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Potty Training - Crate vs. With Me

17 years ago

Didn't want to hijack the thread about how much time a dog spends in a crate, but this is related.

We have a 4 1/2 month old female labrador puppy, and she's been with us about 6 weeks. The first two weeks, she was crated most of the time except for supervised play episodes and potty trips outside several times a day. We got a small crate for portability, and I kept her with me virtually all the time. She eliminated immediately after eating, which made things easy, and potty training seemed to be going pretty well.

Over the next few weeks, I gradually gave her a little more freedom letting her out of the crate more but keeping her in the room with me. But as her digestive system matured, her potty habits becase less predictable. We are watchful though, so whenever she started sniffing around or went to the door, we immediately opened the door, and she usually went potty. Lots of praise.

But now since she's grown so much, we've had to move up to an adult-lab sized crate which IS NOT easily portable... Which means it stays upstairs in our bedroom, so when she's downstairs, she's not crated.

And she's having occasional accidents (2-4x/week). She's not 'sniff-patrolling' reliably anymore, and will sometimes just calmly walk over to the door and go right in front of it! Meaning she's not even WAITING a minute for us to get there and let her out before she pees -- seriously - no pause at all. She's never unsupervised, so we *always* catch her mid-pee, and do a quick verbal scold before helping her out the door.

But shouldn't she be over this by now? (Our other two puppies were trained within a week.) She doesn't seem very upset by our scolding either...

Anyway - Do you all think she has too much freedom?

Should we crate her more downstairs even though we're always right there and watching?

And are there any other ways to build 'hold it' power?

Comments (12)

  • 17 years ago

    Put a leash on her and tie it your belt loop, that prevents the sneaking off ... so you absolutely will see her when she starts to squat.

    Are her accidents more pee related, than poo related... you may want to take a pee sample to the vet to check for a urinary infection. If it hurts, she can't hold it.

    Usually Labs are REALLY easy to train, so I'm surprised she doesn't seem bothered by scolding.

    What is your feeding schedule? Are you free feeding, or is she on a set schedule. You should limit her access to food and water and keep her on a set feeding schedule.

    How often do you take her out to pee? Are you waiting until she goes to the door? You could set an alarm and take her outside every hour - a pre-emptive strike if you will. Praise when she goes, no praise when she doesn't go.

    Another thing that I do, whenever I go to the bathroom, I take my dogs out after wards. I figure if I have to go, then they probably have to go also. Its probably silly, but it works.

  • 17 years ago

    Thanks for the suggestions Joe --

    It's pee accidents mainly - no poop accidents unless we got distracted, and that's been a few weeks.
    She can hold it all night, so does that rule out urinary tract issues?

    Maybe I've been too gentle with the scolding... When I saw her snacking on cat poop, I was much less gentle and she seemed to get that message pretty quickly! (Well, twice. Two scoldings and one dirty look...) I'll try louder and nastier with the pee --

    We feed her at 8:00 am and 6:00 pm, with free water in between. I can see that unlimited water would contribute to the problem, but she seems to drink a lot also and I know lots of water is important to her health. And if she gets thirsty, she drinks from our dirty little outdoor pond - which I'd prefer she not do.
    How restrictive can I safely be with water?

    She goes outside at least 2-3 times in the morning, 3-4 in the afternoon, and twice at night. At least... Sometimes her accidents will be within 15 minutes of coming back inside. Or within five minutes of being offered a trip outside. Whenever she seems uncomfortable or anxious, I offer her a trip outside then too...

  • 17 years ago

    Crating should NEVER EXCEED 3 HOURS A DAY!!!!!
    I suspect your dog who is now reaching maturity is needing more outside time. Leash walking, swimming, running, play and socialization time with other dogs this will all help with potty problems - which makes it much easier than running around after your dog trying to clean up.
    Most reputable trainers will tell you to put yourself in the dogs position. Dogs were bred to do a job, to move 4 hours a day not remain in a crate bored and without stimulation.

  • 17 years ago

    The only time she's in a crate now Mazer is overnight -- and that's not negotiable for several months to a year, even.

    And she does get lots of outdoor time. A typical day is up at 6:30 or 7:00 and immediately outside for potty. Then 30-60 minutes of quiet indoor play with older dog, son (13), Hubby and me. Breakfast at 8:00 am followed by 30-60 minutes of active play outside with older dog, 30-minute walk with me, then nap (open dog bed) in my office until lunch time. Then potty break, water, active play with other dog outside while I fix lunch. After lunch, I usually throw the ball with both dogs for 20-30 minutes and do some sit-stay-come-fetch training. Then another afternoon nap (dog bed) until 3:30 or so. Potty break, snack, quiet play until son comes home at 4:00. Then active play outside, more water. Dinner at 6:00, then outside to play with older dog while people eat. Water bowl goes dry for the night at 7:30 or so, and she falls asleep around 8:00 or 9:00.

    Most of her pee accidents happen between 5:00 pm and 8:00 pm. The one she had tonight, I had just offered to let her outside not 2 minutes earlier! She refused, wandered around the island (looking for other dog, I thought), then back into the center of the kitchen floor and Splat!

