I have a 20 year old house with metal clad insulated wood windows. The windows are fine except for sound. I live about 75 feet from a somewhat busy road. i am considering updating the windows in one of three ways and would appreciate any input.

1. Replacing the sashes with new Marvin sash pacs with dissimilar glass sashes including interior 1/4" laminated glass.

2. Replacing the sashes with new Marvin insert windows, again with dissimilar glass sashes including 1/4" laminated glass.

3. Leaving the old sashes in place and adding laminated monolithic storm windows.

Again, any input would be appreciated.

What is the goal you are realistically trying to achieve? If you are expecting a significant sound reduction, I'm afraid you might be disappointed in the cost vs. the actual result.

The goal is road noise reduction. So, if none of these options will work are there other alternative?

I'm not saying that it won't do anything, but you could spend a large amount of money and not notice a whole lot of difference. The problem is that windows are rigid surfaces that transmit sound, and have different physical properties than the rest of the wall. I'm not an expert in acoustics, but I am an engineer, and I had a situation somewhat like yours in a previous house. When I did a remodel and went from old, single pane windows to new, laminated thermal panes, there was not much noise reduction. I finally moved to a different house, and getting to a quieter location was a factor in my decision to move. I don't mean to discourage you, but I did want to share my experience before you invested a lot in something that might not do all you expect.

Thank you. I am looking at a spend around $5k by doing the install myself in any one of the 3 options. I am not expecting to be able to eliminate the sound, just hopefully reduce it.

sjohnson-

I couldn't tell from the wording of your original post: Do you have single pane windows right now or double pane?

The are double pane insulated glass sashes with plastic sash liners.

I kind of thought that, which is why replacing them with other windows that aren't that different probably won't change much sound-wise. The most budget conscious way I can think to approach this is to add a storm window in one location and see if you can notice any difference. You could test this by playing a radio outside at a particular volume, have someone inside, and have another person put the storm window in place while the person inside is listening.

Great idea. Thank you! I think I will try one monolithic, laminated storm panel and see how it goes. They are probably around 500.00 each. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

Yes, and spending $500 to try it out is better than spending $5000 to try it out. I'm not up on the latest storm window technology, but, if the window has some kind of seal at the perimeter, like foam, it might help in preventing some sound transmission from the glass and frame of the storm window to the rest of the window structure.

Good luck. I would be interested to hear about your result.

I added 1/4 inch laminated storm panels at less than $200 per opening and the results were significant. Also did new Marvin insulated inserts upstairs 1/4" laminated & 1/8" regular glass due to ease of cleaning and accessibility. Remarkable difference there as well. Thanks for your input.

sjohnson89,

May I ask where you got the 1/4 laminated storms? Or did you make them?

They are Larson brand, custom ordered at my community home improvement store

Oberon could you please help me to decide what's the best option here? I live quite close to an intersection so a local company has offered me two options: laminated glass windows 10+8mm 0.76 mm PVB or double insulated with both panes with laminated glass 5+4mm 0.76mm PVB - 9.8 mm air space - 5+4 0.76 mm PVB. Per vendor both have similar acoustic reduction properties but double insulated offers a thermal barrier (air space is too thin to increase noise reduction) but off course they are also more expensive. From the acoustic point of view, are these two options really similar? From your original post I do not want to spend more money and have a noticeable less noise reduction mainly for road traffic which is my main problem but if they are similar would be nice to have the insulation benefit. Thank you.

dgranadag,

I didn't see your question when you first posted it and likely it's too late to reply.

But in the event I am not too late, are you saying that the local window company was offering you monolithic laminated glass in a residential window using 10mm glass / .076 pvb / 8mm glass? If so, I am really curious exactly how big is this window and is it fixed or is it an operating window? Does the contractor have specific plans on how to install it?

Second option 5mm / .076pvb / 4mm plus airspace plus the same make up once again?

I have never seen any test results or field evidence that supports the hypothesis that differing the thickness of the lites in a laminated glass unit improves sound performance over two lites the same thickness. In an IGU, yes it does make a difference, but from everything that I have seen the jury is still out on the same option with laminated glass.

If I were to go with the second option I would probably take two lites at 3mm for one lami and two lites at 4mm for the second lami. Have a little bit more airspace and I believe (but no evidence t support it) that using different thickness in the two separate laminated units will have more effect on sound performance than will mixing the two sizes on each lami lite. Again that is totally my opinion, and I very well could be wrong, but that's how I would do it given the option.

I wish I would have caught your question a couple months ago, but generally I only visit the "windows" forum when on THS.

Hi Oberon. Yes I already changed them but thank you for your answer anyway. I opted for the double insulted because the thermal properties. They changed the whole thing including frames. Frames are made of PVC. Four persons where needed to lift the windows and put them in place. Windows are composed by fixed sections and movable sections. The bigger operating window is about 1 x 1.5 m but it is only a hooper type window. All others are .5 x 1.5 m and are tilt and turn type. I got the technical specs sheets, if you want to take a look I could email them to you (I already installed them but still I would like your opinion if you do not mind). Some pictures below.

