Just to help the thread flow, I pasted in your explanation from the prior thread. I hope you don't mind.

- - - - - -

''I built this with an old version of visio that I found lying around the house, so there are some limitations to this drawing.

Here is a tour, starting in the top center of the picture, by the dishwasher.

I have an L shaped kitchen, but one leg of the L is all windows, and therefore has no overhead cabinets, and all my "work triangle" overhead storage is a very small cabinet run.

In my current kitchen, my dishwasher is on the other side of the sink. When the dishwasher door is open, it blocks access to the lower cabinets on the adjoining leg of the L, blocks most of the access to my long "workspace" countertop, and makes access to the overhead cabinets difficult (but I can stretch and get there as I am 6 feet tall!). I HATE my current location of the dishwasher, hence it is banished to the other side of the sink. I left the sink where it was, as it will keep plumbing easier, and I don't have an unlimited budget.

Moving the dishwasher also allows me to put in a lazy susan at the corner and reclaim some currently unused lower storage space. I am not planning the diagonal corner that visio wanted to put in, just a regular L shaped cabinet. The remaining bit of lower space on that first leg of the L is going to be for a built in garbage can.

Continuing along to the second leg of the L. My current kitchen has a cabinet run and a wall oven. I have changed this to a cabinet run and a range. For the lower cabinets, on one side of the range are drawers to silverware, flippers, etc. On the other, a vertical storage cabinet for cookie sheets, etc. For my upper cabinets, I will have 39 inch tall cabinets installed at ceiling height to get the most vertical storage space possible, since I have no horizontal upper space available to speak of. The cabinets to the left of the range will have my dishes, and to the right, glasses. I imagine a water-in-the-door fridge, so glasses should be handy to that side of the kitchen.

I am very tempted to put in a ductless/recirculating range hood, to claim a bit more space above the range hood for storage.

Moving to the longer wall across from the L, I have switched the locations of my pantry and fridge. The pantry is 3 feet wide, to make sure the fridge opens out to a wider amount of floor space in the center of the kitchen. I am only somewhat satisfied with the pantry, as my current (full) pantry is 4 feet wide. But, my current fridge is in a tight squeeze between a doorway and the side of the wall oven, and it needs some more space in front of it for easy access.

Next comes the fridge.

On the other side of the fridge, I have put a run of cabinets. Currently, I have wall cabinets and a desk area there. I am getting rid of the seating along that wall and putting in base cabinets to the doorway, a counter, and wall cabinets instead. The wall cabinet next to the fridge will have a microwave shelf for nuking leftovers.

I have left a bit of wall space without cabinets at the very end to post a calendar and a phone. Or, I could center the blank wall space and put the calendar and phone in the middle for symmetry.

This counter will be a clutter magnet -- I expect it to be used for kids' projects and such, rather than as a cooking space. Currently, my kitchen desk has a model of an Egyptian dig. It is often covered with drying artworks, etc. that we have to get out of the way to eat. Alas, you can change the kitchen, but not the family that lives there.

In the center, I have an island. My current island is perpendicular to the sink and has a 36 inch downdraft cooktop with about 9 inches of counter space on the sides and maybe 12 to the rear. The counter space is not long enough to be usable, and the walking space around it feels "too tight", even without having the dishwasher door opening into it (as it does now).

The new island is parallel to the sink, has 48 inches of clearance to the legs of the L, and 36 inch clearance to the hall at the bottom of the picture. Visio wouldn't let me resize the cabinets, but if I could have, I would have drawn the island at 42 inches wide to leave more space towards the table. It is about 30 inches deep. It has a plain top, where I can set the groceries when I walk in the door. I don't have the space for a complete "two cook" kitchen, but I see the island as a second workspace for a spouse or child to help out in the kitchen.

Under the island, I have the left half sketched as drawers opening towards the dishwasher. The drawers will hold kitchen towels, bread, coffee, and filters. The toaster and coffee maker will be on the counter over the dishwasher. They are there today. I do not have a drawer deep enough for a loaf of bread near there now, and the sun beating in that wall of windows makes the bread go bad quickly.

The right half of the island will have doors opening towards the range, with pots and pans stored behind.

Finally, the kitchen table is sketched at it's current size, location, and seating arrangement. One thing to note is that the left side of the table also functions as a hallway to the sliding doors to the deck, and gets lots of traffic when the weather is nice. The sliding door to the deck opens on the left.

Thanks for reading all this and for any suggestions for improvement.

I'm also looking for software reviews for sub-100 dollar kitchen design software.''

I like the design. It seems neat and logical. You have a nice-sized prep zone between sink and range, it doesn't overlap w/ the cook zone, prep and cook zones are shielded from traffic, the microwave is next to the refrigerator which makes sense to me, and you've thought out what goes where. It seems like a design that will work well.

I might try to get a larger pantry by shrinking the counter run that will be an archeological dig anyway.

I might also try to get a little bit wider island by stealing a few inches from the 48.0'' aisle (many will disagree) or by lengthening the island a bit (perhaps the eat-in table can be set against the family room wall, and the door to the deck changed to open on the right).

Alternatively, you could plan to set the table up against the island, or even have a long eat-on island. The point is that currently you are accomodating two traffic aisles, one on each side of the table. If you had just one aisle, it could be a plenty wide aisle while giving you a bit more counter/work space.

