debrak thank you for the suggestion for the dishwasher. I read what you and Lisa wrote then went in the kitchen to experiment and it will be fine. So thank you cause at first I thought this definitely would have to be moved

Hollysprings I agree you should be aware of the style of the house, but this time around I'm doing what I want in the moment. I have always had newly built houses, but when I seen this house I fell in love with it cause I thought I could do everything I want. I think it may be considered a four square...lol. But we plan on never moving so it's gonna be my way this time...lol. Here is a pic of the houe when we firt bought it. We have since removed the trees and painted the front door, but I told my husband we are not doing anything with the exterior til my kitchen is done...lol Here are pics of the exterior.

sena01 I am so glad you posted. I was so hoping you would. I am new to the forums and have been admiring your work. You come up with great ideas so any input you have would be greatly appreciated. I really like the idea of being able to have at least 2 seats on the island cause it would be nice to sit while doing the prep especially during the holidays. Sometimes there is 3 working in the kitchen but more often there is 2. I would love to see the pics of your modern kitchen! I luv the idea of the small pullout pantry for the mops and such. Then I wouldn't have the messy dirty items in my pantry.

I am adding pics of another design the KD did. I thought I put it up but evidently didn't. Please look through the designs and let me know what you think or if you can come up with a whole different better idea I would welcome the suggestion. Thank you!

Sena and Lisa and Anyone who may be viewing this thread. If anyone thinks there is a completely different better idea than a version that the KD came up with I would love the input. I am not set to the design the KD did and if you have a completely different idea please let me know. The people in this forum are so AWESOME. I wish I started posting sooner. Thank you to all!

I'm so glad I was able to help!

I think there's a way to get two seats at the island but I need to know exactly where that post is. I need the dimensions for the distances between top wall and right top corner of the post and between the right side wall and the right top corner of the post (see red lines on drawing).

Re: your question about width of the island. If you only do one row of 24" deep cabs, then your island would be 27" wide. If you do a row of 24" deep cabs back to back with a run of shallow cabs (9"-12", depending on that pillar and other clearances), then your island would be deeper by that much. If you add seats, your island would be 40.5" deep.

27" deep island:
24" deep cabs
3" total counter overhang (1.5" overhang on all sides)

36" deep island (as your KD drew)
24" deep cabs along front
9" deep cabs along the back
3" total counter overhang

40.5 deep island
24" deep cabs along front
1.5" counter overhang along the front
15" seating overhang (this is the minimum rec per NKBA).

Given the space constraints due to the post, your island will likely be a combination of depths to give you what you want. I'll know more once you provide the post's dimensions to me. Also, could you explain more what you mean by "...I am going to angle the one side and have a built in Niche' with a tall sculpture with accent lighting." Angle in which direction? Towards the bottom right corner of the drawing? I'm quite confused what you mean by this. I also don't know what you mean by "The column protrudes about 8 inches." Do you mean the support post? It's 8" in diameter? Or do you mean the wall with the niche in it is 8" wide?

You can include an appliance garage in the top right corner of the kitchen in my Plan A or B. That seems the most convenient location since it would be close to a water source and mostly likely close to where you'll store you coffee cups.

For some odd reason, the end of my final sentence in my post above went missing so I'll finish my thought now. I've no idea whether 1 bank of drawers will house your "complete set of 8 dinner plates, bowls, salad plates, etc." I don't know the size of your plates or what the etc includes. The best way to figure out how much storage you need is to mock up a drawer with the depth and width of your proposed drawer - blue painters tape on your counter would work - and lay your dishes "inside" the drawer. Remember to mark the inside dimensions of the drawer, not the outside dimensions. The inside of a drawer will likely be around 3" narrower than the cab but that will depend on your cab construction.

......I thought I'd seen the worst of the designs by your KD but I was wrong. That last one completely ignores the NKBA recommendations for clearance space around a cook top - at least 12" on one side and 15" on the other. You're not getting your money's worth out of him at all and I'm really sorry about that, for your sake.

Thanks for the compliment, hollysprings and sena!

It's probably very obvious for experts, but KD's 2nd plan (the one with the angled island) confused me.Which wall is the load bearing one?

