Seems to me you don't have enough room for island seating as you currently have it. 3'6" isn't enough for someone to sit down and for anyone to pass and open the frig at the same time. Is that an undercabinet frig?

IMO your kitchen would be better suited for an additional pennisula on the dinette side. You could put seating there and you wouldn't have the congestion that I see going on now with the island.

Thank you. I was feeling sensitive to this spot exactly, although my KD assures me that 42" is enough, especially with the different seating options and the right stools. The island is an integral part of our kitchen design and will stay. The wet bar (yes, undercounted fridge), which will function as a coffee bar by day, that could change. Does anyone see where that could go? We thought of in the dining room, we thought of in the open space to the left (or right) of the french door. We thought of the room with the fireplace (too far away and brings traffic in the wrong direction). Again, thank you so much for you help.

On the other hand, has anyone done this and not regretted it? Or done it and wish they hadn't?

I also think 42" is not enough room to have seating. If you do a search there are threads with the specific recommendations for distances. Hopefully someone else will chime in with the specifics. I think buehl has them memorized lol! The thread "new to kithcen? Posting picture?" may have a link with all this info as well. You could do a mock up and see how tight it will really be. If you stay with these distances I would definitely go with backless stools you can push fully under the island. The island is pretty narrow at 28" - is this enough room for people to sit across from each other and not have knees and feet and legs hitting each other?

The other question I have is regarding the seating by the range. Is this a raised area to protect the people seated and how far are they away from the range? What will you have for ventilation ?

The fridge is a good distance from the sink so I see lots of walking back and forth for prepping. This could be mitigated a bit depending on what you plan on storing in the refrigerated drawers. Are they a fridge/freezer drawer or both refrigerated drawers?

You have a lovely open space to work with and I look forward to watching it come together. Good luck and I hope other more experienced planners will share their expertise.

Thank you so much for putting some thought into this. I've had little niggling thoughts about each of the areas you've mentioned. Except for the distance b/n sink & fridge.

Hmmm, I thought 42 was the recommended amount. I'll pull my kitchen table 42" from my current bar area. I already have a 24" undercounter fridge and the door is 22" when in the open position. Good idea.

Right now the island is in front of the main fridge and it's a royal pain when someone sits there. I just measured it and it's a laughable 36" away from the full door fridge. The stools I'm considering will definitely be backless and the island seating will mostly be for kids for breakfast and/or homework.

I was also concerned about the narrowness of the island. With the top, it's 30", no cabs underneath the seating area. We did mock this up by pulling our current kitchen table (it's 32") in place so I think it will be fine for what it's purpose is. No big fancy meals here. The island's main purpose is really prep and hanging out maybe casual meals when the family is not all home. It will, however, get congested here during a party, since that's where the bar is, right? :(

The fridge is actually staying where it is now, (the island is moving and getting much more narrow) as is the range and the sink so I've been living with this triangle for years. It's not a problem so long as there's no one sitting at the island! Adding the double fridge drawers at the island for produce, milk, kids snacks items: yogurt, cheese and that days meal prep items was what I was thinking.

As for the seating at the breakfast bar, it's really for additional seating during parties, a way to connect the two rooms, spread out the flow and a way to separate the kids while they tend to their homework. The counter will be stepped up, not sure about counter depth here. We will definitely consider extra depth to keep away from the range. The ventilation here will be a hood with an island application. Not optimal, I know, but we tried to put the range in every other location and it just didn't work. Given the type of cooks that we are, I think it will be fine.

I'm meeting with the contractor today and will bring up those thoughts. I'll let you know how it went.

I'm in the process of planning a kitchen remodel and our layout is almost identical to yours but flipped around. I'll get around to drawing it out soon and post it. We have a similar plan to have a table attached to the island however I don't think we'd have the equivalent of your beverage center adjacent to the seating, its farther down that wall.

One question though: Is that area labeled as Pantry going to be where you actually store food? Thats a bit of a hike from the kitchen!

