I can only answer a few of your questions. We had frameless cabinets for the 6 years we lived in Germany and then for the first 15 years we lived in our current house. We never had a problem with edges. Our cabinets were mid-range in quality/price and we are hard on a kitchen. They wore like iron, really. The only reason we installed framed cabs in our new reno was aesthetic. I do miss the added space in the drawers we had with frameless.

We needed fillers where ever there was a run between two walls because none of our walls are square (old house).

We had a wall oven installed in a base cabinet and we didn't have any kind of a frame. This could have been because the cabinet was attached to the wall and therefore more sturdy.

Frameless cabinets do not have a face frame. Therefore, all of a cabinets interior is available for use. Space is not lost between cabinets, doors, or in drawer stacks. There is no center stile on a double door cabinet to reach around!

Cheril27, What a nifty wall cab slot where a filler might be needed! Do you have more pix? Many thanks for sharing your experiences.

Greencleaning, thanks for responding so quickly.

I forgot to ask if more dust got into the cabinets than in framed cabs. Both drawers and doors.

I don't know if I will be much help, but we have 20-25 yr old frameless cabs (you know, the slab front white melamine ones) and there is no trouble at all with the edges after all this time. (Well, except that some of them are a little yellowed by now, being laminate.) We don't get dust in our cabs. I don't know if the hinges they use now are the same kind, but our hinges allow the doors to open a little over 90 degrees (I checked) -- no problems with that either. I had never given framed vs frameless cabs a thought before I found this forum, but if we ever redo the kitchen I will most likely stick with frameless (now that I know there is a difference, lol).

My frameless cabinets are solid wood doors, drawer fronts and ends and no edge issue on the interiors. I really needed to maximize the space in our kitchen since I couldn't change it. It really did give me better use of my space (lots of drawers too -- which ere HUGE space killers in the old kitchen).

Just remember that the hinges will lose you some space across the front edge, although the space is there behind the hinge within the cab. This means that pull-out shelves can't be as wide as the cab opening. Doesn't make sense until you go look at some up close. They are a good innovation.

Ours stay closed just fine. There is a fine open space between pairs of doors at front of cab.

Northcarolina and lascatx,
Thanks for your comments. It's good to know that the workmanship in the US for frameless is good. There is next to no call for frameless in this area, so your experiences are appreciated.

florantha,
Thanks for bringing up the pull-out shelves issue. I was debating using them for an appliance pantry, but now I don't think it's a good idea since space would be lost by the shelf sides and the hinges. There's no room for a wider pantry/cab to allow for the loss of space.

Canishel...remember that Florantha is talking about roll out tray shelves (ROTS), not pullouts attached to doors or drawers. Neither drawers nor pullouts have hinges.

For all styles of cabinets, you will always lose a little space with drawers and pullouts b/c of the need for the drawer or pullout "box" to clear the cabinet sides and, in the case of drawers, for drawer glides (bottom or side mount). However, you gain far more in accessibility of the contents than you lose space.

Yes, frameless will require more filler than framed, especially more than partial overlay or inset cabinets. But, as you saw in Cheri127's pic, there are creative ways to minimize lost space.

Note that there are also "filler pullouts" that can be installed b/w cabinets and b/w walls & cabinets. Since they're attached to the adjacent cabinets or wall, there's no space lost due to cabinet walls.

For base cabinets, filler pullouts are available in 3", 6", and 9" widths. For upper cabinets, they're available in 3" and 6" widths in 36", 39", and 42" heights. For tall/pantry cabinets, they're available in 6" widths and 39" and 45" heights.

In your case, I would suggest using filler pullouts instead of cabinets in any situation you can b/c you don't lose that cabinet wall space. (I.e., don't get a 6" or 9" cabinet, get a 6" or 9" filler pullout!)

One note...filler pullouts must be installed at cabinet install time. They cannot be retro-fitted. (Although, you might be able to retro-fit a 9"...depending on your hand and tool size).

Base Filler Pullouts: Available in 3", 6", and 9" widths.
http://www.rev-a-shelf.com/Common/ProductClassification.aspx?class=Sink%20&family=Wood%20Accessories&category=Filler%20Pull-Outs%20-%20Base

Upper Cab Filler Pullouts: Available in 3" and 6" widths in 36", 39", and 42" heights
http://www.rev-a-shelf.com/Common/ProductClassification.aspx?class=Wall%20Accessories&family=Wood%20Accessories&category=Filler%20Pull-Outs%20-%20Wall

Tall/Pantry Filler Pullouts: Available in 6" widths and in 39" and 45" heights that can be used alone or in conjunction with others to meet your 84", 90", or 96" total height requirements
http://www.rev-a-shelf.com/Common/ProductClassification.aspx?class=Tall/Pantry%20Acc.&family=Wood%20Accessories&category=Filler%20Pull-Outs%20-%20Tall

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread: Rev-A-Shelf Spice Racks for Fillers -- Have you seen these!!!!

