It looks to me that the way you have the dw oriented in the second plan, when open, it would be more in the way of the in-law entrance than in the first plan.

Couldn't you just put the dw next to the sink as you show in plan 1? And leave the inlaw doorway 2 ft north of the face of the sink cabinet so the walkway is always clear. I would just end the stove counter at the jog in the wall and not try to connect the 2 areas with an angle.

Other comments: I don't know that you have room for seating on the ends of the island, and I wonder where you will store your dishes. Could you, in this designing process for that corner, inset something against the side of the fridge that faces the cleanup areaa in which to store dishes? I can't remember...Were you against having a prep sink?

I don't know why the photos are so deceiving. There is 5 feet from the center of the angled DW to the corner of the frig. Regardless, it's not the optimal layout.

Is this what you mean?

I will have a prep sink. I just forget to put it back in when I am playing around with island design. Again, the pic is deceiving because I think 53" is plenty of room (right?). It looks like more space between island and stove, but that's only 46". I also forgot to move the door closer to the frig in this rendering, but you get the idea.

The good thing about an off center sink is that I won't stare right at the stile(?) in the middle of the window. But when I imagine myself washing dishes, it seems like there won't be enough counter space. Keep in mind that right now I don't have a dishwasher and there are always dishes on the counter. I think that is clouding my judgement just a bit (okay, quite a bit!).

I was planning dish drawers in the island, but I am not again something on the end of the frig if you think island is too far away.
Thanks so much for the feedback.

OT, anyone else find those automatic links annoying!?!

I like your first plan.
Since you can move the sink wall out more if you want, maybe you can install a skylight there too. That would let in alot of light. Moving it out another 12" or so to facilitate a skylight may be worth it?
Good luck

What's behind the range?
Where are the dishes going to be stored?
Are there in-laws? Do they have physical issues?
Where the ref is, is the ref surround structural?

That is close to what I meant, but with the sink wall back a bit more, so you have 2 ft between the front of the sink cabs and the doorway, and some space between doorway and fridge, too. I imagined the front of the sink cabs lining up with the back of the stove cabs...or even a little behind that. Partly depends on if that wall isn't in yet, so can go anywhere, or how much trouble it is to move.

SWSpitfire. We have a flat foam roof and can put a skylight anywhere. We already discussed maybe putting one over the aisle between the island and cooktop. I still felt it was important to get as much light through the window as possible.

Bmore, the media room is behind the range. Dishes were going to be stored in drawers in the island. Yes, there is my mother now and then my in-laws probably within 5 years. The frig surround is not completely structural. The load bearing walls are the cooktop wall and the wall with the door to the suite starting at about that door then going south. Basically, the new sink wall touches two bearing walls. The sink window looks out to what is now the walkway to the front door. We are relocating the front of the house to the dining room side with new foyer "north" of the dining roon.

Rhome, I was finally able to get a floorplan on photobucket that is big enough. Isn't the DW too far from the island this way?

I would like to keep the DR side of the kitchen as is, but the cooktop and left side are flexible. The DR side will be a major walkway. The sink can even go by the frig, although you would see it when you enter the great room from the foyer. So I am open to suggestions.

Thanks again everyone.

I would want to move the sink area a foot back, so that it doesn't overlap the stove run, but is stopped at each end in its own alcove. I think it would look more intentional.

I think the first plan has a better placement of DW and sink. I do think yuo should worry about the clearance for someone walking past while the DW door is open. We currently have a bit of a traffic jam walking through one doorway when the DW door is open and it is a pain. Maybe you could get dishwasher drawers which don't stick out so far.
Also I would definitely not plan to put barstools on the ends of the island. Think about how much space they'll take up if someone is sitting there and you want to stand in front of the fridge or the oven with the door open. The usual recommendation is a minimum of 4 feet from one countertop to an island, but realistically you'll need more if you want to open a door and still be able to get by, and you won't have 4 feet at all if someone is sitting in those seats.
Also those ends of the island function as the 'landing space' for taking things out of the fridge and the oven so you'll want those spots to be clear. I'd be content with the stools only on the other side of the island and out of the work triangle.

DW won't be in the way even with a wheelchair. I definitely checked that already.

If I eliminate the seating on the ends of the island, I can make the island longer and add one more seat on the radius. I could also just get backless stools that tuck all the way under. But what will happen is people are going to stand on the ends anyway, so I may as well accomodate them with a stool. I'll think on this one.

So far that is two votes for the first sink layout. Rhome410, I love the look of a clean-up "niche", but at the same time, I like the idea of being able to slide pots and pans over to the sink quickly with the countertop connected. I have some time to decide and I'll see what DH thinks.

Thanks!