I understand that your corner banquette and table placement
may be a product of your desire for a better flow
through the back door off the kitchen eating area.
i.e., you want to get the seating area away from the french doors.
But, the banquette corner feels a little cramped
and it seems like you have a lot of open, unused space by the back french doors.
Have you considered scrapping the corner banquette idea
and using a free standing, narrow table centered in that part of the room?

Why are you changing the entry from the door to the side to the bay area? I much prefer having the bay serve as the breakfast area! It would make a lovely banquette with a round table. Changing it makes the whole area kinda useless and makes traffic patterns really awkward. The layout of the breakfast area is much better as shown on the first plan.

Also, you have seating all over the kitchen, kinda willy nilly scattered. Too much seating, and in the wrong places.

I would much rather see the range go where the fridge is currently located, with a peninsula out from there. That would gt you away from the awkward island hood layout that currently exists. The fridge would then go opposite on the main sink run and would be more accessible to the family room and sunroom areas.

I find the whole layout offputting and awkward. It underunitlizes your primary assets and makes actual cooking in the kitchen a bit of a chore. It's also adding in unneccessary expense that does nothing to add to the usefullness or the aesthetics of the space. It takes one of the most charming features of the space and reduces it to a glorified hallway and locates the fridge so far from the prep zone that you are forced to spend thousands on fridge drawers in order to have some ingredients close enough to grab.

It's not often that I really dislike layouts, but I really dislike this one.

I'll see if I can't do a quick cut and paste here with a better functioning idea. Give me some time.

Your kitchen designer doesn't have to live with the designs. It might be good to ask them how they come up with narrow aisle being OK when NKBA is saying a BIG NO.

This was pulled from Buehls research from NKBA

"Walkways....In a seating area, 36" of clearance from counter/table edge to wall/obstruction if no traffic passes behind seated diners. 65" of total clearance when this includes a walkway (i.e., traffic). [From the NKBA Kitchen Planning Guidelines With Access Standards]" - measurements are countertop to countertop BTW.

I'm glad you brought up the top because you will lose 1.5" on either side of the aisle which brings the clearance down to 39" not 42. This would barely be big enough if you had NO TRAFFIC but this will have loads of traffic.

On top of this your kids are kids (and so are their friends). You'll be pushing whatever type of seating back in place even if no one is sitting there. Can you get by with less then 65", sure, but not 39"

You indicated that the island is integral to the design, could you elaborate more? What does it provide you? Can you get that someway else?

I hope you get the real design experts here because I'd be shocked, if they say anything different about your aisle widths being way to small.

Here is a link that might be useful: Full thread on NKBA recommendations

The big problem with traffic flow in this kitchen is that none of the most used aisles or doors are wide enough, or if they are, they are located wonky relative to traffic flow. The opening between the breakfast area to the small door is wide enough, it's just not located correctly. Shift the opening towards the door so the route is more direct. Widen the door from the DR and shift it over to have room for a beverage area next to it facing the exterior. That will also give you room for a walk in pantry for much needed storage. Widen the door from the family room to the sunroom and from the sunroom to the exterior. That gives you a straight shot to the outside from the family area if both doors open properly. Relocating the fridge there also gives better access to it from the exterior and the family room. Putting the range where the fridge was and adding a prep sink there gives you a protected cockpit for all of your prep and cooking that looks out to the family area to keep it social. No expensive island hood will be needed, and because you prep on the peninsula, you will be facing the stools and family area 70% of the time rather than just the 10% that you are cooking. The peninsula next to the banquette seating can also serve as a secondary prep spot as it's next to the cleanup sink. With the double peninsula, you don't need an island or island seating. Your breakfast area is right there and will be a highly sought after spot to hang out.

I agree totally with Liv Wire Oak regarding the best architectural feature in the area, is reduced to nothingness and wasted. Wonderful job creating an awesome pantry area. It's the rights size and in an ideal location. The cooktop seems a bit too far away from the kitchen, but having it out of flow is great.

