Since you're also posting over at ikeafans, I'd point out that that's another 75,000 people who will hear about it, too.

Good luck with the resolution. I agree whole heartedly. The reason I asked the previous question re: franchise or nationally owned... the "guys" who are at my local LL are the least helpful "sales people" that I have ever met. Not only do they have the personalities of fireplugs, they have the customer service skills of a rhinocerous. I had thought if all stores were corporate, that it may be better to start at a regional level with your dilemma to resolve.

I was there a few months ago looking at unfinished t&g pine flooring and the guy looked me in the eye and said "Lady, you don't want this! You can't use pine for floors its too soft. Let me get you some samples of oak or an engineered floor that will look better". There isn't much I dislike more than a person (unsolicited) telling me What to do, or What I like. BTW my NEW pine floors are beautiful and they are from a local millyard which bent over backwards and had outstanding customer service.

I do appreciate your updates and bringing this issue to the forum. I look forward to any resolve you may have. I without doubt will add my name to the growing list of those who will steer clear of LL.

I find this curious.

How do we know what was disclosed or not about this product? Do we know for a fact that they were selling it as "solid maple butcher block top"? I'd take exception to the whole thing as that's not butcher block to me anyway. True butcher block top is end grain only, what's shown here is bowling alley floor.

Lumber Liquidators is the source? What about this name makes you think it's a top notch, tier 1 supplier? They don't advertise as such either. We have nice stuff at low prices because we haggle w/our vendors and buy distressed stuff sound like what I've seen /heard.

How do you think they are able to sell this at a lower price than BOOS Bros. or Michigan Maple? It's not because they're stores are less fancy ect... It's because they use lesser quality materials and cheaper labor.

antss

Unless the manager is a complete idiot her response to the inquiry that the product was not solid maple if it wasn't supposed to be should have been of course it isn't rather than my expectation is that it would be solid maple and we won't take it back because you you can't prove that the top in the picture is the top on your receipt. Don't you think?

Antss, it's sold as maple. It ain't all maple. A few holes, sure. It's not top quality. But it ought to at least be as described. You know, MAPLE. PO wasn't expecting John Boos. But PO was expecting maple, and not out of line to do so.

(And while it's not end grain butcherblock, it's still pretty commonly called butcherblock).

Sounds like a big case of false advertising to me. I checked out LL's website and nowhere does it say anything about it not being solid maple. It doesn't say it IS solid maple, it just says unfinished maple butcherblock. Shouldn't they be disclosing that there are other woods in there somewhere? I'd be getting the numbers of the higher ups on this one and I'd be TICKED OFF! I sent them an e-mail asking if their maple butcherblock is solid maple, just out of curiosity. I'll post back what they say. We're looking to do a butcherblock countertop in our laundry room but I think we'll definitely be going with Ikea after this!

Here is a link that might be useful: LL's description of maple countertops

Guys _ I'm not looking to pick a fight or slam the OP. I actually find practices like this to be disingenious. It's not full disclosure, but hey it's not bait and switch either.

Fori - look what you just said "it's sold as maple - It' ain't all maple" It's not being sold as "all maple" ! It does contain maple, so can be sold as such. It's not sold as "first quality" either. Why would you expect it to be first quality at a place like that anyway??? THAT WAS THE POINT OF MY LAST POST!!! For pete's sake the stuff is only 13 bucks a square foot. Can you guys even by a lamanite top for that price, let alone a stylish quality counter?

Are you getting any less of a Cadillac STS because it has a Chevy derived engine and transmission? Is it less of a Chevy because it was developed by a division of Mercury Marine? Under your strict guide lines you'd have to be angry because it's not as advertised, or even disclosed in the easily seen literature.

Cary _ I don't think or assume anything about a second rate store's ops personel, they generally know less about the products they carry then I do. They know a lot about the store's policies and scheduling - hence the we're not going to refund OP's $$$ when the contract's time is up. This stuff will also come out of that stores bottom line, as second goods retailers don't have the luxury of returning everything to the vendor for a credit like H.Depot, Lowe's & Wal-Mart. So, another reason to stick firm to a store's refund policy -especially when it's not the manager's fault they are selling shoddy stuff. She's making do the best she can.