I don't have many pictures of our old kitchen. That nifty cabinet with the cutting boards was the result of a 5" measuring error on the part of the KD. One of those mistakes that actually makes things better. I LOVED having my cutting boards easily accessible and did most of my prep on that side of the stove (odd, I know, since it was far from the sink but I used the low counter in the peninsula all of the time). I still kind of miss my old kitchen but I needed a mudroom and a large refrigerator, hence the renovation. Plus, I put this one in as soon as we go back from Germany without thinking that it really didn't fit in with the style of the house. The best part about it was that all the stuff the kids needed was on the non-work side of the peninsula so they were never near the range.

Definitely consider drawers for your appliance pantry. In fact consider all drawers if you can afford it. The beauty of frameless cabinets is the how much more drawer space you get. The 14" tall drawer in the peninsula held all the kids snack and breakfast food (cereal boxes could be stored up right). It was great. Can't get that with framed cabinets!

Same view but a bit better

Our table. Kids ate all meals here, did homework, art, crafts etc. (We ate in dining room and still do)

The original layout. It broke most of the rules in the NKBA guidelines but served us very well for 14 years and we entertained a lot.

Buehl and Cheril27,
Geez, you're good.

All of you have given me a lot to think about, to the point of back-to-the-drawingboard. But it's good that it's happening now.

I do plan to have drawers wherever possible. However, I was concerned about drawers in the appliance cab (18"wide)taking up too much space. But now that I think about it, vertical space is lost in shelves as well since the blenders and food processors have to be moved. Need to remeasure and to rearrange the present appliance cab to see what works best. I can have drawers on the bottom and doors on the top. Also means I might have to break old habits.
I don't care for ROTS anyway.

Please keep those ideas and comments coming.
Thanks!

canishel, I can attest to the fact that it can be hard to believe that frameless base cabinets can be "so good" when every cabinet within 100 miles is Not That. ...It happened to me too. I had a hard time believing anything written in discussions. Then I went to an Ikea and saw frameless in action. I had to be go back a few hundred times just to reassure myself about every objection I thought of later. You get the picture.

I think it is great to " have drawers on the bottom and doors on the top. " My ideal is a framed wall structure with continuous shelf crossing the width of the wall. This uses the frame as structure for the doors and also to hold the wall(room)-length shelves. Not sure if my words are clear, but I hope you get the picture. What I mean is that frameless forces you to have sides, which cut shelves that could have been continuous.

Hth

What David says is true for the uppers. For instance, we had to have two 21" cabinets instead of one 42" cabinet so we lost a inch and a half of interior space. I've seen kitchens done with framed uppers and frameless bases and they looked great. And if it's full overlay, you can't even tell. It's what I would have preferred but the company we went with didn't make frameless cabinets at all (I simply couldn't resist their QS white oak).

My frameless are a mix of Brookhaven and Woodmode. I never expected to have Woodmode, especially since I associated them with heavily detailed, framed and more ornate styles. You can get that, but they put the same quality into the framless cabinets and the main difference in the Brookhaven (other than price) will be on the interior -- drawer sides are lower (about half) unless ordered with full sides, laminated interior rather than finished wood. The cabinets are very solid -- both lines. But I really don't recall any actual experiences with frameless cabinets not being sturdy -- just cabinet folks trying to talk people out of them because they didn't sell or make them.

Something you might consider for appliances if you have an appropriate space -- a 13-15" deep base will hold most appliances and make them easier to get in and out than a deeper cabinet. My island size was limited by the previous one, so I used 21" deep vanity cabinets and 13" door cabinets (like a wall cabinet, but on a toe kick) installed back to back. The shelves are great for having everything right where you can see it and reach it -- no moving things in and out to get behind them or things getting forgotten in the back. The frameless cabinet just adds to everything being right there in the open.

Davidro1,
I'm not sure what you mean, but you replied at a good time.

I want to have the cabinets to go almost to the ceiling, leaving ~2" (whatever it takes) for minimal crown moulding. This implies that two 24" deep stacked cabinets are needed rather than one tall cab (so that the cabs can be rotated and installed). This particular setup is next to a desk (regular desk height)with 12" deep wall cabs over the desk. So how do you hide the join? If a 29" 2-drawer base is used (so that the join is hidden by the adjacent countertop), the drawers won't be deep enough. If a 34 1/2" or higher base is used, the join with the upper cab will be visible.
The sketch below is a work in progress. I need to rethink the desk and wall cab widths.
{{gwi:1691682}}

Cheril27,
Thanks for explaining davidro1's comments. My concern with a long expanse of shelving is deflection (see florantha's sag link). The idea makes sense,though.

lascatx, thanks for your comments. I plan on using a vanity drawer cab for a movable island. You made me rethink many things. And I was so sure of myself...