Another question. If I'm reading the numbers correctly, the pantry cabs seem to have different widths in layout 1, and the one tweaked from it. Why??

I couldn't figure it out either, Sena, but I didn't really try because I didn't want to waste my time studying a lay-out that I thought was less than optimal.

I think Lisa's layout are usually much better than the KD's. If I ever need to do a reno, I'm posting here and getting Lisa's help...and Sena's wonderful sketches :)

duplicate post...

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Fri, Jan 31, 14 at 21:12

Lisa the measurements from the top wall to right corner post are 10' 10".

Right side wall to right post is 5'8"

Lisa I was not able to find a pic of how I want the Niche so hopefully between these pics you will understand what I mean. It should not affect any of the dimensions. The column will be angled instead of squared off. There will be a square cut into the wall that will hold the sculpture with down lighting on the sculpture.
It will have a long narrow cutout like the pic below

the column will have a 45 degree angle like this wall below

Here are some actual pictures. Keep in mind we are in the construction faze and we doing the demolition part ourselves. Living in the house while this is going on is no picnic...lol

The pic below is the corner support column. The view is from me standing in the existing partially demolished kitchen. Hopefully from these pics you will get a better sense of the area.

In the pic below I am in the family room and the view to the left is the kitchen, then back of column, to the right is the existing sunroom.

Pic below I am in the sunroom and this is the other side of the column. This is where I want to put the Niche'.

Pic below is closeup of column from me standing in sunroom.

Pic below this is the sculpture I want to put in and the Niche' will be in the middle of the column maybe eye level or slightly higher cause the sculpture is long.

Pic below showing height of sculpture

Lisa, the angled island design was by another KD, all the other designs are the KD, and before that I went to Home Depot, Lowe's, and Ikea. For some reason I can't find anyone qualified until now with everyone helping me on this wonderful site.

Sena the pics below are in the existing Sunroom. The wall to the left is the weight bearing wall. I am standing in the family room taking the pic. Please keep in mind we bought the house not long ago and the Sunroom and the Kitchen are the worst...lol.

Pic below closeup of Load Bearing Wall. This wall is the divide between the Kitchen and the Sunroom. The KD said this wall had to go cause there was no way to fit the appliances I have in storage in the space.

The pic below is where the KD shows as a 42" wall. I was going to make it into a half wall and when I seen it I didn't like it so I knocked the whole wall out not realizing I would leave a hole in my floor that goes straight to the basement...lol. Gotta love old houses....lol. The exterior door is to the right.

Oh, I have no idea why the KD has different widths for the pantry cabinets.

OMG! The ''KD'' just keeps getting worse. Find someone else to deal with.They are dangerously clueless. It's like they are playing with a set of blocks without being able to read the alphabet on them.

Lisa, in your Plan A if my Refrigerator is set back a little I will not be able to fully open the Refrigerator door so I think it will have to be even with the basement door so I can fully open it.

Holly, I know. I think he is playing with building blocks. Now you know why I am soooo stressed and frustrated. I am from Jersey and there I had no problems finding qualified KD to do my kitchen, but when we moved to West Virginia I am having a very hard time finding a qualified KD.

Thanks for providing the dimensions I requested, nene, and posting photos. It really helped me visualize your space. I've drawn up two more plans for you that, as accurately as possible, take into account the post's impact on your kitchen planning.

First off, disregard Plans A & B. They won't work because of the post's location. I don't know what your KDs were smoking when they drew up plans with seating at the island but they must have been smoking something to think that there is enough room for an island with seating in your kitchen. By my calculations, there would only be 22" between seating overhang and post. You could only pull the bar stool out so far before banging it into the post. And forget about walking between island and post. Poor, poor planning.

Plan D is a variation of Plan A.

I shifted the island 2 inches closer to the cook top run to give you 37.5" between post and island. My aim was to make that space seem spacious enough so that people walking between back door and fridge or back door and basement stairs would walk around the backside of the island and not through the working part of your kitchen.

I tried to figure out a way to add seating to the island but that post's location ruled out all my ideas (really tested my math skills, too!).

For Plan C, I embraced the post, making it a purposeful part of the kitchen.