I don't see anything wrong w/this top as long as you don't want to have an undermout sink in it. Looks pretty good, no one has said it's flimsy, and the price is cheap,cheap , cheap.

FWIW Ikea BB is even less expensive, but it's always all the same wood, all the way through, whatever wood it's sold as.

They (Ikea) advertise solid wood tops and composite wood product tops. They are cheap and I believe most are beech. They might offer oak also.

They offer beech, oak, and birch in one thickness and oak in another. They don't offer a composite BB.

This is the e-mail I sent to Lumber Liquidators:

Is your maple butcherblock solid maple? Or laminated maple over another wood type?

And their response, I didn't even ask about voids!

Dear Robin,

Thank you for contacting us.

Our butcher block counter tops are solid wood throughout and are free of "voids".

Please contact me if you have any additional questions.

Sincerely,

Keith Sobczak

Notice he said "...solid wood throughout...". So just to be sure, I replied with this:

Thank you, but my question was are the maple countertops solid maple? I realize they are solid wood, but is it ONLY maple?

Thanks again.

Sent from my iPhone

I'll post an update when I receive a response to this. I do find the "free of "voids"" comment curious in light of poorowner's experience.

The voids I get--like Antss said, we're not talking really fine stuff here. And if the void happened to me I'd say "well *&^%" and move on. (But it's quite interesting he mentioned voids. Maybe to him "solid maple" is what you get when it's not hollow maple.)

But the maple veneer--that's not cheap labor. That takes EFFORT to screw up!

PoorOwner's maple veneer on oak butcherblock obviously does has a 'Void'.

Oops, I misspoke. The ikea pronomen countertop isn't oak only, it's beech only.

"I don't see anything wrong w/this top as long as you don't want to have an undermout sink in it. "

But Antss -- She DOES have an undermount sink in it.
And that's why this is such a problem.

Just wanted to note, our BB counter top is from Lumber Liquidators, it's the cherry one and it is cherry all through. Although we aren't done with the installation, we are please with its looks.

I will say, I'm disappointed in LL- yes, they are a discount place but what you advertise is what you advertise. The sad thing is that I'm not surprised. The only good thing I can say about their customer service is that they didn't nag me (they ignored me instead). We do need a wood floor, and if the price is right, we'll probably go back to LL- but I will be very careful inspecting before the return time!

Sorry to hear about this- I think you have the right attitude although it's not perfect, your workmanship is impeccable and your end result will be stunning. Can't wait to see it!

Hi Antss.. I didn't say anywhere I expected premium quality butcherblock, I knew the price I paid.
I also knew it was a bowling lane pattern instead of bigger strips of wood. I actually prefer this pattern. I have seen the samples in person before I ordered.

It sounds like LL used to sell these solid cherry and solid maple. Now they have done this to cut cost. It's sad because they don't understand the trend and needs of kitchen remodelling.

At this point I am going to fix it my way.. Thanks everyone.

poorowner, this thread took on a life of its own. I have been following your other thread and hope this sub par product does not sour your outlook. You do incredible work and I'm confident that you will find a fix that you can live with, will look good, and be functional. Updates on the the other thread as you get a chance are appreciated by this new to DIY dabbler. Are you an engineer?

Hi,
As a woodworker, etc., I find that a product like this does not pass the "suitability" test for a countertop in a kitchen. The maple veneer adds another opportunity for glue failure, exacerbated by nearness to water. Unless it came with a disclosure, anybody who used a router to create an edge profile would be in for the same nasty surprise as the OP received, a different species (color, grain) of wood exposed. Unless this is planned for, it is an undesirable outcome.
Routing a profile into a countertop edge is such a common practice that it can be regarded as an reasonable expectation on the part of the buyer.

Casey

UPDATE

I cut into the smaller 8 footers that I have and found the same thing. The strips at the ends are single solid strips of maple, but once you cut past the first foot or so, it's all a mix of smaller oak and maple strips.

On the cuts exposing end grains, I actually got lucky with the cuts on my sink, no real voids, I have done a few cuts and find sometimes there are really some bad looking oak shoved in the middle with globs of glue oozing out into random voids.

I would advise everyone not to buy this product. I am sure no one wants to now anyway, if you have read this far.

