Ooooh, yes, I think she's on the right track. I think it looks fabulous!

Um. Yeah.

Why is the DW in the prep zone? Why are the fake dish racks in the prep zone? What are you possibly going to store in those minuscule cabinets next to the window? How are you going to use the blind black hole to the right of the fridge/freezer? Why are there glass doors near the range, where normally no one stores anything worth displaying, yet none near the sink, where the dishes cups, glasses and pretties normally go?

On your process question: What is your KD? A showroom rep? An independent?

looks like the dw is to the right of the main sink.

I agree with marcolo on the cab glass fronts - and the fake (?) dish rack.

how about a CD fridge? how wide is that f/f? yikes, it looks HUGE.

I don't know the width of the upper cabs by the window...

I don't see many drawers. insist on drawer stacks.
do you want a range vs cooktop / wall oven? or did she just put that in there?

how about posting a graph sheet layout with windows/doors marked, measurements and place the appliances in as she did.

how many kids? how many cooks?

then we can really 'see' it.

As suggested, have the floor plan dimensioned, get a typlcal yardstick, mentally stand in the space, walk around, reach for things, take thing out of the fridge, set it on the island walk around to the prep sink side, then to the cooking appliance.
Is this space now conveniant to you, does this fit your skill set.

With regards to "one free estimate".
Is this guy on title?
Is he going to be chipping in on the mortgage?

Maybe he needs to slow his roll and you need to "adjust his ego".

Ok, so I think I'm sending this lady another email. I've already mentioned the plate racks to her (definitely not my cup of tea) and that odd corner next to the F+F.

Regarding the appliances, she's used the ones that I requested... The Electrolux Icon Fridge and Freezer (32" wide each) which is the main thing that I really want to fit in this kitchen. I didn't think I had the room for a wall oven so I requested a slide in range.

Marcolo ~ Thanks for validating some of the issues that I was unsure about. Those tiny cabinets are probably expensive as well as useless. I'll also ask her to move the glass front cabs. I'm new to the concept of prep zones and clean-up zones. Where should my DW go? I thought next to the big sink. My KD is a showroom rep.

Desertsteph ~ I wish I had a grid to show you but I posted all the info I have. I'm sure I will get more as we get further into the design process so I'll post more when I have it. We are currently a family of 4 but we're planning for 1-2 more children. It's usually a 1 cook kitchen but I'd definitely like to accommodate 2.

I don't know if this helps, but I'll post the photos anyway. We're not building a lot house, but we will have log posts and beams similar to the photos below. My kitchen dimensions are very similar... My fridge wall is exactly the same size, the bottom of my U is 1.5ft wider, and my range side is about equal in length to the fridge side (so shorter than the photo). My kitchen won't look like this one wrt decor!

I REALLY appreciate all the help.
{{!gwi}}

sorry, I posted 2 identical photos. I wish we could edit our posts!

You want the DW on the other side of the sink, away from the range. It's not nice to prep over a DW because you often have to step out of the way as people reach in for things; or if it's running, you get nice hot steam in your knickers while you're trying to roll out pie crust.

The freezer-or-ref door will smack the counter. The corner next door to the freezer-or-ref will be nearly impossible to access because the user's body will be kept back from the edge of the counter another 6-10". You won't be able to do a "magic corner" unit either - because it won't open with the freezer-or-ref that close and overlapping its door.

It might hit the island with its handle - its that close.

If that's not enough for you, when open, it will prevent access to 1/2 of the cleanup sink. If you move the dw to the other side of the sink, there is a very real possibility of door collisions.

That makes perfect sense now that you mention it. Now, does my sink need to be in the center of the window? I think I need more room on the left for the DW so that it doesn't collide with the F+F.

bmorepanic ~ I need about 4-5 ft of clearance between the fridge and the island, right? I've asked my KD for the island dimensions but she hasn't responded yet.

My kitchen is 16 ft wide. What is the maximum width of island that I can fit in there?

I'd make doing the layout on graph paper a priority. It can take lots of reworking - and time. you can download graph paper from online. or use a program available online free. gw'rs have used them from the IKEA site, lowe's and others.
I print a graph sheet out and draw it in myself. I've done that for other rooms placing furniture pieces on it to be sure things will fit.

plan for kids that grow and take up more space - and eat more and need to reach spaces for things like dishes, mw. Also, for them to help with kitchen chores and learn to cook.

