Is there a chance of extending the sink run toward the dinette area? If there was more room between the sink and stove it wouldn't be too bad, but this way, you have very little counter where you'd need it most.

Here are the things that initially confuse me. You say multi family use yet you only have a 4 burner range. Two separate top freezer frig/freezers? How far is the clearance between the island and sink? Somehow, your islands placement does not seem as conducive to prep work as it should be. Where do you plan dish storage? Do you need a 2nd DW since there are multi families? Can you tell us a little more about your home and who will be cooking. That will help.

It's hard to tell without knowing how this kitchen gets used and what's beyond the doors.

I wonder if its possible to move the door ways? Move the waterworks?

I wonder about the choice to the increase ref space at the expense of pantry space (and the nearly empty pantry).
Is the eat-in space necessary or is generally another space used? Like do multiple families use the kitchen in turn, but then move the prepared foods to a private space?
Do the families each bring their own cookware or dishes?

I wonder if an otr mw is the best choice for a multi-use kitchen? If consolidating cleanup and range and island in the same "one butt" space is a good thing?

In this layout the oven door and dw doors control access to the water. Someone using water will have to move out of the way of someone who wants something from the base cabinets in the islandette. I think, but am not sure, you end up with less prep space than in the current layout.

Is this a vacation house?

Are the two refrigerators shown actually a separate fridge and freezer?

I see two microwaves? Is one actually a convection oven?

I second the idea of two dishwashers...things in use could constantly cycle.

When you say cooking is important...by how many people at the same time?

The place between the refrigerators will never be used for prep with the only sink so far away. It will end up as set down space for a lot of things. If you have a lot of countertop appliances maybe this is ok, I am not sure how the kitchen gets used.

That small island seems more in the way than anything else. The kitchen may be a little tight for one.

From a stylistic standpoint although the oak strip door is very 80s a slab door is still very much in keeping with the house in general.

This kitchen is very small for multi-family use. Tight aisles, little storage, little workspace, limited/shared landing space, etc. Do you have a separate pantry elsewhere?

As others have asked, does everyone work in it at once?

How does it function as a multi-family kitchen now? What are the things that work? Don't work?

Is the seating area off the kitchen in the pics the only dining area? I only see 4 chairs... If you could expand into the table area you would dramatically increase your options and make it a true multi-cook kitchen.

Do you have a layout (can be hand-drawn) of how the kitchen fits in with the rest of the first floor? This is useful for a traffic flow analysis as well as where things would "fit" best.

It looks like the table area looks out over the beach (reflection of beach in windows)...is that the case? Is it right on the beach?

I am going to make a detailed list and address of the questions everyone raised this evening. You're all great!
Thanks

I am definitely no expert when it comes to layout. But I just had to tell you that you've come to the right place for help. These people rock!

I love this place. I have used this as an "expert forum" and have used it extensively while remodeling our own home and projects. I am very grateful for and impressed with the level of interest and expertise that youre showing in the problem.Based on this I will give you broader understanding how it works.

Home has been in my family for 50+ years. It is shared and owned by 7 siblings (with spouses, children). We are now in our 50s and 60s with children and grandchildren, etc. Collectively there are 59 people in immediate family. The ages are from newborn children, seventeen children under age of 15, and then on up to 92 years of age. The home is the physical place that keeps us all together. There has been no changes or upgrades to the building over the last 25 years since fire destroyed home. We are now willing to tackle some dramatic changes. The home is used extensively four months of the year. Three families, sometimes more, may be using the house at one time. Two families are in the main house and one family in guest house (not shown.) The guest house will be subject to another posting - we are doing a complete teardown and rebuild this fall 2009.

So we have a second kitchen in the guest house and a fairly large outdoor grill for grilling.

Kitchen problems:

During the week there may be one or two cooks in the kitchen along with family popping in and out for breakfast, lunch, drinks, etcetera. We commute back and forth to work from this home and our children still maintain their activities. Dinner time could be one family during the week. On the weekends it is a free for all. There could be as many as 4 or 5 (unwanted) cooks bumping in to each other in kitchen. My sister-in-laws are excellent cooks. They range from home made pizzas to gourmet cooks. All family members are free to use the beach, main house and on Sundays everyone is welcome (my big fat Italian family).

The kitchen orientation has the cooking food prep area to the back of the kitchen or the north side of the kitchen.
The south side of kitchen faces the lake.
The east side of the kitchen is an exterior wall and
west side butts against staircase and is limited.
seating area with a beautiful view of the lake opposite.
There is a formal large dining room off to the right facing the lake where most of heavy eating is done. However, sticky fingers, younger kids are relegated to kitchen area so we need some type of low maintenance eating area in the kitchen along with quick breakfasts by family residing there in the week.