Thank you.

Main Window

thanks dgranadag.

They look good. Are you in Europe?

Oberon,

No, Latin America. I live in Colombia but the manufacturer use German standards.

Techs specs below (they are in Spanish but most specs have the corresponding technical abbreviation).

Thank you!

Thanks,

I am wondering if the laminate came from Tecnoglas? They are headquartered in Columbia and are a good laminator from everything I have heard.

I think you made a good call on the dual pane vs single laminated pane option. I am still floored that a window company would use an 8mm/10mm make up for a residential window.

No problem reading the specs, even if in Spanish.

Visible light transmission is really good, and I notice there is no LowE coating.

Do you have concerns about overheating in summer?

Oberon,

No, I live in a cold city and there are no seasons here.

Thanks.

Hi Oberon,

First thanks for the really good info. We live in Brazil & it´s very common here to put insulfilm on car windows, so that people can´t see who is inside the car. Some offices also use this insulfilm, which is glued on the inside of the window & is some type of plastic film ??

My question is will this help with sound reduction if used with 02 glass panes of say 6mm & 4mm & an IGU of 1,2cm ??

It´s certainly cheaper than laminated glass.

Many thanks........Peter

Hi Oberon et al,

i've been through the this thread, and already gleaned a lot of useful info. I've had to move back to my old apartment in, and I'm finding the traffic noise is driving me crazy - my bedrooms and living room face a busy road just one level above the street, and only a few metres to the side (max 20 metres). I am about to contract a company here (Anglian Home Improvements), and thinking of swapping out my current windows for their "sound reducing windows", comprising 6.4mm laminated glass, an 18mm gap and 4mm plain glass. Additionally, I intend to install secondary double glazed windows across a 150mm gap to further enhance insulation. I'm thinking of using just regular glass for this secondary glazing, butt will consider a replication of the primary windows if of added benefit . They promise a tight fit and good installation. Should I expect to be able to achieve normally quiet rooms, or might this be a waste of time and money?

Thanks - Lekan

You will get an improvement, but it will be pricey, and it will not result in a "normally quiet room." If you are sensitive to sound -- like I am -- you will continue to listen for it and probably be annoyed by it even though it will be muted.

Thanks Kudzu9...exactly what I suspect. I am sensitive to sound...

Hi Lekan,

I live in a busy intersection and decided to install sound reducing windows 5.4 laminated glass (0.75 acoustic PVB), 9.5mm air gap and another 5.4 laminated glass same specification. It helped me but as kudzu9 said I am too sensitive to sound so I still have to use earplugs. I already had a company doing acoustic measurements and the results are just a little above the comfort noise curve NC-30 in two frequency bands. So getting a quite room as I probably would like seems to be very expensive and probably not worthy. Alternatives suggested by the acoustic measurements company were installing a second double glazed window 500 mm apart or fill the air gap with more glass mass (meaning install laminated glass with a total thickness of 30 mm replacing the current ones) but the main issue with this last option is the weight put on the actual walls and for the other option I need to literally build a new wall so by now I am thinking to continue using earplugs....lol

Hi dgranadag,

Did the acoustic measurement company swear by the secondary glazing method, or is this all again in the hope that you'd find some comfort after trying that...is noise isolation via windows a myth at the end of the day? :)

Supposedly from they report the secondary glazing should reduce an additional 3 db getting the noise inside the room below the NC-30 curve but comfort is a term to wide...my girlfriend sleeps even during the rush hours without issues so I believe at the end of the day it still in the hope that I will get some confort. I would not say is a myth because I have worked in recording studios but the windows and solutions used there are way too expensive.

One other issue is that, while the windows are the biggest transmitters of noise, you can still get sound transmission through the walls even if you do everything you can with the windows, especially if the walls are not well insulated.

• Is paying $4700 too much for Marvin laminated Windows to replace my 3 bedroom windows in a Midwest city? I have an ear/sound pain condition and have 20-year-old cheap vinyl windows. Or should I just go with the Marvin double pane for $3000?

Laminated glass isn't cheap and neither is Marvin. Nothing outlandish about what numbers you are getting in my book. You can't put a price on a quiet bedroom or being able to get some sleep.

Can laminated glass be replaced into existing frames? Is there a weight concern?

Probably not a weight concern. But it depends on what the existing frame construction is. What are you trying to accomplish?

Need some noise reduction. Frames are vinyl.

A solid barrier like a wooden privacy fence, strategically placed, can block a fair amount of sound from outdoor sources. A good landscape designer/architect should be able to advise on placement, size, construction, etc.

Oberon, thanks for your great expertise on this thread. Wondering if you could assist with my situation:

I live in a condo in Canada that is right next to a busy highway and would like to drown out the noise by having interior windows installed. I'm debating between acrylic magnetic panels (cheaper) or laminated glass (more expensive).

My biggest desire is to reduce the highway noise. Is laminated glass much more soundproof than acrylic (assuming they are both installed at the same distance from my original windows, say 3" distance)? The laminated glass solution is more than double the price, but if it provides better soundproofing, I will go for it.