I agree that the glass cabs shouldn't be beside range (and you should have the cabinets opening into the range as well btw), and the column cabs at sink are useless.

But I completely disagree that dw should be on the left. At least for how my family uses kitchens. But what matters is how you'll use the kitchen so you need to think about that -- perhaps try snoonyb's idea and proportion it out and try walking around it in and envisioning how you and your family will interact in the kitchen.

I would prep on the island -- isn't that the whole point of having the prep sink there? -- not beside the cleanup sink staring at the wall. I wouldn't want the dw left of sink as that's where I'd probably have coffee maker and cups and glasses.

From my own experience, trying to prep or clean at either sink while other members of my family tried to make coffee, use the fridge to pour a glass of milk, etc, has been the bane of my past existence, and workflow that keeps fridge and coffee away from my working areas has made the kitchen function so much better.

I think the plates are in the right area (regardless of whether you're a platerack person or not, i'm not either). I'd envision prepping at the island, but plating to the left of the range, hence that's the logical place for dish storage to me.

Your mileage may vary, but think hard about how you and your family will use the kitchen before changing the layout too drastically.

Re. the fridges, I think the eluxes are counter depths so they won't stick out quite so far. You can consider recessing them into pantry wall to gain further room, or bringing out the left wall counter to be a bit deeper.

Lastly, I think you KD is on the right track for just ASKING if she's on the right track. Seems like she wants your feedback and collaboration re. how you'll use the kitchen and what you like and dislike. Not all KD's are like that.

You really need to rethink your refrigerator choices and perhaps locate the freezer elsewhere if you remain firm on these. They do not fit the scale of your kitchen at all and are a huge impediment to a functional workspace.

Yes, and one more thought on the fridges. If they're similar to ours which are also 2 x 32"ers, they aren't actually "true" built-ins and they do require an inch of clearance on the sides and something like a 1/2" or 3/4" in between. If you're planning to use the trim kit, the cutout specs are something like 66 3/4" or 67" and not the 64 you gave the KD.

Looking at the 48 built-ins would be a much better option for your space. If you really really don't want to give the eluxes up then you should consider floor plan changes such as extending the walls out further into the aisles ... which might lead to other unintended consequences and a domino effect which may make it an unfeasible option.

If the refs are drawn correctly, there is about 32-33" of aisle in front of the ref-frzr to the island. The door will be about 32" wide, so yeah, I would go with 48" there to let a person stand directly in front when they cruise the ref.

According to z'book, the unit is 29" deep including the handles - if you have recessed outlets For me, I like the dishwasher to be on the opposite side of the sink from dish storage. I don't want to reach over the open dishwasher to try and put something away. I have it the other way now, and I'm not big on having to walk around the open dw to put something away.

Hmmm, you have definitely given me some things to think about. Thank-you!

Is the general consensus that I can't fit a separate F+F in my kitchen? I use my current chest freezer daily so having one located in my kitchen would be a big deal for me. However, I could look into the 48" combo. But then, I can fill my current fridge to the brim with fresh foods and we're only a young family of 4!! I'm pretty sure I will need more fridge space than I have now. What's the best solution here? What would I use the extra counter space for if I did get a 48" unit?

As for DW, you've brought up some good points. I'll be honest, I have NEVER owned a DW, so these aren't issues I think about. I'm tall enough to lean over one though, I do it at my MIL's house all the time.

Taggie ~ Thanks for making me think about how we will use this kitchen. I do imagine myself prepping on the island while I oversee homework etc.

desertsteph~ Thanks for the suggestion, I will do it asap.

One more question: I don't have an appliance garage in the plans. We don't have a coffee maker (DH doesn't drink it and I use VIA). I do use a kettle daily and the toaster regularly. Do I need one? Is that what should replace the separate freezer, or can it fit in the corner?

In the current plans, I have a MW drawer opposite the main sink. Is this a good location?

Thank-you!!!

I'm back! I tried the Ikea program but it was very time consuming for me, so here's a hand-written graph of the current kitchen plan (1 big square = 1 ft). Hopefully this is legible.