    This time, there was no doubt she knew I was angry, so we'll see if she evidences any learning...

  • 17 years ago

    Have you been telling her to go potty? It might help to get her to go on a cue word, I use "potty". Some people use "business" or whatever...

    When she goes - you say the word, so she learns it.
    Then you can teach her to go on command... eliminating those times when she goes out but is too busy sniffing around. Sometimes a reminder helps her think, oh yeah, I'm out here to go potty...

  • 17 years ago

    Not to hijack, but Joe, I am glad you mentioned the cue word. We used to use "potty" as a cue word when we were teaching our puppy where to eliminate, but haven't used it now that she knows. Sometimes, though, when we are leaving for a few hours, I'll walk her or let her out, and she doesn't go - apparently doesn't need to. Then I have to wonder whether she will need to go an hour after we leave the house. Will have to start using the cue word again!

  • 17 years ago

    If you a responding to your dogs potty issues with anger, you wil not get anywhere. It is possible there could be a medical problem with your dog spine, you might mention al lthis to a vet during the next appointment. It is possible your dog could have some sort of nerve damage. Dont respond in anger to your dog going to the bathroom in your home. Take the offending matter outside where you want your dog to go and leave it there. Later during the walks show your dog her business and give her a command - No in a yelling mean voice but a nice voice to go outside or whatever you choose. When she does poop outside - while she is pooping, give her a command to do so and praise her as though she has just brought you a bag with 10 thousand dollars in it. Good luck

  • 17 years ago

    You don't need to be "louder and nastier", but you do need to be quicker and stricter. Keep a lease on the dog and keep the leash tied to you. That way she won't get a chance to go around the island *g*. If you see her START to squat, immediately give a sharp NO (doesn't have to be loud or mean, but it needs to convey that the behavior is inappropriate) and give her the bum's rush to the door. Once outside, give her the cue word and wait until she goes. I don't allow my dogs to roam all over the place looking for the perfect spot - go potty means go potty right now. When she goes, throw a little party.

    Having some accidents in the house is a good thing IF you catch her in the act. You get a chance to reinforce that in the house is not a good thing and she learns that much quicker.

    On the other hand, absolutely do not do anything if you don't catch her ( and nope, seeing her walk away is not catching her). Dogs just don't get it, no matter how many owners insist that "he knew he did wrong" Yeah, sure, they are going to look guilty and hang
    their heads if you discover them standing next to a mess. Because they are exceptionally good at reading you - they know you are annoyed, even before you open your mouth. They KNOW. And they are not pleased that YOU are not pleased.

    And don't "offer" to take her out. If you think she needs to go, take her out and give the cue. Don't move until she's produced a dribble or a splat and then throw a potty party again.

    The combination of crating, scheduled breaks and strict supervision really does produce amazing results

  • 17 years ago

    Mazer - My idea of "appropriate anger" with a dog lasts less than two seconds. "Sharper and Quicker" would have been a better and more accurate description. And yes, it's always "in the act only"...

    I'll start using the "potty" word Joe -- I think that might help.

  • 17 years ago

    I am not sure how others feel about this - but I think it might be a good idea to move her crate downstairs if she is able to hold it all night now, and you don't have to get up with her?

    I am kind of from the opinion that having the dog with you all day, every day, in the same room, even at night, can lead to anxiety issues. This could help you the times you can't watch her to have the crate near by so she never has time to sneak away.

    Also, her sleeping through the night does not rule out UTI issues. Even when my poor Coda was unable to hold her urine during the day and was peeing blood due to her infection and stones, about every 20 minutes spontaneously, she still made it just fine through the night.

    The thing with UTI's though, is they usually don't make it to the door, because they need to go NOW. And often they won't even squat to go, it just happens. So it's likely she's just not fully getting it yet. I'd still have her checked out though, because a mild UTI could cause her to go frequently without presenting any other symptoms or urgency.

  • 17 years ago

    Jamas,
    When you say you don't allow your dogs to find the perfect spot, how do you get them to hurry up and go? My pug is sniffing in circles until I get dizzy watching! How can I quicken that up when it's zero degrees outside?

  • 17 years ago

    It's not hard, but it is time-consuming - like much of dog training

    Dog is tethered to you with a leash. He indicated the need to go, so you rush outside (you're able to move quickly because he already has his leash on!) to the designated spot and give the word. I don't talk to the dog in any way other than to give the cue - go potty. No conversations, no distractions. If he sniffs more than once or twice or starts to wander, I guide him back with the leash and repeat the cue. WHEN he goes, then we have a party.

    If it takes more than a minute or two, he didn't have to potty and we go back inside. He learns that it isn't party time..it's potty time. The party is after the potty.

    It's VERY important that you watch him if he didn't go the first time. You cannot allow him to wander off and go behind the couch - it undoes all your work. Keep him on the leash and be attentive.

    Granted, it's more pleasant to be going in and out when it's 70 and sunny than in the dead of winter, but it does work :-) Oh- and no Flexi while training. it allows for too much wandering around. A simple 6 ft lead works best.

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