a tune-up once a year.

You haven't mentioned your cost per kW so it's difficult to determine how much it will cost.

I live in a 2800sq ft home in Montreal that was built in 1961 to the standards of the day. We have geothermal and it costs us $509 for 363 days. More importantly that was ~7222kW. I'm SURE it's colder here than in PA.

I would be wary of the contractor that wants to do 3 loops of 150ft each. You need 4 at 150ft to 200ft. Some would do 4 at 120 feet - I wouldn't! You're being quoted 112.5ft per ton. That's very risky especially if you plan to run a desuperheater for domestic hot water in the wintertime.

There is a cost to running the defrost cycle with an air-source HP. This may be more than you think when the backup has to run. Geothermal on the other hand has no defrost cycle.

SR