{{!gwi}}

By my calculations, if I recess the F+F into the pantry as taggie suggested (and reverse the door swing direction of the pantry), and leave 48" of clearance on all sides of the island, then my island can be 4 ft wide.

Is this a reasonable plan?

No, your kitchen simply isn't big enough to fit in all of the things you want. Each seated person need 2'wide by 1' deep section of counter. You have everyone sharing the same counter.

Your kitchen needs to be larger, or your wants smaller. Since you are in the design phase of a whole home, it should be a simple matter to increase the kitchen space. The depth of the kitchen needs to increase by at least 4' and so does the width. The fridges will still loom extremely large and dominate the whole kitchen, but at least they'll mostly fit. However, you need to move up to a 36"-48" range to match the fridge size.

Or else move back to a standard 36" fridge and keep the current space almost as is.

Well, we are in the design phase of our kitchen, but the footprint of our home is final. The log portion is nearly complete and thus can't be changed.

Would a paneled refrigerator make a difference? I definitely don't want a bigger range, I'd never use it. I looked into 48" fridges as recommended earlier. I'd go that route if they weren't thousands more than what I've chosen.

I'm just not sure why I'd give up a freezer that I'd use on a daily basis in favor of more storage for infrequently used items.

Feeling very torn on this issue...

If your main concern with shrinking the fridge is losing freezer space, then what about adding a freezer drawer somewhere? Another thought is going to the Thermador 24" units as others have but the price tag is heftier.
Go to an appliance site like ajmadison.com and you can search on tons of fridges, freezers, and drawers along with all of their dimensions.
I'll add that a friend has a similar size kitchen with those elux fridge/freezers and they totally dominate the room. If I had a nickel for every time they entertain and people comment on how huge they are, I'd be in good shape :) She once asked me - do they really look that bad? She's pretty bummed out that she spent a lot of money on her kitchen and the first thing people comment on is the size of her fridge and freezer.

Put the freezer in the mudroom if you gotta keep those behemoths. That will solve one of the problems of the dominating mass on that wall and the inaccessible black hole in the corner. And no, don't shift to a 48" fridge. That's still a Hulk visually and still doesn't let you have all that usable of a corner. Maybe a 42" paneled fridge would work in that space, but the kitchen was only designed for a standard 36" fridge. You can still find 36" fridges that will give you 30 cubic feet of storage space, and they are far more economical, so think really hard about this. This is not that big of a kitchen to have that much refrigeration in it. If you need that much cold storage, then the house itself is probably too small for your needs as whole, not just the kitchen.

That still doesn't address the problem of the off center window with the DW located in the prep zone rather than a well defined cleanup zone. I'd shift the sink down under the 3rd window to get the DW out of your prep zone. Or move the window over if it's not been built yet. And no, a prep sink on the island won't solve that problem because there really isn't room for the island as drawn from the architect, much less an island with a prep sink.

I don't think you really need seating "in" the kitchen like you think you do. Your dining space is literally 5' away and the kitchen is very open to the DR. However, the bigger problem than you wanting duplicate seating that close is that the island as drawn sticks out into that traffic aisle by about 3-4 feet, completely blocking any traffic, and doesn't really work there at all from the beginning of the design. There isn't room for it as drawn on the plan at all, much less as large as you want to make it with seating.

Bluntly, the island needs to go. You might have room for an 18"x 30" mobile cart there, but that's it. You do not want cabinets sticking past the two wing walls blocking the aisle. That's just plain horrible design, and the kitchen as drawn from the architect never had proper room for an island, much less the one drawn there. It's bait and switch. It's shown on the home drawings with something that the room doesn't have the space for. I'd be on the phone to the architect hopping mad. THe house isn't even done and it won't fit the things you want in it because it's not designed correctly.If you gave the architect the dimensions of the appliances you wanted to use and the direction that you wanted a kitchen with an island with room for seating for four, then he fundamentally failed you on all points when it came to the size of the kitchen. It's not even big enough for seating for one.

This is a try at a less = more design. The island is about 1.5 feet longer and terminates in a curved end. It pushes out another foot into whatever is in front of the kitchen. An alternate and good solution might be to cut the counter height seating and simply put a table on the end of the island - like 36" x 60" size if that kind of space is available.

hth.