Well, my idea was a 'fix' of plan 2 to be more like plan 1, and maybe have the added benefit of gaining some space around that doorway. Of the original 2, I definitely prefer plan 1....So we're all kind of on the same wavelength. :-) As I said before, I wouldn't consider it over plan 1 if the wall is not being moved or built...if it's extra hassle.

You can get rid of the automatic ad popups if you hit the "important announcement" about advertising at the top of the front page of the forum, follow that link to a tab where you can opt out. I did this when it first appeared and haven't seen a single popup since.

I agree that backless stools are a better option, but I still would not encourage people to sit on those ends. If people stand there they can easily step out of the way and will kind of expect to have to move if they are standing. But if you put stools there you are inviting people to be in the way and it will take them longer to move out of the way and then you'll have to move the stool as well.
But then I am opposed to island seating in general, especially if there is other seating right next to the kitchen - I don't see the point of lots of different places to sit. I'd rather have more actual workspace because I like to cook and hate people being in the way. I guess I really don't see the kitchen as a place to socialize in, but as a place to cook in. But if it is a social space for you, then the stools will suit your purposes better.

You need to check the little hallway for wheelchairs. It doesn't have the 5 foot radius to turn the chair. I think it would if you made the doorway from the kitchen larger.

The walkway with ?counter? into the dining room needs to be a bit wider-like 6-12"? And you're expecting they will never go into the game room? That's entirely possible, I guess.

I think I'm tempted to futz around and see what the world is like with the cleanup are where the ovens are.

The other thing to say is about that window - even tho you'll hate me. The location of the inlaw suite and the game room mean its unlikely you'll get any meaningful light and certainly not a view from 99% of the kitchen. It will point into a narrow corridor between two longer build extensions. All angled views will be of siding.

My thinking is wondering about moving the pantry into that area,open the aisle from the front of the house wider- so the vista ran all the way back. Sink the ref into the former pantry, make a broom closet or a telephone booth behind it. If there is a way to slope the roof or make the game room a step or two down, a wonder if you could do something like eyebrow windows or transoms above the range?

The other thing to say is about that window - even tho you'll hate me. The location of the inlaw suite and the game room mean its unlikely you'll get any meaningful light and certainly not a view from 99% of the kitchen. It will point into a narrow corridor between two longer build extensions. All angled views will be of siding.

Bmore!!! You are so, so right! It's been bothering my, but I just didn't want to admit it. I am going to take that wall all the way out. I can absolutely put some transoms over the cooktop and a skylight.

I am absolutely too exhausted to post a plan right now, but I will be working on it. My mom is spending her first weekend here after her heart attack 3 weeks ago. I have spent the last four days cleaning out, painting, etc. to get her space ready. Not sure when I'll post back, but I am excited about the new possibilities!

Donald, I am still unresolved about the stools on the ends. We do have the type of house where everyone gathers in the kitchen whether there is seating or not.

Thanks again!!

So, here is an almost blank floorplan if anyone would like to help. The red walls are fair game as far as doorways, although they are load bearing. I also forgot to mark red all the walls in the in-law suite, including the bathroom. However, the bathroom itself needs to stay basically in that location.

I'd like to keep cooktop and sink away from dining room wall since that will be a major walkway from backyard to game room. I do want double ovens or a range and then another single; that doesn't matter. I am warming up to the idea of the sink and DW in the island, although it's not my first choice.

My main goals here are: to get access to kitchen from suite smoothly, to keep traffic to left side of kitchen, and to have a nice large island, a walk-in pantry, and a walk-in closet for suite.

Thanks for your help.

Is it still possible to reverse game room and mudroom - then combine a perhaps shortened mudroom with the red zone?

Alpha kitten goes roar!
Otherwise known as "bump"

Actually the mudroom can change, although that will be less money we have to put into the kitchen. I'd be glad to see your ideas though.

This isn't done - more like a doodle, but its sorta-kinda what I was thinking...
{{!gwi}}

Oooh! I like it! However, after some investigating, we found the ceiling height in the mudroom is too short to blend with the game room. However, you have given me a great jumping off point and I have come up with this. Is 7 feet for a cleanup area adequate?

Just to clarify -- with record rainfall, this is the first year we have ever really needed a mudroom in Phoenix. Most of the time it's a dust room. This will basically be a place for all our sports and equestrian equipment as well as shoes and coats. We don't like using the garage or barn for some things because they get way too dusty. It's more like one big closet rather than a place we must enter first the way other people do in wetter climates.

Thanks, Bmore!

Is it possible to move the entrance to the game room to the hall also? Or at least add another doorway - so they aren't continually crossing through the prep/cooking area for beer and soda?

Yes, I planned an entrance from the pantry hall, but somehow forgot to add it. There will be a frig in the mudroom, but we do still need that second entrance. It will be right below the wall of the pantry.