The new kitchen will accommodate or have

5 burner 36" range and oven combination w ventilation
2 refrigerators - one mostly for beverages and trays casseroles, etcetera
1 microwave
1 dishwaser (love to have 3) but very limited space
Toaster oven
Toaster
Coffee prep area

I will try to post pictures of what currently exists in the side entrance laundry area.

The men and few family members insist the current seating w minimum of four people with as many as six if possible. Because of the small kitchen we feel the range is either on north wall or the east wall allowing ventilation to exterior. The home is not air conditioned.

Overall, the kitchen is 17.5 feet North to South, 13.5 feet east to west.

The pantry in the photographs with the double doors which will be removed is approximately 45" and can be totally removed and it would blend into the formal dining area (not shown)
The window on south wall facing the lake/beach, and is 6 feet wide.
The window on the east wall over the existing sink is approximately 87" in length. Which leaves 15" from north wall to edge of window. Very limiting factor.

We are stumped how to get useful functional island that can accomodate seating in such a narrow kitchen. The width of the kitchen does not really allow for useful functioning island with circulation around it
The pantry area to the north of the kitchen is approximately 36" square. Currently that is where one of the fridges sits.

Structurally the exterior walls of building cannot be moved. They are heavy poured concrete w stone veneer. Approximately 85" of west wall running from north to south (where range is currently)

Is there a chance of extending the sink run toward the dinette area? Yes.

How far is the is clearance between the island and the sink? Proposed island is 36"

Where do you plan dish storage? (Paper plates lol). This is a problem that we have to work out. The island in proposed layout was temporary unrefined thought.

Is it possible to move the doorways?
It is not possible to change access to room to west nor change access from the north but both openings can be increased in size. Obviously not less than 36".

Is it possible to move waterworks? Yes can be moved anywhere in the kitchen.

I wonder about the choice to increase fridge space at the expense of pantry space.
The home is empty during winter months.
There are currently 2 refridgerators in the kitchen. One is located what we referred to and have not shown what we call a small pantry area along with side entrance on the north wall (not shown)
The idea is to remove fridge from small pantry area and make the area an area recycling bottles, beverages, garbage, laundry, mudroom entrance area on the north side of the house. (Not photographed)

By the way, if somebody can recommend good software program, wed lay the whole house to help solve the problem.

During parties food is buffet style on the tiny u-shaped island. Usually a line out the door to dining room, cleanup which as mentioned can only have one person at sink, and usually delays dessert and coffee prep.
We keep dishes bake ware and utensils up there. If family has a preference for a certain utensil or coffee pot they can bring it up.

I wonder if an otr mw is the best choice for a multi-use kitchen? If consolidating cleanup and range and island in the same "one butt" space is a good thing?
In this

In this layout the oven door and dw doors control access to the water. Someone using water will have to move out of the way of someone who wants something from the base cabinets in the islandette. I think, but am not sure, you end up with less prep space than in the current layout.

This is also a current problem - very limiting.

Is this a vacation house? Yes.
Are the two refrigerators shown actually a separate fridge and freezer?
They were both refridgerators - freezer in other house.
I see two microwaves? Is one actually a convection oven?
That is a mistake by the kitchen designer. We only want one microwave oven.

When you say cooking is important...by how many people at the same time? Four to five.

The place between the refrigerators will never be used for prep with the only sink so far away. Thats very true. I was hoping to have a drink area/coffee prep, wine glasses, regular glasses, cups, saucers, etcetera on this wall.

If you have a lot of countertop appliances maybe this is ok, I am not sure how the kitchen gets used.
Additional appliances not shown are : Toaster oven, coffee pots,
This kitchen is very small for multi-family use. Tight aisles, little storage, little workspace, limited/shared landing space, etc. Do you have a separate pantry elsewhere?
There is a small space (not shown) with a side entrance door, another fridge, a utility sink, washer and dryer which we would like to use as storage for paper plates, paper goods, beverages, recycling (a lot in a small space)

As others have asked, does everyone work in it at once? We also have a guest cottage - we use that kitchen along with an outdoor grill. Family members also prepare trays, dishes at home and bring up with them. Never enough room in the fridge to accommodate casseroles, trays, etcetera. Sister in law prepares home made pizza up there.

How does it function as a multi-family kitchen now? What are the things that work? Don't work? I have tried to get feedback - the people that dont cook dont care. The men think it is important to keep view out the window and seating area. (ugh). They do not want to sit on stools. As I said theyre not cooking and preparing though.

Is the seating area off the kitchen in the pics the only dining area? I only see 4 chairs.
If you could expand into the table area you would dramatically increase your options and make it a true multi-cook kitchen. I agree with you. I envisioned putting the stove on this wall and putting a very narrow island down the middle of the room with chairs/stools that could be pushed underneath. Like a cozy up bar, etcetera. I thought the two fridges would have been great centered on the current pantry wall, along with additional small prep sink.
possibly under. We are very open using that exterior wall.