Thanks for any help!

HU-687558955

Although laminated glass is significantly better than acrylic in sound blocking performance in a stand-alone application, in your situation the most important consideration is the air gap formed between the existing window and the installed panel, not which panel option that you choose.

The laminated glass option is going to have better performance numbers than the acrylic, but the acrylic may be adequate with the wide airspace.

Thank you Oberon, I very much appreciate your quick and concise thoughts!

You're welcome...

Curious what are they using for the laminated glass option?

Not exactly sure. Do you mean thickness or type of glass, etc? I looked through their website but didn't seem to be that much info on the laminated glass itself: https://bquiet.ca/

After describing my situation to the rep on the phone, I asked him for a realistic expectation - he claimed a 60-70% sound reduction - if he's right, I will call that a success.

Hello,

Can anyone give me some advice? My house was close to a highway and there is noise problem in my house. My house window comes from ply gem and Builder use the cheapest window glass. Its STC is only 24 for double pane low E glass... I can just get the laminated glass with STC 34 from Ply Gem for the same window series and the price is around $100 per window glass. So improve STC from 24 to 34 will make a big difference? All my windows are single hung windows so cost of per window is $200 plus $60/per window for the labor. But I don't know whether that will make a big difference or not...

Don't get your hopes up for going from noisy to significantly quieter. As the link below explains in some detail: "The largest problem with relying on an STC number alone is that STC only considers frequencies down to 125 Hz. This can be misleading because most sound isolation complaints are from noise sources that are below 125 Hz. Examples of noise sources below 125 H [include]

-Traffic noise from airplanes, trucks, and heavy equipment operation...."

Here is the link: Understanding STC

Hi HU-687558955. I'm also in Canada and debating between the acrylic (magnetite) and laminated glass inserts (bquiet) and wondered what you choose and the results.

The laminated glass option is going to give you significantly better sound reduction performance than the acrylic, but the width of the airspace between the original window and the insert is also very important.

You really want that space to be at least 2" and anything wider than that is even better.

Thanks for the input oberon476. The window sill space is over 3" - so that's good. The laminated glass is double the cost, but I guess if significantly better sound reduction than it might be worth it.

The salesperson for the acrylic said it would probably only reduce about 3 decibels which doesn't seem like very much.

Sue, dropping 10dB is considered to be cutting sound volume in half, so while 3dB would be noticeable, you can do better.

As I commented on in an earlier post, the acrylic might be acceptable if installed to create a wider space because the width of the airspace will improve performance over whatever material is used to create it, with 2" being good and 3-4" even better.

If people are concerned about cost, I would suggest trying the acrylic first to see how well it works, but that said I would probably suggest the laminated glass in your case because I think you will be very pleased with the result.

How large is the opening that you want to cover, and how many windows? And how much are they asking for the laminated glass?

Yeah 3db doesn't seem like it would be that noticeable.

Both the acrylic and laminated glass are quite pricey, so an investment especially if I do multiple windows.

The two windows I mainly wanted to do are somewhat facing the busy road. They are on two different floors - one living/dining room and one in the main bedroom - and are both about 68" x 35". The laminated glass (.06 acoustical laminate glass) estimate was $1900 CAD for one window and installation. The bedroom has two smaller windows that are on an adjacent wall not facing the road. The living/dining room has four smaller windows that are on an adjacent wall not facing the road. In addition to road sounds, there are also occasionally noise from planes - I'm fairly far from the airport but still I guess along a flight path.

I'm thinking of getting the laminated glass for the main window in the living room since its a lower floor and the acrylic insert for the main window in the bedroom. Then evaluate for the other windows. The local acrylic option uses a magnetic frame that would also block a couple of the smaller windows from opening, so for those I might do the Indow inserts from the US which uses silicone tubing instead but would get pricer than the local option with shipping and exchange rate.

How are they planning to mount the laminated glass in the opening? From what I read it will be a more or less permanent mount?

One potential advantage (but also potential acoustical disadvantage) of the plastic insert is that it's much lighter than the laminated glass so it can be relatively easy to remove from the opening if necessary, whereas the laminated glass is going to be heavy. A laminated insert using 3mm glass for both lites will be over 50lbs at the size window that you describe, and while laminated glass can be very safe when handling, it's still a chore if you have to remove it from the opening for any reason. But acoustically that weight (density) is to your advantage.

The .06 acoustical laminate glass means that they are using a 1.52mm thick PVB interlayer in the laminated glass. Generically .030" or .76mm interlayer is considered safety, .060" or 1.52mm is considered security, and .090" or 2.28mm is considered to be impact resistant, or the thickness generally used for hurricane impact glass. Adding additional thickness also adds some acoustical advantage as well, roughly 1 to 2 dB advantage for every additional .76mm thickness.

I would suggest that if you are going to be looking at comparing laminated glass to acrylic, you might consider using the laminated glass in your bedroom.

Odedeyio what did you end up doing? I'm in the same boat.