If this product does fail one day I can always buy from Ikea or pay more for one of the real maple counter tops. Although Ikea does not have longer than 8'. I have used Ikea beech for other project before and it's beautiful. It's more yellow and I still prefer maple best.

Casey is right the different wood mixed together is less than desirable. But I do not have any choice but to proceed with the project with what I have.

So disheartening and What a shame! I'm certain the finished project will be wonderful. Probably something only you will notice- (For me, that's always the kicker).

Thank you for sharing your experience! I wish the outcome had been better. I hope it helps knowing that you've saved many, hours of frustration and money.

I would love to see add'l photos of the rest of your kitchen. The stainless farm sink is stunning.

-September

I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS THREAD- IT'S NOT OK THAT THEY GET AWAY WITH THIS !!! That's total horse****!! I'm remodeling my mother-in-laws kitchen and I was going to do her counters myself w/ their cherry tops, undermount sink, and of course route the edges. I read their reviews just this morning on their site, got very excited, then came to my favorite forum. What a disappointment- that is total BS! You've got to talk to the regional manager AT LEAST, and make sure they know about this post! I'm in Orange County, CA and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it happened down here!

Enough people take advantage of consumers everyday, you should NEVER just be OK with it, and that's exactly what happened here!!

I hear ya on this one lynch, which is why I e-mailed the company myself. Never got a reply to the second question I asked but I think the first one says it all. They claim they're maple butcherblock is just that...MAPLE. If I pay for maple, I want maple dagnabbit, not some surprise mystery wood sandwiched between maple. What a crock! But if the OP is okay with it, then so be it. I guess they don't have much recourse at this point. However, I for one will never purchase from LL now!

I have done a little research and have found pictures that back then Lumber Liquidators did sell this with solid maple, with happy customers. Not so now, the 12' and 8' long are both built with oak in between.

When you cut it open, because of the little oak pieces, IMO poorly fitted in between, you can end up finding voids in places.

Please, do not buy from them. If you do, make sure you have in writing from the store what you are getting, and
cut it open at the store. But, it's just better alternative to get a beech or oak from Ikea or pay more for Boos or other butcher block manufacturer, if you need maple.

I have not contacted the corporate but I think I am done dealing with them. I am sure this is just a tiny part of their products anyway. The product is flawed; but not as bad as their customer service.

I did manage to make the wood look better, will post a picture soon.

Well, for what it's worth, here is the message I sent them. I'm sure they won't give a crap but at least I got it off my chest.

Again, PO, I'm so sorry this happened to you. :(
******************
My husband and I are about to begin a kitchen update and to finally replace all of the carpeting in our home with wood floors (roughly 1900 sq ft). Part of my kitchen update was to include a lumber liquidators butcher block island. I also had my heart set on your Virginia Mill Works Espresso Brazilian Cherry Flooring (3/4"x5") to replace all of our carpeting.

However, now that I've come across a certain post on the Gardenweb forums and have been made aware of the poor customer service and (in my opinion) dishonest business practices of LL by providing substandard products I will be taking my business elsewhere.

Please be aware of the below thread on the highly popular Gardenweb forums and know that each day that this situation goes unresolved it will continue to cost Lumber Liquidators $$ in lost business.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg0301315620876.html?61

The title is "Lumber Liquidators butcherblock - Oak in between!".
****************************

Again, FWIW, this is the reply I received...

*********************
RE: Comments to the Office of Tom Sullivan, Chairmanþ
From: Tom Sullivan (ts2@lumberliquidators.com)
Sent: Wed 4/01/09 7:53 PM
Cc: Marco Pescara (mpescara@lumberliquidators.com); Maureen Donich (mdonich@lumberliquidators.com); Bas Van. Genderen (bgenderen@lumberliquidators.com)

Should be solid maple - I will look into this -

Tom Sullivan
Chairman/FounderLumber Liquidators, Inc
3000 John Deere Road
Toano, VA 23168
Direct Tel: 757-259-4281Direct
Fax: 757-566-0563
*********************

We're getting butcherblock for an island. Given we're over budget, we need to find a less expensive BB slab. This has been very informative for me and I'll skip LL.

Thanks for posting, PO, and I'm sorry about your troubles.