You gain a huge island with seating for 2 (the yellow block in the center of the island is a void between cabinets and counter support).

The downside of this plan is that the island's shape could direct traffic through the working part of the kitchen, not around the bottom of the island, to get to the fridge or basement stairs. One way to deal with the former situation would be to put in fridge drawers or a beverage fridge in the island facing the back door.

Plan C won't work if your couch stays where it's shown in your photos. It looks like it's either right up against or very close to the post. Island and couch would create a massive roadblock to traffic moving through that space. Hopefully, you can rearrange your furniture so that's not an issue.

Are you sure that post has to stay? If you haven't consulted a structural engineer, I would do so. You may discover a reasonable solution that would allow you to remove it, gaining you more leeway in your kitchen planning. You could always create a lighted niche for your statue in another location in your home.

NOTE: I didn't say this earlier but all my aisle clearances are counter edge to counter edge, counter edge to appliance face or counter edge to wall.

(Thanks for the compliment, LL. You always have kind words for me.)

Think about relocating that door on the right since it's an open concept space now. That would allow the cleanup sink cabinets to continue down to the other post and provide a better traffic path and more cabinetry.

Lisa you are awesome. I so glad you are helping me. Plan D is hard for me to visualize from the sketch. That's why the KD has to do both for me cause I'm the type that really has to see it to figure if it will work for me.

It seems like in C the island would actually be where my weight bearing wall is. I have not consulted a structural engineer yet. But, i think I'm going to have to.

Do you think a whole new design should be done a different way since you are thinking I am not going to have much space? I value your opinion so let me know what you think.

Yes, my furniture can be moved but it will block the other opening going into my formal living room. I'm gonna go tonight and buy some graph paper to draw my house layout so you can see what I mean and I will try to take some pics so you can see.

Holly yes you are right moving the door would allow better traffic flow, but I can't move it to the right cause then it would open into my family room and cause the house is on the corner I have a front door and a side door and everybody uses the side door in more than front door, and also if it was moved it would be next to my living room window actually real close to it.

Here is the view from the family room showing the archway into the living room so if I move it it will block that opening also.

you can see the window and how close it is to the door.

This post was edited by nene45 on Sat, Feb 1, 14 at 22:57

nene--

Where in WV are you? There used to be a good KD (I think) in Morgantown if you're anywhere near that town. BTW I'm from Jersey too (near Philly), but we moved here from the DC area. It's been quite the culture shock. Good luck to you getting settled.

Wow! You guys are great! Lisa, your plans are so much better than what was originally presented. My first thought when looking at the original designs was why is that wall not being utilized --you guys saw it too and presented alternatives.
Taking up all that space in the original plan for the frig seems crazy.
NeNe--Good luck with your renovation--it looks like a great project.

Imp.capensis I'm in tyler county, wv about 2 hours from morgantown. where r u in wv? most of my family is from south philly. what part of philly are you from? small world..lol
.

Just a few suggestions you may consider with Lisa's very functional layouts.

1. You can resize the cabs on the range wall and have a shallow broom closet facing the basement door next to the oven cab. Lots of examples here.

2. Did you see Linodendron's post of Jan 24, 14 at 18:36 on this tread.

In my kitchen my prep area and cooktop are on my right, but I usually find myself working on a much smaller area on the left of the sink I think this is because I'm left handed (I do the same thing in our summerhouse as well). So if you think you'll prefer having the prep area on your left I suggest you to have the prep sink near the fridge side. I find that arrangement better also because anything you get from the fridge that needs washing can go to the sink immediately instead of landing on your prep area. So from the fridge side it can be trash, sink and 2 cabs; last one facing the DW (trash on the cleanup sink could be under the main sink).

For island seating, other than Lısa's triangular one, the only shape that I could think of was using (half of) an asymmetrical hexagon for the bar.

Lisa, or anyone one following this tread, can you please check my numbers and logic? Does it make any sense?