I can only imagine the OP being frustrated because they are getting nothing but red flags from GW. I hope for their sake though, they take a step back and see that the layout they are proposing does indeed have MAJOR design flaws.

If you really, really like the island, and it has to stay, then just plan to get rid of the seating at the island, and shorten it.

The problem I saw with the plan, aside from those mentioned above, is that the banquette seats and the island seats will create a pinch point to each other, effectively cutting off any walkway from front of house to back/kitchen. If someone comes down the stairs and parks themselves (to do homework or what have you) at the island or a chair at the banquette, then no body else can get through.

Live-wire's pathways should be very enlightening.

I think your seating on the island would work, if you took out the stools closest to the sink and moved the island that way, just a few inches. This would give you a few more inches on the fridge side, for the stools to slide back.

The banquette is a neat feature (I plan to have one, too) but the french doors are eating up all the space in your bay. Why not have one french door, in the window, closest to the sink...and leave the rest as windows, only. Then you could have a little table and two chairs, which would just fit in the space. Maybe wicker? That would be nice with a few plants and would make up for losing the stools. My mom had a similar set up and it was quite charming :)

I agree with everyone that the bay window is too nice of a feature to turn into nothing but a passageway. It ruins the whole kitchen to do that.

I'm not sold on a banquette for the eating area, although a comfy sofa along the longer wall would be the ideal spot for a lazy Sunday nap. Just a plain table and chairs for the rest ought to work fine. I love the pantry area and the cooking "cockpit" that LWO came up with. I do think they key to better backyard access is the elimination of that stub wall by the breakfast area and the shifting and widening of the doors of the sunroom. Not doing an island cooking area and fridge drawers ought to pay for those changes and you end up with a much more usable layout.

We have an island in the center of our kitchen too.... but no stools on the fridge side. This allows us more room on the opposite side. So I like the idea that lavender proposes.

I'm new here, so I tend to lurk/read and am hesitant to contribute, BUT... I will say that when we have parties or just happy hour, our island is the congregating place. It doesn't matter that we have a cozy, comfy living room and a bar between the LR and kitchen, EVERYONE gravitates to the island.

I love ours, so I understand any disappointment you may feel about the suggestions to not have it.

Obviously a really good relationship between the pool and kitchen areas is a major goal, so I won't push Live Wire Oak's plan.

In any case, I disagree that not having furniture in a bay has to be a waste of it. Keeping it empty can be a way of optimizing its beauty and views instead. I do, agree, however, that this plan of cramming casual dining against the inside wall and leaving the rest empty is...imperfect.

I was actually wondering, why, with all that seating at the island, so much more is needed down in that corner too? You have eating-chair and eating-stool legs all over the place (I hate to wash them only more than I hate constantly moving them around to sweep under). Ohmygosh--I just went back and noticed yet more in the room to the right. Maybe a different version of a "Something's Gotta Give" kitchen? Ignore if you really disagree, of course.

If you really want to invite people to join you in the kitchen, though, other types of seating are so much more comfortable. Would the suggestion already made to make the current breakfast area into a sitting area work for you? Maybe a very comfy banquette, laid out as designed, but with a very small table for chatters who need a place to set a glass? This would be far less crowded and make sense as a place to plop down and enjoy the view out the window bay while staying safely out of the traffic.

Whether you keep the doors in the center of the bay or put one on the side by the kitchen to create more usable bay space, though, you could balance the layout visually and find room there for another comfortable chair facing the kitchen and banquette. Perhaps something lightweight that suggests the outside brought in, or even a club chair with ottoman?

I was thinking, to not destroy the bay, why not just swap the purposes. So, I put the sink in the bay and put the door where the sink was. Then shallow dish storage behind the island for better seating clearance. A prep sink in the island can serve as a beverage sink or prep sink. The MW beside the sink serves snackers and there's a smaller secondary prep spot beside the range. Most of the prep time will be spent on the island beside the prep sink looking out towards the pool, and the cleanup sink also has the nice view. The eat in area has more of a connection with the family room and could have a built in bookcase on the back side facing the family room. Or a bar sink and glass cabinets on it's back facing the family room would give you a bar area.