Will you vent the range hood straight up through the attic? Or will you need a soffit above the small corner window?

I wonder how the small corner window will look. Will it look squeezed-back by the upper cabinets? You might consider some open (glass?) shelves in front of that window, to sort of pull the depth forward. That's just a visual thing.

Come to think of it, what do you plan to keep in the upper cabinets on either side of the range? If just glasses, could you find some other place for that storage (e.g. a shallow but pretty wall of glass-front cabinets on the wall adjoining the family room) and try having no upper cabinets at all in the core of the kitchen? It might be an attractive look, to have a striking range hood not hemmed-in by flanking uppers. Well, something to think about anyway.

Will the lazy susan be the type where the doors rotate with the susan, allowing the largest possible susan with the easiest possible access?

You've drawn doors in some of the lower cabinets. Drawers might be more convenient.

Where is dish storage - near the dishwasher?

Just some random thoughts. Again, I like the design.

Thanks for the feedback...

I might try to get a larger pantry by shrinking the counter run that will be an archeological dig anyway.

I was really aiming for getting fridge doors to be as close the island as possible without overlapping, which limits the total pantry + fridge wall space.

I might also try to get a little bit wider island by stealing a few inches from the 48.0'' aisle

Yes, I'm waiting for my new software before playing with that level of detail.

The point is that currently you are accomodating two traffic aisles, one on each side of the table. If you had just one aisle, it could be a plenty wide aisle while giving you a bit more counter/work space.

I've been noticing that, too. I made another floor plan that is more of a u-shaped kitchen, which eliminates some extra flow patterns into the kitchen. Bumping the table against the U would further simplify traffic, but leaving that squeeze-by space would probably be more comfortable for the person sitting in that corner. See below!

Will you vent the range hood straight up through the attic? Or will you need a soffit above the small corner window?

There is a soffit above the long window wall, but right now I have tall cabinets with no soffit above on the adjoining wall. For now, that's an issue that's going to wait until I start bringing in contractors.

I wonder how the small corner window will look. Will it look squeezed-back by the upper cabinets?

Now that you mention it, it does look squeezed-back, though it's nice when you're standing at that counter working.

Come to think of it, what do you plan to keep in the upper cabinets on either side of the range? If just glasses, could you find some other place for that storage (e.g. a shallow but pretty wall of glass-front cabinets on the wall adjoining the family room) and try having no upper cabinets at all in the core of the kitchen?

It's not a wall, it's an open railing, and no, a no-upper-cabinets core is just not practical for a busy family kitchen. We homeschool, so the kitchen prepares three family or mom-and-kids meals a day. I need practical!

Will the lazy susan be the type where the doors rotate with the susan, allowing the largest possible susan with the easiest possible access?

Thanks for the tip! I'll look for that when it's time to order cabinets.

You've drawn doors in some of the lower cabinets. Drawers might be more convenient.

That's an issue that's going to be played with when I get the Chief Architect software and can draw both side and top views of a layout.

Where is dish storage - near the dishwasher?

I wish. It's those overhead cabinets on the other leg of the L, and what doesn't fit goes by the microwave. (Mostly plastic storage ware today.) That's the main downside to moving the DW and putting in the lazy susan. At least the DW is close to the table for loading dishes after dinner.

Here is the u-shaped kitchen option. The island is now joined to the first leg of the wall.

{{gwi:1727612}}

Advantages - closing off that corner and making a U reduces traffic patterns to worry about. I get my 4 foot pantry back, and the fridge keeps its front clearance. The DW is now close to the dishes. Original counter is longer, plus a small (but oddly shaped) new counter between cooktop and sink. Garbage cans centrally located for both kitchen and kid-project trash.

Disadvantages - Lost space for the lazy susan. The under counter area to the left of the sink is dead space. There's barely room for a 10 inch cabinet door into the blind corner. Dishwasher door again blocks access to those lower cabinets. Counter space is blocked as well, but that is less of an issue as there is space to move down now. Quick path from dining table to clean up station now blocked by half-wall. Higher costs for new appliances - built-ins versus range.

I'm no kitchen designer as I've made painfully obvious today! I would say janet that you mentioned having several children - I really love having a nice sized peninsula for them to sit and do homework or visit while I'm cooking dinner - If it was my kitchen I would take your first plan and connect the island to the end of the cabinets to form a peninsula where you could put a few small stools - it also comes in handy when we entertain for platters and such - not to mention it's a perfect spot for baking, rolling out dough etc.

But I suppose it gets back to figuring out how you use your space - hopefully one of these experts will way in!

I like the first plan but as mentioned, you could steal alittle aisle space to enlarge the island.

Also try to keep the stove on an outside wall so the vent run will be easy. I've got a 11' run of 8" pipe that's been problematic in my build.

I also tried to keep dish/drinkware storage nearby the dishwasher so I could fire items straight to the shelf from the dishwasher rack.

{{gwi:1727613}}

I don't know if any of this will be helpful.

bmorepanic - That is so clever! You solved the dishes by the dishwasher problem beautifully.

I ordered Chief Architect, and I'm going to put my ideas in there so I can see more than a top level view soon. I'll definitely be playing around with this idea some.