Long side would be 60" (assumed 90" long island) the short sides about 21,21". (that is a right angled triangle with 2 equal sides (15").). But, .there'd be just 29,5" b/w the 60" part and the FR opening. On the niche side, if both the beam and the island bar would make a 45 degree angle then you'd keep the 37,5 aisle Lisa calculated, for the length of the beam. On the other side, at the point bar reaches 15" depth there'd be a distance of about 37,5" to the end of the opening.

I have strange shaped pantry in the drawing, because KD has different length for that wall in his 2 layouts. .

Nene, some pics from my kitchen are in this tread.

edited to add some more dimensions.

This post was edited by sena01 on Sun, Feb 2, 14 at 8:55

I grew up in Cherry Hill, NJ, eons ago; my dad worked in Philly. We're in Harrison Co. about a half hr SW of Clarksburg; I think you and I are separated by Doddridge & Ritchie counties. I'm guessing Parkersburg is the closest big town to you. When I was looking for KDs in the area, I came across websites for one or some in Marietta, just across the river in OH. Such a pretty little town that is. But I don't know anything about them other than what their websites show. I'm really liking what the talented people here are coming up with for your kitchen. In particular, the pantry/fridge configuration sena01 is showing in her latest is helping me rethink my space. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all comes together for you.

Omg! Sena thank u so much for the sketch. Now I can visualize. After seeing it now I don't know what I want. I was gonna take out the weight bearing wall cause the kitchen was so small but now seeing it well it doesn't look much bigger once I bring the pantry out.

Do you know what the size of my kitchen would be? I brought a table in my kitchen to figure spaces and now I know why you need at least 40".

It seems like I'm going to have to decide between style or function. Ugh. I did like the pic Lisa posted up above that had a funky island.

The program I'm using calculates the kitchen area as 208 sq ft and the pantry as 25 sq ft (if the small area behind the fridge area isn't available then it's 22 sq ft).

I wouldn't consider 208 sq ft as small, but I'm used to much smaller kitchens. In our summer house my kitchen is just 96 sq ft, and my other kitchen with 161,5 sq ft seems quite large to me.

Sena I tried pulling the measurement off of the layout and if I'm figuring right if I figure from where the pantry door is to the exterior door is about 17' and width is about 11'???? Did I figure right? Sena is it possible for you to put Lisa's layout of the triangle island in a pic like you did with the last one? It would give me a better idea of how it would look. Btw what software do you use?

Lisa with my kitchen is the problem the support beam or is it the width of the kitchen is too narrow? We got hit with a bad snow storm. As soon as it clears I'm gonna get some graph paper and sketch the downstairs of my house unless I can find something on line to do it. We are getting rid of the arches in the downstairs to open the spaces. I am trying to do the kitchen as inexpensive as I possibly can, cause we have a lot of rooms to redo. Because we are redoing the downstairs I can steal space from other rooms if need be.

Does anyone know if there is any graph paper online to sketch your plan on line or easy to use software to redesign your and change closed off rooms to open floor plan?

Imp I have to ask if you are Italian? I am and the areas were you were in Jersey and in Clarksburg are primarily Italian. All my family is from South Philly too so I was always in Philadelphia. I will have to check into some KD's in Marietta, but so far what Lisa and Sena are doing is unbelievable. I'm have to talk to my KD and find out wth he was thinking and why the measurements are different.

Italy is about the only European country my ancestors are not from (although my Hungarian grandma spent some time in Italy as an au pair), but there were big Italian families in our neighborhood. Pretty sure their extended families were in Philly.

Lisa and Sena have come up with great ideas for your space. They really listen, which seems like at least half the job of a good designer, and then they do their magic. It will be interesting to hear what your KD says when you show him what they (and you) have come up with.

Sena I tried pulling the measurement off of the layout and if I'm figuring right if I figure from where the pantry door is to the exterior door is about 17' and width is about 11'???? Did I figure right? Sena is it possible for you to put Lisa's layout of the triangle island in a pic like you did with the last one? It would give me a better idea of how it would look. Btw what software do you use?

Yes, I went with the measurement on KD's drawings.Mind you, I'm no pro my walls sometimes move lol, but I tried to be as close to the measurements as I can, before I gave you the area.

I'll try to draw Lisa's island and post pics. The program I'm using is Home Designer Interiors, not free unfortunately (abt $.100.- now I think).

