I could write a book it would take so long to detail the negative aspects of our recent remodel. Instead, I'll just say, you can't be too careful when choosing your GC or KD. Don't use this guy. His ego is going to get in the way of you getting what you want. There are plenty of contractors out there. If the others can't get back to you in a month, forget about them and keep looking. Keep in mind that it's very hard to get a good estimate without detailed plans and the plans should be as close to final as possible. You can continue to interview contractors but you should wait till you have the final plans in hand before requesting bids. It's a lot of work for them and a big waste of time if the plans keep changing. But also remember that changing things on paper is cheap...get it right BEFORE you start.

We bought all of our fixtures, appliances and tile and saved a lot of money doing it this way. I would never use a GC who didn't allow this unless he passed his discount on to me. The appliances were installed by a guy recommended from the store where I bought them. Tile will be done by an independent tile contractor (fired GC a long time ago).

Take a deep breath and take your time. It's your project not theirs.

I see red flags here with the KD.

Like you, I've done a nightmare renovation and I've learned the very hard way about the importance of communication and laying out who is responsible for what.

I think the problems start and end with the KD. She has not completed the first phase of her job if you don't have a good layout and the drawings you were promised. Forget if she is good with project management; there's no project to manage until you have a layout you want to bid out.

I think the plans were bid prematurely if you don't have a layout you like. It's possible that the other contractors have not gotten back to you yet because they see the problems with what they've been given, especially inadequate measurements, and they cannot give numbers with any confidence.

You need to have a sitdown now with the KD. Tell her where you are: the layout is not there and you need to slow this process down. You should not be willing to rush through planning or bid a job with incomplete drawings for the sake of getting the work underway. If you want to keep working with this KD, insist that the two of you need to keep working on the layout until you're happy.

Before you bring in GCs to bid, you should also talk with the KD about how she usually works with GCs - does she offer different levels of services? Can she be/do you want her to be on site everyday as a de facto project manager, or does she stop in a couple of times a week to check progress? Does she plan to coordinate any trades herself? What can she order and get a discount on, and what do you want to do yourself or have the GC do?

When you bring in GCs to bid, you need to be clear to them about what the KD is doing and what you expect them to do. Clear as in, have a list in front of you and a copy for them. GCs make money by putting together a package of services and goods at competitive prices; if you take away some of those services or goods (KD has her own tile guy for the backsplash, for example, or you want to buy appliances yourself), the GC makes less on the job and runs the risk of losing money if you or the KD aren't able to fulfill your responsibilities on his schedule (ie appliances are on backorder, tile guy is booked solid for a month). You'll need to find a GC who's willing to work with the KD and with you. Some won't, and that's not necessarily bad; however, you'll also need to rethink the KD's role if every GC says her role as you're presenting it to them during bidding is unworkable.

At this point, in your shoes I'd (1) organize a meeting with the KD and (2) call the GCs and ask them to hold off for now, as what you've given them isn't complete and you should have the project more fully defined in X number of weeks.

At this point, YOU are acting as the GC. You're wanting to control the renovation, and you've hired one sub--your KD. You're now trying to to hire a GC, but you're having a hard time doing it, maybe because you're going about it slightly backwards to many remodels. Usually, you get the GC first, then the cabinet design from a KD he works with, then the other materials and labor from other sources he has worked with and is familiar with.

Frankly, if you want as much control as you sound like, you're going to have a difficult time of finding a GC to work with you. Selection of materials is a customer job. Sourcing those materials is the GC's job, and usually part his profit. It may be better for you to GC the job yourself since you have already sourced most of your materials. All you really need at this point is construction and trades labor. Very very few GC's want to take on a job where they are expected to assume responsiblity of a homeowner material sourced job. It's not just the profit, it's the specs of everything and the timing of everything. THat's part o what you pay a GC for, and you're already assuming some of that responsibility by locking in your selections to sources you want---and that may or may not interfere with the scheduling and labor of the actual job. If that special order sink from England doesn't come in on time, or comes in damaged, you'll have to deal with that (and pay for the time overages) if you sourced and supplied it. If you specify to the contractor that you want XX sink, and let him order it from wherever he wants, it may cost more and he may have delays too, but it's his problem to deal with. That's what you pay a GC for.

You could prepare your bid proposal documents specified for the materials that you want, and let your contactor approach his regular sources for each. Then compare bids. That lets him assume his traditional role as GC, including the role of being responsible for the whole job.