I was going to check out LL for a project so read the responses here with interest. Thanks for letting us know. Now I too will avoid them like the plague!

In November we bought a Pronomen (birch) 48" countertop from Ikea. Unpacking it, we discovered a split/piece missing from the underside of the slab. Returned it no problem, and I must say the new once is solid, heavy, and has no cracks, splits, or voids.

I am not sure on whether I like my idea of putting it near the stove, as it's unsealed at the moment, and I don't want grease stains on it. Once it's sealed, I think it's going to be unsinkable LOL!

I think I heard that Lumber Liquidators is closing, at least in my area. Indiana

UPDATE:

Customer Service from Lumber Liquidators has contacted me today. They have refunded me for part of the project. They will also be talking to the supplier so this should not happen to future purchases. I am happy with this resolution.

I want to thank everyone who has chimed in and especially tootiepugsmom who helped me get further with this by bringing this post to their attention in the first place.

Yippee!!! Way to back each other up!. This was fascinating. I just found this today... Congrats.

Thank you for posting about this problem. I will be using this product from LL in my kitchen, and was worried about why it was offered at a too-good-to-be-true price. Fortunately for me, this fraudulent multi-species sandwiching makes the counter far more stable. Since I won't be cutting out a visible section or using it in a damp spot, it's all good.

May I suggest a few suggestions? This will be painful to read, but I offer them to you with good will.

1. Do not attempt to patch the void with any type of putty. Wood is constantly moving as it takes and gives moisture content. Putty does not. Over time, the block of putty will develop gaps to the wood, and water will be suck into those gaps by capillary action. Microbiological critters will grow, create more gap, and trap more water. The putty will eventually work loose, and look hideous.

2. Take your refund and move on to a better choice of countertop. When you expose end grain and glue joints to sink splashing, the wood will swell. There is no type of coating that will stop this short of boat hull paint. Which is to say, it can never look good without perpetual maintenance.

3. If you insist on keeping this countertop, you can fix the oak and end grain problems with a day's work. Turn the counter over and use a circular saw or router to cut them away. You will need to screw down guide rails for a smooth cut. You will also need to set the depth of the cut to preserve the top veneer of maple. And you will need to stop the cuts to preserve the veneer on the front edge of the counter. An hour's worth of careful chiseling will also be needed to remove core material in the corners.

The result of this cutting will be a 1/4+ inch space into which you can glue an apron of some solid, side grain maple. Use an exterior grade polyurethane adhesive and a dozen clamps to keep the glue lines tight. Sand the infill maple flush with the counter bottom and all of the veneer edges. ((This is just a more substantial variation of the veneer repair that someone else offered.))

4. That will make your sink your cut out as good as it can possibly be with wood. But it's still not good enough to be durable. So you will need to wipe down the sink edge and dry the area immediately after each use.

Wood countertop around a sink is not for a cook's kitchen. It is for a show kitchen. That means light usage and heavy maintenance forever, or it will turn ugly.

Cordially, Fred

GREAT NEWS, Poorowner!

I am very glad to hear that LL did step up and do the RIGHT THING. Their prices on butcher block can't be beat so I was really hoping for a good resolve since there was no way I was using a vendor that wouldn't stand behind their own product! Now I can move forward with my plan to glue together two 8ft LL butcher blocks to form one large island top that I'm going to custom router my own ogee edge into! Yipiee! :))

Fyi ~ Below is the last communication I had from LL so I guess it helps to send your complaint straight to the TOP! :) I think it says a lot that the company founder himself responded.
***************************
Lisa -

We will/do stand behind our products - this was sold as solid maple (and purchased by us with that understanding) -if it was not we will replace - we will contact the customer who posted this and correct -

Thank you
Tom Sullivan
Chairman/Founder
Lumber Liquidators, Inc
***************************

Poorowner, Another thought.... Did you talk to customer service about the LL branch that you dealt with? I hope that they have a firm word with the store that gave you such unacceptable customer service! I'm sure they must not appreciate that branch bringing down the reputation of LL corp as a whole. :(

tootiepugsmom,

First of all, YOU ROCK! Second, how are you going about gluing the two pieces of BB together? I assume you are doing something so there isn't a huge gap between the two pieces?