{{gwi:1626690}}

And here it is with my own traffic analysis. Grand Central in front of the doors is wide open space and sees a ton of traffic, but there are no pinch points here. The worst potential issue is the cleanup path from the DR and it could be solved by swapping the dish storage and fridge but that would be much worse for the cook. I would find the cleanup hike as is an acceptable tradeoff for being able to have the better seating clearance at the island.

{{gwi:1626692}}

Now that is a layout I can like! Great idea to swap the kitchen with the breakfast area. The only tweak I would suggest is swapping the fridge and MW cabinets. That way the fridge is closer to the prep and the snackers don't ever cross paths with the prep. I do think that a bar on the back of the banquette could be a great addition if that would be useful to your family. Good job!

nbptmomto3 I hope you take this feedback to heart about preserving the bay in a useful way.

i say fire your KD and hire GreenDesigns!!!!

Great job GreenDesigns if they can afford it, which the OP hasn't given any direction regarding that matter. Considering their initial proposal was removing the one pennisula and creating a long island, it wasn't that different mechanically (electrical, plumbing etc).

The OP was so excited, and I'm concerned that they aren't going to get, how their layout just wasn't workable with the island and aisles, not to mention wasting great space. I still remember thinking we were done with the planning stage only to get others to chime in one last time, about a few key issues that made all the difference between an OK kitchen and a wonderful kitchen. If they can stay open to the constructive critisism, they could have a better kitchen then they could ever imagine (even if they don't elect GreenDesigns spectacular design).

I'm looking forward to hearing what they think.

With a few minor changes I think you have a workable plan. I am not a fan of the kitchen in the bay - the dishwasher is cockeyed, and the kitchen is not next to the fireplace room --- located centrally is key. No one is hanging out in the mudroom.

I know two people with VERY similar layouts, and yes, their islands are shallow, but serve the purpose pretty well. I don't really see you sink or cooktop of refrigerator being located anywhere else. The refrigerator is an Ok location, and you can always use the island for a landing area. I like that the refrigarator is a straight shot from the cooktop. You will spend more time prepping than opening the refrigerator or actually cooking.

A few suggestions below:

1. move the table to the bay --- especially if this is a lower traffic area.

2. remove a few chairs from the layout, so that you have more room to work.

3. Think about making the distance between the sink and the island = 39". SoThis should be fine and could increase the size of the island.

4. Move the bar to the old banquette area, that keep the folks that need drink farther away from you central location so you can move from the DR to the Kitchen easily during parties. Plus moving the bar gives you more room for folks to sit at the island. I think you may have upper cabinets here, so maybe just make the bar a corner bar, twice as many lowers?

I think you have a VERY workable plan, and if I find my friend's kitchen plan he shared with me a few years back I will post it for you. It was a super workable kitchen, very similar with appliances in the EXACT same locations.

JeannieMer -- great solution! I like your revision of the plan.
I also was not a fan of the plan discussed earlier today
of moving the sink area into the bay.
It put the stove/range too far from the sink and put the stove in an awkward position overall.

I'm thinking that the OP may ultimately be more open to JeanneMer's idea since it tweeks what they originally came up with and would minimize the construction costs, assuming that is a concern.

The pantry issue would still be an issue. As the bar area gets moved down, perhaps a very shall pantry 12" could be placed in the previous bar area.

I think this layout is awesome. I can envision lots of parties and fun in this kitchen. I see perhaps a yearly new years eve party where some of your neighbors get a little out of control. I see a husband cooking little necks with garlic and wine. I see another family being regular guests at the Sunday dinner. The flow is great one can move seamlessly from the fridge to grab a beer to the music station to help the husband try and figure it out. It will be great.