Or you could continue down the road of being your own GC. Really, from your description, it sounds like you only want a GC for his problem solving skills when something goes wrong, but you'd rather control things the rest of the time. Unfortunately, that's having your cake and eating it too. You're going to have to make up your mind here.

Your project may be more involved than mine but here is what I did.
I hired KD before I met GC. Bought cabinets and layout plans from her. That was the end of the relationship from a business point of view.

Interviewed several GC's (8) and their workers: got estimates from their plumbers and electricians so I could compare apples to apples. Just when I was about to hire someone, one of the plumbers I liked suggested another GC. I met him and hired him.

Most important to me was someone eager to stay on schedule, able to communicate, and organized. All the people I hired I have to say were NICE people. I wanted to make sure there were no personality issues.

I went through each GC's itemized contract and met with their electricians and plumbers. If I did not like one of their workers for whatever reason - shoving my dog out of the way, their lack of respect for my home, attitude, cleanliness - I made a mental note of it and told the GC I would like to see if I can find another plumber, electrician, whatever. In the end, I can say everyone who has been here (except for one painter) was very, very considerate and nice.

Now I did have a problem with the measurements. KD says it's GC; GC says it's KD. In any event, the problem was fixed although i lost 5/8 space on two walls and had to pay for the error myself. THe KD store was the humble one (they had made another error which they admitted) and were more than fair in taking care of me. I knew they were honest and reliable from the start, so although I was distraught at the time of the problem, in the back of my mind somehow I knew they would take care of it, and they did. I sort of feel guilty I ever complained about them, because they took care of everything to my satisfaction.

I hired the stone fabricators, after visiting 12 different fabricators - looked for competence, cleanliness, organization, and of course the best stone I could find at the best price. I interviewed several floor people and wanted to hire my own, but GC said his floor guy would match my floor guy's price. I bought the appliances. I met with a color designer. So I was a semi manager (which you cannot avoid anyway).

In all of these, I did not go with the highest bidder nor the lowest bidder but usually ended up with the people in the middle - and again those that were prompt in answering questions and getting estimates to me, those that promised to work day to day until completion, hours they would work (usually 8 to 4:30; 4 days until 9 p.m.) cleanliness, organization - most important respectful and no personality issues.

If you have conflicts now, they will only exacerbate once the job is started.

Oh, one more (MOST IMPORTANT) thing. Make sure everything is included in the contract and read the fine print with respect to overruns and cost. My GC had a 15% extra cost on top of time and materials for every little extra I asked for. So negotiate that and have a backup GC you like. Read and reread that contract.

You have all hit on some key points...thanks. Messed up here and haven't even started. :-( I thought I thought this through....

The original bid given to contractors included the same plan for each of them, maybe not exact cabinet numbers, but the layout was the same, sink here, fridge there, range here, this wall moved, this amount of countertop space, this many new can lights, and this general design for cabinets. And included that she would provide materials (not labor) for tile, flooring, appliances and countertop. Wanted to compare apples to apples. Figured they could all get back to me with questions, and once I hired the GC, whatever changes would be written before work began (granted knowing small changes could occur depending on unforeseen problems or supply issues or mind changes). Did not foresee the floorplan going through so many changes.

I really don't want to be my own GC. I don't want to take the time to find an electrician, a flooring guy, a plumber, etc. I guess I didn't stop to think that if the GC does that...then they supply the materials as well. I'd prefer to go bask on the beaches of hawaii and have the job done for me! Sadly no winning lotto ticket last night.

And I guess I really didn't stop and ask the KD what she supplies or the full scope of her job. I don't want to have to be the one responsible because the dishwasher was installed wrong and floods the first floor and not have someone to call. Plus I need a good working relationship with each person walking in the house.

None of the previous contractors indicated a problem with the KD, they all met her and were given the same Scope of Work. None indicated issues with supplies either.

I need to sit down and rethink this process, meet with the KD and see what we can do.'

thanks again!

First of all - YOU should NOT have to be going through all of the CRAP!!!

In a perfect world - this whole process should )actually) be FUN - However,
since this is NOT a "perfect world" - there MAY be set backs, delays and/or cost
over runs - but generally speaking (IMHO) this process should still have a
reasonable amount of "fun" still in the contents....

Zeebee said what I was going to say too - red flags with your present KD....

Also - there's TONS of wisdom being put out here by the likes of Cheri 127,
Zeebee, Live Wire Oak and Kitchenconfidential 2....