Some treads about free design programs:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg1211371417837.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg012147428493.html

Pics are ready. I had the beam placed diagonally before, forgot to change it, so it doesn't touch the island as Lisa's. It'll look great imo.

Omg! Sena you did an AMAZING job! I am just speechless. From these pics I really get a feeling of a real kitchen. I really did not not think the triangle would look as good as it does, but it does look good. Even down to the wall colors.

I hate to ask but are you able to do that with her plan D? I am thinking I may have to get an engineer out here cause it would be so nice open with that column gone.

and again Thank you, thank you, thank you!

No problem at all. I just change the islands, that's all, very easy

Boy oh boy that was quick Sena. Thank you! What size is the island? Hmmm I'm not sure which one I like better. Which one do you like better?

I was watched the tutorial of the software you use, and what it does is unbelievable. It reminds me of HGTV. It looks like it takes a lot to learn. You are very talented.

I have Chief Architect but I've yet to spend the time to learn it (large learning curve but once learned, very slick) so I'm glad you're able to provide nene with 3-D images of my plans, sena. Thank you for doing that!

Nene, I like the triangle island, too, but I'm concerned about how it will affect the living room, especially given the limited options you have for placing that large sectional sofa. Unless you plan to replace it, you need to consider its impact on your kitchen plans. For that reason, if the post must stay, I think my Plan D is your best bet. It's still a very nice work space with loads of storage and counter.

Where is your dining room?

Lisa, I actually haven't decided where I am putting the dining room yet. I'm thinking it may be the room connecting to the family room which is on the other side of the wall where the pantry is. It is totally open since we removed the arch that divided the 2 rooms. Where the previous owner had situated the rooms did not make much sense to me. Since we moved in we move furniture from room to room while working on the house.

I'm gonna draw on a paper the layout of the house and post shortly just so you can get an idea of the space. I will post shortly.

I had a contractor come out and he gave me a computerized drawing of the room with nothing in it. I'm gonna post that to so you can see.

Nena- I'm putting a link below for grid paper you can print out

Here is a link that might be useful: grid paper link

Sena: You do very well with that program you have. You have come up with way more functional designs than Nene's KD could even conceive!

I'm definitely not a designer, but I think I preferred your design that had the fridge closer to the "work area". You go to your fridge multiple times during the day and especially during meal prep. You go to the oven less often. Maybe the fridge and the oven could be swapped.

What about incorporating the column into the island, instead of having that small "aisle" between the two? In this way, perhaps it would create a tiny amount of additional storage space, or even a little more stool space.

Also, perhaps the wall extending in front of the pantry could be moved back, leaving a shorter wall for a more open look. Is there any way you could do a pic with this set-up so I can see how far off-base I am?

Nene: After looking at the plans your KD came up with and the plans Sena came up with, I personally think you should dump your KD and hire Sena (lol). If you don't live within a reasonable proximity of each other, it seems Sena could design your kitchen on-line. She's good.
Is your KD certified, or does he/she just work for the cabinetry company? It seems that the original plans were laid out to accommodate cabinetry, not form or function. The revised plans were better only after you showed Sena's plans. The D in KD stands for designer..IMHO your KD needed a design already done so tweaks could be made to show he/she had a clue.

The best design is the one that works for you. When we did our kitchen in a previous house, I wrote down all the things I stored in the kitchen and with a hand drawn mock-up floor plan, designed cabinets around where I felt they were functional for me. I tried acting out a full day - from making the first pot of coffee in the morning to late night snacks. Was the pantry comfortable for prep area and cooktop? Were glasses near the cold drinks? Were plates and cutlery handy to the cooktop? Were prep and cleanup comfortable, with as little walking back and forth as possible. Believe me, I had to "redesign" many times (which meant a lot of redrawing) before I was satisfied.

As for removing that column completely, if it is load bearing, it probably lines up with a 2nd story support, which supports the roof and a basement one (if there's a basement) that supports the main level. If it is removed, it could mean installing a large beam above the opening to the kitchen to rest on some other support on the main level and relocating the second storey AND the basement supports. The load must be continual from the roofline to lowest level. A structural engineer must definitely be consulted. We had a friend that did this and it cost her over $10,000. To her it was worth it..she wanted a full open concept. For me, I'd first try to work around it if possible.