Hi, I also found an inspirational picture of how this might look.....quite nice! The appliances/doorways are all in the same locations as the plan. Inspired!

Picture by KitchenBuilding.com

The biggest drawback to this plan is that the whole reason for the remodel was to get a door that isn't awkward to use to the outside from the kitchen. Traffic flow through the door in the bay will be hampered by the table and chairs and there will be lots of bumped knees and stubbed bare wet toes from trying to squeeze past the dinette. I don't think it's any better functioning in that regard. Moving the bar does let the island shift enough that the aisles won't be so cramped, so that's a great idea!

I think that there have been two options that addressed this primary stated problem well with the kitchen without destroying the use of the bay. The first was LWO's take down the stub wall by the dinette so that the door that exists will be easier to get to and to create another easier access point through the family room and sunroom by also widening those doors and relocating them. The second suggestion that addressed the exterior access was mine to swap the breakfast and kitchen spaces. It's hard to say which suggestion would be less expensive, as both are major kitchen redo's, not just minor tweaks to the existing layout.

This is one of those spaces where you cant have it all, no matter how hard you try. Compromises have to exist. There simply isn't space there to get a better door to the exterior without doing a lot of changes. But, the OP's originally proposed change would be the worst proposed change because it destroys an architecturally significant feature of the home. Plus it has hazardously tight aisles.

Perhaps the solution lies in eliminating the bay entirely, much as the OP suggested in use but didn't take to it's logical conclusion. It seems to have so much visceral appeal to everyone that the "Save the Bay" in a functional way is cramping the layouts. If it just went away, then I don't think anyone would object to anything in the OP's original plan except the narrow aisles, and a narrower island in the seating portion and tweaking the beverage center can solve that. There's still the architectural and resale fallout from eliminating the bay, but since it's on the rear of the house, it's not like you'd be taking the nose off of the face of the house. If it weren't there, the "what were they thinking" issue of making it a hallway wouldn't arise at all. That would still leave the problem of the peninsula cooktop, but since the OP has lived with that, she's probably already well aware of it's issues and has a functional overhead venting solution planned.

This thread seems to be going around in circles since the OP hasn't checked in with their thoughts.

With most/all layouts needing many iterations, it's hard to know if any of this is going to be feasible.

It sounded like they had a lot going on with meeting up with contracters and designers. Hopefully we'll hear from them soon, even if it's to tell us that they want to keep their existing layout.

If the OP is okay, without the banquette, I really like Jeannie's plan. One idea, is to have an upholstered bench/settee on one side of the table, to give a similar feel to the banquette.

Nice picture, too...but the OP has the raised counter, behind the range, open to the fireplace room. Good idea, of overall layout, though.

Moving the bar area works really well, for the stools. Would there be room to put a narrow (12" deep) pantry storage, on that wall...and still have room for the stools?

I skipped right to the end of the 28 follow ups to let you all know that I am still here. I've had a busy few days and I need a serious chunk of time to put some thoughts to "paper" after I carefully review each follow-up. I'll be back!

Wow, that was exhausting going through all of those! LOL! My reply is very very long, and I believe/hope that I addressed everything so if you dare...read on. If not, I will give you a brief overview of my thoughts: Of all of the proposed changes I can see Jeannie's vision best. With least amount of fuss, it solves a lot of the issues. Thank you - now read on!

Well, I expected some tweeking, I never expected such an overwhelmingly negative response from every single person (except my neighbor). I'm taking a deep breath and taking into consideration what each of you has offered.

When we began talking through this process with our KD, things we REALLY wanted included:
opening wall into fireplace room
better access to deck/pool
banquette if it worked into the plan
long island with seating and work area separated
better floorplan for mudroom/powder room etc. (I know, off topic)

We actually started with flipping the plan to have kitchen in bump-out, we thought of making the bump-out the banquette, we thought of putting the range on the fridge wall...then the fridge would go to the left of the sink and we'd have the same seating squish we have right now at our current island, not to mention much more complicated range venting. We didn't want to lose the kitchen windows and put the range there, we want/need as much cabinet storage as possible, long story short, we beat up all of the different options on appliance placement and ended up with our appliances and sink in roughly the same locations.