I'll add my own .02 cents on this as well - There are MANY people who will
pretend to be KD's - maybe because they did a whole ONE remodel of THEIR OWN kitchen,
or have watched some TV shows on remodeling, or are really good at researching
stuff on the internet - THESE attributes DO NOT qualify folks
to be real honest to goodness KD's.

The folks that actually ARE the "real deal" (real Kitchen DESIGNERS - NOT "decorators")
ACTUALLY have CREDENTIALS, KNOWLEDGE & EXPERIENCE to back up
the "talk they talk - with the walk they walk"....

Sounds to me like you have "gotten in bed" with a "pretend" KD - a "decorator" (IMHO)
that may know "pretty" - but does not have clue about how "looking pretty"
gets executed into BEING pretty - the actual application of each trade and
the materials that are used - along with how things go into place,
and "the order of battle" -
TO MAKE A FINISHED PRODUCT THAT IS YOUR KITCHEN PROJECT.

Most "decorators" are really good with color, and can pick out drapes,
but when ot comes to laying out a kitchen in CAD for cabinets AND countertops -
they're "looking like a scared deer in the headlights" :-o

They're clueless when it comes to "what gets done first, then what, and so on.
I despise "decorators" they make guy's lives (like mine) in the trades - A LIVING HELL,
and....
There's days where I'm sure that other guys like me fantasize about -
"if MERCY KILLING were LEGAL" -
"decorators" be the on the TOP OF THE LIST!!!

But alas - as the saying goes:

"Decorators - Can't Live WITH 'em - Can't KILL 'em" HA!!!!

Anyways - all playful kidding aside........

It also sounds to me - like (from the amount of time that you are waiting on two or
three other bids - that EITHER the other GC's don't want to work with you
beacuse of your current KD imposter - OR - business is really good in your
area.. I hope it's the latter - because here in AZ = GC's are breaking the sound
barrier to get bids back to customers - so they can get more volume of work.

Your in a tuff spot, but if you stay cool and READ everything that gets put in front
of you to sign - and UNDERSTAND IT - you will be ahead of the curve.....

I'd be looking for a REAL KD in the mean time - contact NKBA to find some
other prospects in your area.... a link is below for you to check out...

hth

kevin

The KD actually has the NKBA affliliation. Problem is she generally works with one specific contractor. In order to get a quote I was comfortable with I talked with three other contractors to get a feel for what costs what. And I didn't necessarily love her contractor guy. That alone I think brings up many of the issues, she is trying to work things the same way with these other contractors who don't know anything about her.

I am meeting with her tomorrow to review layouts and talk things through. She seems to have a good sense of NKBA guidelines and product selection but may be lacking in the creative layout design.

I don't know that I can really tell her we are done at this point (fire her so to speak) but I think going forward we both really need to know what to expect and she may need to let go of some control, especially if I go with a different contractor.

I need some fun and would rather not raid the liquor store every week ;-)

She may have NKBA affiliation but I too see red flags here and would seriously consider finding someone else. It's never too late, not even in the middle of a project but the longer you wait the more it costs. We should have cut our GC loose when I got the first bad feeling, but we were in the game for $10K and DH was reluctant. HA! Little did we know that would have been a bargain!!!!!

For our first kitchen remodel, the KD was also the GC. He was expensive but his subs were awesome. However, I think it's more common to have a KD for cabinets and design and a GC to run the project and hire subs. I would also expect the GC to get all materials including windows, doors, appliances, tile, fixtures and flooring (if I weren't supplying them myself). Then,KD is responsible for measurements and cabinet specs and GC is responsible for everything except the cabinet order and specs. If the order and specs are right and GC messes up the install, it's his/her responsibility.

IMPORTANT ADVICE: you sign off on all drawings. If a mistake is made in measurements or specs on a drawing you signed off on, it's your mistake not the KD's. I was soooooooo careful and still missed two errors. Measure everything yourself, twice, and go over your plans with a fine tooth comb and magnifying glass before you sign.

Like Cheri127 I have liked working with 1 company for everything. My prior MB and current Kitchen remodel are done with one company that has the KD and workers all as employees. The KD is at the job frequently and responsible for everything. Any question, any change, he is seldom stumped and seldom misses. Every one there has been so nice to work with, even the guy that picks up the trash daily.

The crew that did my job did excellent work, the same 2 are doing the kitchen. The only subs were licensed elec, plumb, counters and shower door. I would not call it a bargin, like Cheri127 I would say it leaned towards expensive but I picked something. Quality and performance cost.