Do you have a layout (can be hand-drawn) of how the kitchen fits in with the rest of the first floor? This is useful for a traffic flow analysis as well as where things would "fit" best. I do have a layout which I will post tomorrow. Husband left it in the office.

It looks like the table area looks out over the beach (reflection of beach in windows)...is that the case? Is it right on the beach? Yes, it does look out over beach and it is right on the water. Heres an outside partial shot. I wish I knew how to write on pics to point out which windows are where. But this is the general idea.

Before the beginning of season, the existing pantry is filled with paper goods, basic canned goods, snacks, beverages and miscellaneous dry goods.

Thanks!

Many people on this forum use BH&G software. I believe they have a couple of levels ($$) available. They are only PC compatible. Since I have a MAC I'm stuck with just drawing 2D iterations with Powerpoint. I found Google Sketchup very difficult to use.

It's really hard to give advice without seeing a complete layout. Could you draw on graph paper (complete with dimensions/measurements) your layout and the orientation to other rooms?

What a fantastic house... what a fantastic project... I can't wait to follow this. It's going to be amazing.

House facing lake

front of lakehouse - doors are living room w cathedral ceiling

Side of house windows shown are kitchen
House in rear is guest house

Side entrance

View of house from driveway

What an interesting challenge with so many people using the kitchen and all of the different age groups.

I am on my way to bed, but just at first glance and without a lot of thought... the island in the drawing seems like it will cause more problems that it will solve. Seems like it will be sort of in the way without giving a lot back.

I am wondering with all of those cooks if you could separate the space into a primary cooking area and an ancilary cooking area, with the primary having the range a fridge, sink, DW, etc. and the secondary having an extra fridge, an extra DW, extra MW and pantry area. Perhaps the primary is more of a galley kitchen (vs. the L with island) and the secondary occupies the space with the two fridges are shown.

Just a thought. obviously would require working out a lot of details, but the idea would be to capatalize more on the length of the room and really ramp up the function while eliminating all the pathways around the island.

Perhaps one of the refrigerators can be moved further out of the work triangle if it is for drinks and storage. That way it can be accessed by the people who have nothing to do with prep (the guys in the chairs)

A separate wall oven and microwave stack may work in its place. I usually like a conventional range but getting some of the cooking elsewhere is good for multiple cooks. The area in between could be used for set down, and small appliances.

If you could fit two dishwashers,somehow, heavily used items like glasses would cycle from the clean to the dirty and essentially be stored in the dishwasher...everyone has to be on the same page about how this works so you don't mix clean and dirty all the time.

I'm going to be blunt, so please don't take offense, but you say...
The men and few family members insist the current seating w minimum of four people with as many as six if possible...

Do these "men" and "few family members" do the cooking or even cleaning up? I think you need to address the kitchen size & functionality if you truly intend to make this kitchen a multi-cook kitchen. Some compromises will have to be made...and since it will be heavily used for cooking most of those should NOT be kitchen/cooking compromises.

I'm sure we can help you create an eating space to accommodate 4 to 6, but it probably won't be the same as you have now and since you have a separate DR I would make creating a functional kitchen a priority.

In the end, though, it is your kitchen. So while we'll work with you to try to accomplish all your goals, the final decisions will be yours.

BTW...can you get the others who will be doing the actual cooking to back you up on creating a functional kitchen? If all fails, I'm thinking of Lysistrata & the Peloponnesian War... :-O [just kidding! but it was a fleeting thought!]

Missed the statement that the men don't cook...

How far off the floor is the south window? Is it possible to raise it to allow seating in front of it (I'm thinking banquette)?

Ok, I think I got where the kitchen is. The dining room is west? The west side has a door, but we don't know where it is! The north side has the door shown on the drawing into the mudroom.

Are you sure you want a 36" range? Would it make more sense to have a 30" electric range and then have another 12" or 15" wide two-top somewhere else? Provides for 3 people stirring the pot :)

Maybe the two-top could be induction? Fast boiling without heat buildup? Or do multiple cooktops? Actually, maybe do linear line-up with 24" hoods. Two different kinds of ovens somewhere - regular/convection and micro/browing?

Just whining. I really don't like the bobbing and weaving that comes from using an otr micro with 4 active cooks. They are a little high to be safe for putting things in and taking them out when the range is crowded. Over by the refs (if they stay there) is a much better position for the micro. The hood part doesn't tend to be very powerful and at 36" wide, you have very few to choose from and they're kind pricey. They need to be too close to the cooking surface for me - only 18" up. Whine, whine whine.

More seriously, there don't seem to be any speed ovens that can install otr in 36" widths.

I think, but am not sure, that coffee bar w/o water = fail. Just because... how many pots do you guys make in the mornings?

Can you move that "jog" down to the DR doorway? Maybe remove it completely and just have a 36" or 42" doorway b/w the current table area & DR? You'll gain another 18" to 21" on that wall.

What is the size of that jog, btw?

How big is that doorway that we only see part of in the south west corner?