The banquette in the bump-out was too huge and not at all the cozy feel that I wanted. Plus it eliminated that access to the deck that was a priority. Having the eating area in that location (that's where it is now) is not actually ideal here in my area. In the winter it's dark by 5 and having windows all around is cold. In the summer, the sun is at such an angle that it is blinding at dinnertime, right through that space. When I saw the banquette seating option on the back wall corner, I thought: cozy. The "windows" above, BTW, are fixed interior transoms and are there for light/aesthetics.

Island seating & congested walkway: yes, agreed. too tight. I decided to take away the seating on the sink side and keep the other 3 (backless) stools tucked under the island. It measures 48" of open space under the island for seating. It's what my kitchen table has currently and it's fine for 2 side by side. The width IS narrow at 30" but again, the purpose here is homework, snacks, breakfast. I like the idea of scooting the island back 2 inches toward the sink, I think that could work. It will leave 40", but with no traffic and no doors (DW or other).

Wet bar/coffee bar: what about making this more narrow? An 18" deep lower cab vs 24" ? We do want the function but we don't want it in the way either. Still thinking over this one.

Breakfast bar/Range: Do I need MORE seating? Truth be told, not really. What we wanted was that wall open, to view the fireplace, to create better flow to the sunroom. With the range there (and I would absolutely rather it be on a real wall but could not work it into a plan I liked), I just added the raised counter (measured at 18") because nothing else really made sense from a safety perspective. Do you know what I mean? Suggestions here are welcome. Someone offered having the opening to the fireplace room on the sink side vs. the fridge side. We thought of that as well but that would tunnel the flow right at the kitchen sink and that's not what we want either. Ventilation is Best or Faber island hood.

Fridge distance: totally fine. Landing area for fridge is island prep area. Doesn't change from my current situation and it's never been a complaint. Fridge drawers, I'll admit, I think are cool. I plan to put quick and easy snacks and produce in them, plus milk, OJ and drinky things. plus maybe things to prep that days meal. Our new fridge will be built-in so that 36" doesn't have a ton of space as you know. We're maxed out on our current fridge for space.

Open/unused space at bump-out: Didn't I mention that we needed a dance floor? I'm only kind of kidding. I actually love the open space here. I have visions of pulling the round table from the banquette here during parties, with a huge bouquet of flowers & desserts. I have my eye on a beautiful sculpure. I'm thinking plants and art will do this area right.

Bodhi: I'm looking forward to seeing yours too! The area labelled Pantry is not for food but more for bulk storage, platters, small appliances, craft items, vacuum cleaner etc. Our food will go in the cabinetry along the fridge run.

Francoise: that's what I have now (narrow table in the open area) and want a change.

Live Wire: I'm changing that door from the side to the bay area for flow to the deck and pool. We are actually keeping that side door to enter directly into the mudroom and have easy (tiled) access to the bathroom. The bay area door is for open-breezy-easy in and out. I think the traffic pattern, if it remains fairly open works from between the grill, pool/deck, into the bar/bev fridge, into the bathroom. I do agree about the willy nilly seating. My thought was to spread out the seating. I'm now re-thinking the amount of seating at the island and the seating altogether over the range. Flow? It's high on the priority list, I'm putting a lot of thought into your critiques. Your changes (how do you do that?!) while may provide for that flow, makes the fridge even further from the prep area and makes me wonder about venting the range. Plus, the banquette takes up 1/3 of the whole kitchen and I'd lose a lot of needed cabinetry.