Other than I just like circular seating arrangements, you can't quite fit four people around the corners like that. Each person's legs and arms would prevent the person around the corner from using the same space. But when you introduce a curve, plus a tiny slice of flatness, you get more space. Without knowing anything about the rest of the house, I don't know if its ok to steal like this.

These are other ref ideas that might take a ton of cash. Some people manage to get stuff like this at deep discount on ebay at reasonable cost.

Liebherr makes a 3 zone 48" wide, 2/3 of a 24" wide side is freezer, 1/3 is fresh veg keeper, an entire 24" wide side is fresh. Combine that with a feeder chest freezer in a utility area. Another version of that is to get the electrolux all ref ONLY and then get a set of freezer drawers.

If you go with a 36" combo unit, add ref drawers over near the range for eggs/butter/milk/herbs/veg/white vino.

Lastly, the thing about having a bigger freezer in a remote location is about the same as storing all the food in a slightly remote pantry like yours (walk around the refs and a log, open a door, ?pick up a basket? or carry stuff to the island one or two items at a time, go back and close the door). You'd use the remote freezer a couple of times a week at most to fill up the closer one.

We chose to have a very small combo unit in our kitchen and have an additional upright freezer in a utility space on the same level. Every couple of days, I pick out what we're having and bring it to the in-kitchen ref to defrost or place in the freezer if its frozen veg or pre-mades.

Well, I am really glad that I decided to post my layout on GW. I was so sure about the Electolux pair 2 days ago, but you have me convinced that my kitchen is too small for it. Given what I am willing to spend on appliances, I will shop for a 36" fridge with 30 cubic feet of storage as holly suggested.

Regarding the island, are others in agreement that I don't have room for one? The seating isn't a big issue for me but I thought it would be a nice prep space (as well as make my kitchen functional for 2 cooks).

I didn't catch that the island was all the way into the aisle at first look. I see that issue now. With a table and chairs in the dining room, you need at least 60" between the island and edge of the table to have enough room for people to walk through between the two spaces. I can't read how wide that aisle is, but it doesn't look 60". More like 36" between the post by the pantry and the mud room. Your island shouldn't protrude past the walls and into your aisles at all. With a real table and chairs in the dining area, you wouldn't have any walkway at all and all of the traffic would be routed around the island through your work area.

You probably have room for a 48" x 24" island in the space, but no seating. It will depend on the exact depth of the kitchen area and if you manage to recess a standard depth fridge into the pantry area. If you don't recess the fridge, the island goes down to 36" x 24". You can NOT have the island space impinge into the traffic path and have your kitchen be functional. That's a pretty small island to have a prep sink be on, but maybe a 12" sink wouldn't take away from the open space too badly if it's on a corner.

Make the sink area the most functional it can be by locating it in the center of the back wall. That will give you good room to the right for prep and good room to the left for cleanup. And yes, the DW is always located in the cleanup zone to avoid collisions from combining zones and crossing paths. Your main dish storage will be to the left of the sink next to the smaller fridge. I'd put a standard MW on a shelf in a base next to the 36" fridge. Now you have a snack zone that doesn't infringe too badly on the prep zone.

Live_wire ~ The aisle is 5ft. Does your recommendation for island size stay the same?

Relenting on the F+F issue really allows me to put my MW and DW in better areas. Thanks for pointing that out.

You could possibly shift to using 15" deep cabinets for the island with a 15" overhang, and that wouldn't protrude into your aisle but 6" or so. 5' is the suggested minimum between island and DR table for passing between two sets of seated people. 72" is better if you expect people to be carrying something like groceries or platters of food between the seated people.

How big is your DR and the table that will be in it? (Don't forget the door swing issue that you have there that will impact the size and placement of the table.) Where the table ends up there will tell you how big your island can be without squeezing everyone through the DR rather than walking straight from the mudroom through to the family area.

Mock it up. Figure on a 24" x24" tall box being the size of a seated person and place the fixed seated people 54" apart with them on the inside of that. Try walking through the space repeatedly. Try having two people wanting through the space from different directions. See how friendly you have to get. If this is the major traffic route into the home by the family, you will really hate squeezing past. If it's the secondary route, it might be more doable.