Thanks in advance!

I got the idea from the LumberLiquidators butcher block "customer reviews". I had been looking at different sites that offer wider width butcher blocks for islands but they are just so ridiculously expensive! I went back to look at the LL butcher block again and started reading the customer reviews and found several folks who stated that they had glued two pieces together and posted photos.

Here is a comment from the 8ft maple section. I think it's review #22......
"For the wider island we just ripped two counter tops and glued them together so we have a finished side all the way around (counter tops are only finished on one side). The seam blends right in the butcher block."

Another person said...
"We glued and biscuited two pieces to make a pennisula."

One guy posted a photo and left a review in the 8ft cherry section showing how he used it for his 6ft x 6ft island. It looks great!!

I also came aross this site where it describes how to MAKE butcher block.

http://www.extremehowto.com/xh/article.asp?article_id=60470

Although I have NO plans to make one I though I'd incorporate his instructions on how to glue the pieces together. My husband has these really long straps that have a metal tightner on them that he uses to strap down loads in the back of our truck. I was thinking we could use those to hold the butcher blocks tightly together while the glue sets? What do you think?

Has anyone out there on Gardenweb done this? Anyone, anyone? Buhler?

;)

hi tootiepugsmom, the customer service manager did tell me the regional manager will be contacted and some training will be done. They credited part of my purchase and I think it is fair resolution. I will still be using the material with my custom "fix". I don't believe in wasting good wood and the hours of labor I put into this.

I also will need to make a 36" wide x 45" long for my island from 1 8 foot piece. This is not an easy thing from my research. You will likely run into unevenless and lippage between the 2 edge. Also, I have some experience gluing these things, you need some kind of alignment aid, or it's going to slip up and down when you clamp it. And you get lippage again. That's where the biscuits comes in. I bought a cheap biscuit joiner, the tolerance may be sloppy but it will help. If you are making a piece 8 foot long, you will have to measure the flatness of each each and try to match them up. For this task, I would use the glue titebond 2 instead of titebond 3, I did not like titebond 3 drying to a very dark color. I heard titebond 2 is less waterproof but with a varnish and on the island it does not matter.

Thanks for the info! Going to read the reviews now.

Congratulations on getting a fair resolution.

Regarding cutting a long piece and gluing the pieces side-by-side, it can be a tricky process. If the butcherblock (bb) is unfinished, then it's a lot simpler as you can sand or plane the seam to smooth out the edges.

In any case, gluing up two pieces of wood is somewhat trickier than you might think. As noted, biscuits are for alignment only and don't add any strength (nor is additional strength needed for long-grain gluing). Clamping across both the top and bottom is highly recommended, if not mandatory. The reason being is that the wood will tend to bow at the seam towards the clamps if you only clamp on one side.

Even with biscuits you can get some lippage at the seam. In addition to the biscuits, or even instead of, you can use additional pieces of scrap wood to hold the main pieces together. Difficult to describe, but basically get four pieces of thick and flat scrap about 12-24" long. One pair will go above and below the seam at each end, perpendicular to the seam. You clamp the scraps together with the finished piece in-between. Use about 3 clamps per side.

If you're visualizing this with me, you'll see that the scraps and clamps are now holding the pieces of your finished piece perfectly flat and co-planar. Now add your regular clamps to pull the finish piece together and you're all set. Altogether I'd recommend 6 small clamps for your scraps, and 4 more for the main bb clamping.

Use wax paper or plastic wrap between the scraps and the finished piece to keep them from getting glued-togeher by squeeze out.

Shoot!! I should have known it wouldn't be as easy as I thought. :( I really appreacite everyone's advice and am glad to have it before I forged ahead blindly and screwed something up! I suppose I'd better get busy and figure out what the heck a "biscuit" is. And... I'm sure I'll be back for more advice. :)

By the way, below is another communication (and probably the last) from LL. I'm typically very distrusting of any large corporation but I have to say, I'm pretty impressed with LL corporates respose to the situation. I'm very comforted going forward with their products now that I know they actually DO give a rip! :)

*********************************
From: Brian Pullin (bpullin@lumberliquidators.com)
Sent: Thu 4/09/09 6:44 AM

Lisa,

Thank you for responding.