I paid for a design and was free to shop it around, or credit it towards the job cost. At design time the KD was pricing out their products, e.g. Decor cabs. Without the KD specifying and pricing cabs I can't see how it could work. The various cabs lines have some differences, plus you have to be a dealer to buy.

> he isnt buying (and receiving kickback Im sure) cabinets, tile or granite

That would be called a "profit" and they deserve to make money if they know how to sell and support the product.

Your situation sounds like a mess. I would take your designs to a company that specilizes in Kicthens and has a designer. You should get a free quote and maybe a reduced price on final design. I think you want someone that knows the products they sell, and knows how to build a kitchen. You should like to work with them. Kiss a few frogs.

My KD could take me around his show room and explain the pros and cons of each cab line. He really knew them right down to pull outs, hardware and hinges. He knew which ones delivered better matched wood and stain, and what higher quality would cost. He knew the other required products from them having sold and installed.

I would agree with "IMPORTANT ADVICE" to check those drawing carefully. The lst "D" in CADD stands for "Design", those darwings are the exact design. Besides dims think about how every door swings.

Cosmocat, i think some of these people are dealing on your KD way too hard. the way I read your original post was that the KD was the only person you have truly liked so far. You've talked to people who have used her and have positive things to say about her AND she is NKBA certified/liscensed. Perhaps you just haven't had enough meetings with her to get to the design that you truly love. I know I went through several months of designs and design changes before I came to the one I knew was IT!

In addition, with my basement kitchen that was ordered through a KD, I was NOT responsible for measurements, SHE was. I signed off on a design of my choice but she could not do the final measurements until the space was framed out. So my sink base ended being 35 1/2" instead of 36", for example.

But to answer your original question, you buy the cabinets through the KD whether they are acting independently or through a GC, the granite is a toss up, you could buy it thru KD or GC and the tile too is a toss up, whoever you feel more comforatble with.

If you don't like her contractor, ask her if she knows of any others, i bet she does. Forget about the guys who haven't got back to you, and definately forget about the bigheaded guy--he would be a nightmare. i do agree that one person needs to be in charge of the project YOU, KD or GC

I thought I would share with you some of my mistakes since I am in the middle of renovations.

If you think you might want to include something, get a price for it when you get the quote. If you do not, you may be charged for the change order plus an extra fee. For example, at the time I interviewed my contractor, I pointed out the venting problem for microwave and told him I do not want vent to go through cabinets, that it may be difficult to go above ceiling because of my low ceilings. Well, he gave me a price for the renovation, but when he had to go out to the roof to vent, yes, there was an extra charge plus a 15% fee.

Make sure installation of appliances is included in the cotnract, because if the kitchen is not ready at the time of delivery of appliances - guess what? - yes, an extra charge, plus 15%.

My GC asked whether molding is 1 piece or 2 because 2 would take more time and he would have to calculate cost. I called KD, said 1. Molding came. Yes, 2 pieces. Kaching - extra cost, plus 15%.

We were worried about the weight of a huge dumpster on our newly-paved driveway. Well, I noticed dumpster kept getting fuller, and no garbage was leaving my home. Guess what, GC is bringing garbage from other jobs (one from his own home) and dumping it into the dumpster on my property. Extra weight, after we told him of our concerns.

Now I understand this is a common practice that contractors seem to do to cut costs for some customers. I guess I wasn't that customer.

Lesson: Get everything in writing - EVERYTHING - from ALL parties. If you are uncertain about something, include it, and then make arrangements for deductions if you do not do something.

cosmocat, it's good that you have gotten such extensive responses to your plea for advice. The only thing that I would like to chime in on is your selection of the GC.

There is nothing worse than being a woman trying to manage a project like yours and having a cocky/arrogant contractor. I know for me, my days were blessed when I fired my framer who was belittling my opinion and putting others down. In the end, that blow-hard cost me money, as my new, competant, easy to work with guy had to come in to fix problems that "Mr. I'm-so-fantastic" had created by not listening to me.

My general experience has been that the more they toot their own horn, the faster you should run. The ones who are quietly confidant, who listen more than talk, who have a bit of a sense of humor and seem genuinely nice are ones that you will be grateful to have in your home each day.

Best of luck to you! Can't wait til you can show us your finished kitchen!

Sandy

Sandy,
That was PERFECT advice not just for kitchens but
for hiring people. And so true.
~boxerpups