Live_wire ~ Thanks for replying so quickly. I could probably use your advice on my dining room as well since it opens onto a large deck. I don't have any furniture yet, so no set size of DR table. What way should I orient the table? Here's more of my floor plan so that you can see how the dining room flows to the deck and great room.

laurajane02, if you really really really wanted to keep the big fridge/freezer then bmorepanic's very clever layout above is pretty much the only way to do so.

Biggest issue with your previous layout -- nothing to do with the look of the behemoths -- is that you wouldn't be able to open the fridge door wide enough. It would hit the counter. You need a minimum of 18" clearance, and preferably 24" for full opening, to swing the door open wide enough to get remove drawers and shelves for cleaning. You can see the clearance requirement here:

You could always add the all-freezer to your pantry or mudroom though. Just make sure you place in on a side wall with enough room to get the door opened wide enough when required.

I've just skimmed the comments above and I disagree that you don't have room for an island. I think there's tons of room there. But maybe I'm missing something ... it is kind of hard to tell from the drawing above. I was assuming there are no walls and that once you're in the kitchen the dining room isn't actually delineated as a separate (roughly 17x17?) space from the kitchen. Is that right or wrong? If right, then you have plenty of room for an island.

Just make sure that at the end of the day you have a good compromise between what will FUNCTION well for your family as well as what might "look" magazine-elegant at a surface glance. E.g., if having the kids sit with you doing homework at the island while you cook is really important to you, don't give that up easily if there's a way to make it work.

Live_wire_oak's advice is excellent: Mock it up. Walk it, pretend to use it, and see how it will work for you. That's the best advice you can get.

How many people need to use this space to eat daily? What about when you have guests?

Is the door to the deck already set in stone? Because if you could shift it down towards the family room, I can see doing a banquette in the lower left corner of the DR so that none of the traffic that will go out to the deck interferes with seated diners. An outswing door would also help with that, but it would also interfere with using the deck more. Of course, a slider wouldn't interfere with either space. Not all sliders look like refugees from 1970's mobile homes, so if doors haven't been finalized, it might be worth exploring.

I have another idea that might get you your fridge and freezer back if you could move the door---or at least it could get you less awkward seating on a larger island.

So, can the door shift?

Live_wire ~ Yes, I can move the door! Only the logs are set in stone. The doors and windows can still be adjusted to be in any size and location. We could do sliders if that makes the most sense. My GC doesn't order doors + windows until the framing is complete and we haven't broken ground yet. I would love to hear your idea!

taggie ~ You're right about the dining area. The dining area and great room are really just one big open space.

Oh, and right now, 4 people use this space daily. We are planning in have 1-2 more children though. We do entertain regularly.

What this does is shift your traffic patterns through the space to the other side of the big post. It extends the kitchen wall down to it. That will allow your fridge and freezer to occupy enough space that you aren't left with a dark corner and you even have room enough for a microwave next to it. It also hides the "bulk" from the main view of the family room. Putting the range on the wall where you currently have the fridge will allow it to be more of a focal point when viewed from the family area. The oddly shaped island will allow the seating for 4 that you want, and if the stools are tucked fully under out of the way, it's still big enough for a secondary sink in the corner. With the range shifted to the other wall though, the secondary sink acts more as a beverage/snack sink than a prep sink. The primary prep space will be in the corner between the sink and the stove or that corner of the island.

The drawbacks are that this more limits the open feeling between the kitchen and family room, although it doesn't affect the connection between the DR and kitchen. The island is a barrier island, in between the sink and fridge. But, to be fair, it was that from the beginning and swapping the fridges and stove doesn't change that at all.

If you don't want to limit the family room/kitchen connection, then perhaps you could go back to the 36" fridge and original location of the appliances. But keep the counter space peninsula extension to the post as a counter only to serve as seating from both sides and take away the seating from the island.

Live_Wire ~ Thank-you for giving me an alternate layout. I never would have thought of that! I went over your ideas with DH and he would really prefer to keep the open layout. Therefore, a 36" fridge is as wide as I can go. However, your rendering with the F+F on the other wall gave me an idea. What if I recessed a 36" fridge into the computer area? The computer area is 4ft deep so there should be lots of room.

Is this better? I'm still not sure what the island should look like, but I liked bmorepanic's rendering (thanks for that btw!)