Sorry, I got very long-winded here. Good luck with all your plans--for the kitchen and the rest of your renos.

This is the Layout of the 1st floor in the pic below. To the right in kitchen I tried to draw a door and made lines going down the basement steps. I did not want to continue drawing more lines cause I thought it may to confusing trying to figure what is kitchen and what is basement.

The things that look like D's are Doors, squares on the walls are windows. This is my 1st time drawing so I hope you can understand it.

The pic below is from a Contractor that came out and measured. He came out before we knocked out some of the wall. So the wall that says 23'6" has been partially knocked out. You can see that from the KD's measurements. These measurements may shed some light on the pantry size cause the size should not have changed at all.

@canuckplayer, all the layouts are made by lisa_a. I just used a program to show some renderings.

@lisa, nene, I loved the triangle island, but as Lisa indicated it has some limitations. If you can get of that beam out of the way, I think you'll have your super modern kitchen and it will be very functional too, THANKS TO LISA,. Lisa, can't wait to see your layouts with Chief Architect, I'm sure you'll soon learn and use it very good.

Nene, have you considered swapping the DR and the FR? A table in the same space as the large sectional would likely allow you to go with the triangle island plan.

btw, if you go with the triangle plan, you may be able to eliminate upper cabinets on the cook top wall. You'll have plenty of storage supplied by the large walk-in pantry and base cabinets. You could keep the windows and create a very bright, airy, modern space. IMO, it would not be the worst thing in the world to have your Keurig and toaster on the counter, not with all those windows.

If you post your FR and DR space - with dimensions and windows and doorways marked - with the dimensions of the furniture you own or intend to purchase on the Home Decorating forum, you would likely get tips on how to place the furniture to make the most of each space.

(Sena, it was very kind of you to make sure I got credit for the plans, thank you.)

Here is a link that might be useful: Home Decorating & Design

Lisa I have no problem changing rooms. the only problem that I am having is my furniture from my other house was very large. The only thing I really kept from there was the dining room furniture. Here is a pic of a dining room table similar to mine that I found on the net, but I also have the server and I am trying to see where it will fit. If I can fit it somewhere I can change the room and it wont be an issue. I', going to get new furniture laer so I'm not worried about the sectional cause right now everything ust moves from room to room.

I like the idea of no upper cabinets but it will drive me nuts seeing things on the counter so I have to find a spot for the coffee maker and the toaster.

I will check out that thread though.

@lisa_a: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to slight you. This thread has become so long, I guess I lost track. Your plans and Sena's renderings are both really great!

Update: 2 Contractors came out today and the Engineer is scheduled for next week. The structural pillar that I want removed is a major issue from what they are telling me, but I am crossing my fingers and hoping that what the Engineer says has to be done will not be at an extreme cost. So my fingers are crossed!

Didn't see your comment until now, canuckplayer, sorry. Thanks for the apology but it's okay, I know how easy it is to overlook something in these long threads.

Thanks for the update, nene. Fingers crossed for you!

I was reading through some of the post and it was mentioned since I have the walk in pantry maybe I could eliminate most of the upper cabinets and put windows that way it would give a more modern look and make the room look bigger. I think I am going to go for the rectangular island as in Lisa's design D.

Lisa do you think it is possible to get rid of most of the upper cabinets? I know I will need a space for the exhaust and I want a tall kitchen garage for my coffee maker, but do you think this will be doable?

Thank you!

Nene, only you can determine if the pantry and all your base cabs will provide enough storage for you to forgo upper cabinets. Take an inventory of what you own (measurements included) and where you'd like to store them and go from there.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a tall appliance garage but I would make it the same height as the oven cab so that it bookends that wall. Here are a few images that hopefully show you what I mean:

(See range wall in this image)

[

[Tropical Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/tropical-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2108) by Manchester General Contractors Windover Construction

[

[Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Other Metro Kitchen & Bath Designers Garrett Dillon Crafted Kitchens & Furniture

[

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Boston Kitchen & Bath Designers Venegas and Company