Aloha: Thank you for the link (I printed it) and the excerpt. I wish we had that much room! I will definitely ask my KD about the aisle widths. We're going to meet early next week. True about the overhang, I will consider that when asking her. What I mean by the island being integral to the design is that I prep facing out, not in toward my counters. I want to be involved in the stuff the kids are doing or maybe even chatting with a neighbor or my husband when I'm prepping or making school lunches. I can't see losing the island or even not having it easily accessible to the sink, fridge, range, trash. Re: later post, I'm trying (to stay open minded and clear headed). Re: another later post: the pantry is not necessary if I have enough cabinetry around my refridge for the food (that's the plan). The "pantry" is more for utility.

Kirkhall: you may have a point about the "pinch point". I will mock it up and see what happens. I think that nudging the island toward the sink, loosing the seating on the sink side and maybe using 18" instead of 24" lower cabs will definitely help. I feel like if one person plops down at the banquette, it will most likely be in the bench though, not on one of the outside chairs. Not sure how shortening the island with help?

Lavender Lass: Yes, thank you. I will most definitely take your suggestion on the island. The french doors in the bay are the style that one stays closed and only one opens (unless you unlatch the second then they can both open). I do plan on decorating this area with something that doesn't have to be built-in.

GreenDesigns: I don't think it ruins the whole kitchen (leaving the bay open). I really don't need the pantry that LWO came up with because I already have a utility room off of the mudroom with moveable shelves for that kind of storage. The prep/cooking cockpit would make me feel very isolated. I like being more in the middle. The doors to the sunroom are full two-door french doors, they don't get much wider than that. Eliminating the stub wall is a good idea, one I thought we would end up with in the beginning, but it eliminated all of that wall space for furnishing/art and was still a single 36" wide door (or whatever the standard door width is). Re: later post, Right. I think you just can't have it all. It at first glance, appears to be a big, spacious kitchen but in actuality, it's a long, narrow, hard to work with area. "Save the Bay". Your funny. I don't think spending the money to remove the bay would work. I'm sure we could save the bay with some decorating. LOL.

Your plan change is what we had orignally thrown around and ended up not liking b/c of the loss of cabinetry and all the awkward corners as well as the added cost of moving all of the appliances and plumbing. We quickly nixed that one.

Rosie: the theory behind the island AND table seating is that things get busy, and messy. I'm prepping, prepping, cooking, cooking, kids are congregating around the island doing crafts or homework. The banquette is a nice, neat, cozy area that is away from the mess of the kitchen. We have both a table (in the bay) and the dysfunctional island now. I could never go with less seating than I have now. I could absolutely make the bay a seating area with a comfy chair or two and a low table. Good idea.

JeannieMer: Yes. Moving out 2 chairs from island. Check. Moving the island closer to the sink. Check. I already have the table in the bay (don't like it) and my priority of opening the space to the back deck isn't working here. Moving the bar there (in the corner, I especially like) is a good thought but then where does the table go (assuming that we want to exit the room from the bay). Moving the bar really makes all the difference. Can we put the bar in the bay? Love the inspiration pic, that would be my kitchen now exactly (if it were about 3 feet wider - and completely updated and redecorated).

Suburubb: thank you. I doubt you're still reading, but thanks anyway.

This is Bikey's kitchen, from the FKB. The layout, especially the island is very similar. What do you think? The slideshow link is below (I hope)

Here is a link that might be useful: Bikey's kitchen

I know. It's heinously ugly. Pay no mind to the wall color, the materials, the decor or the junk (even though I cleaned it before I took pictures). Maybe it gives more perspective?

Your home says "busy living" all over it and is not heinously ugly at all by virtue of that alone. I'm sorry if my response struck you as among the complete redos. I like a lot about your plan, your whole house, in fact, and should have said so. You do have a supreme advantage over everyone else, of course, in trying to design your kitchen in that you've lived with it for some time and are the only one who knows what you really need and want.

As for the perspective pictures bring, as a gardener I'll always think opening up the inside and outside areas to each other and inviting them to be friends, instead of just neighbors, is a good thing.