I discussed the situation after making contact with XXXXXX and remedied the problem providing him with options. He asked for a full refund and wanted to keep the product and we felt this was fair and granted the credit in full.

As you can see from the exchanges with Tom  We have eyes on the supplier and sincerely appreciate raising this problem to our attention.

We can only fix issues weÂre aware of and Customer Care reacts to every situation taking responsibility for problems where fault lies with our product, or a product supplied by a vendor. I believe XXXXXX was going to add a post showing we took care of this for him.

Thanks again and have a great day. :)

Brian Pullin
Customer Care Manager
Lumber Liquidators, Inc.
*********************************

I figure, maybe you guys might want to see how it all turned out..

here is the fix I applied which is to remove the oak I see and laminate in a piece of maple edge I cut from another piece.

Tight joint for the corner.

My little kitchen still missing island but ready to cook soon.

Poorowner, Great progress! It all looks wonderful and is taking shape. I'm glad you were able to come to some sort of closure with LL. Too much sweat equity not to. May I suggest updating your other thread? Ikea fans will want to see it all coming together.

Looks amazing! Great job, despite everything...you can't tell from the pictures.

poorowner... so glad that you were able to resolve this with LL. Your countertops look lovely! I see that you have put some sort of sealer/oil on them... may I ask what you used? We have an end grain island that I need to put something on (currently using mineral oil, but would like to use something like Waterlox)..... they look fabulous!

Hi! I am using waterlox original.

**Poorowner- I am very relieved that this turned out well. Thanks for posting photos of your finished countertop. WOW, very inspirational (esp. to a fellow DIYer). I hope you're as 'in Love' with it as when you started- sometimes drama has a way of taking the excitement away from accomplishment (for me at least). You are very talented, patient and persistent to have pulled this together. Kudos! It's gorgeous. I can't wait to see additional photos.

How did you like using the waterlox? I just used it on my pine floor- I was very impressed by the ease of use and results. I'd love to hear more about your experience in a countertop application. (Maybe even another thread with it as the subject).

Again, Congratulations in every arena. Job well done.

**Tootiepugsmom- Great job on your behalf too. (Everyone on this forum is so great- some truly standout for their efforts and generosity).Thanks, you've helped many, myself included.

*** I have a request (suggestion)- I'm not the most thread savvy when it comes to posting, pictures and the like (most of my web based stuff is done via blackberry). Could someone start another thread (or copy the above appropriate posts) RE: DIY BB islands, tips for joining standard width BB counters together, and finishing of such? Outstanding Information!

Due to the subject (and length) of this threat, It may be missed/ overlooked by many who would benefit or be able to share their personal expertise and experience.

You guys are hands down the best resource out there. Truly Priceless.

(Thanks AGAIN)-

September

Hi, the keep it brief, the Waterlox is relatively easy to use, it is my first time but much better than polyurethane. Good brush and slow strokes to keep bubbles to minimum. Buy in quarts because they gel up quickly after opening. The only thing is don't put too many coats otherwise it will be like a sheet of plastic after the 4th coat. I did 4 coats with light sanding and it still looked like wood. Very vulnerable even after a week, it dries fine but really needs time to cure.

I'm so glad it all worked out, PO. Tootiepugsmom, great work on your part!

>*** I have a request (suggestion)- I'm not the most thread savvy when it comes to posting, pictures and the like (most of my web based stuff is done via blackberry). Could someone start another thread (or copy the above appropriate posts) RE: DIY BB islands, tips for joining standard width BB counters together, and finishing of such? Outstanding Information!

September, at the upper right of each post you'll see a pair of scissors and the word "clippings." Just below that you can click on "clip this post" and that will put the post in your clippings file that you get to from your member page here. Very useful.

WOW!!! Poorowner!! I am in awe of your workmanship.

Very clever lamination work around the sink. I'm guessing that you routered out some of the oak so the maple would set flush? In any case, magnificient work. ((Applause!!)) :)

I'm so anxious to start my butcher block island project but have to get finished with the cabinets first. If no one has started a BB thread by then you can bet I will have to as I'm pretty nervous about joining those two slabs and will be here crying out for help! ;)

Well-done, Poorowner!